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Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:49 pm  |
| Starting a thread so we can talk about the pros and cons of low molecular weight HA. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:01 pm |
I use a mixture of regular and ultra low MW HA. They each have their charms.
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-22/moisturizer%2C-humectant-%2Cwound-healing/Detail.bok
ULMW HA penetrates skin better but doesnt thicken a serum like regular MW HA does.
Both are so easy to work with that its a shame to buy HA serums... formula is on the link above for making an easypeasy 1% HA Serum.
I am not affiliated with SEA in any way nor do I receive compensation from them. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:18 pm |
This is what Skinactives says abut LMW HA:
"We at Skin Actives use the "real thing", high molecular weight hyaluronic acid (a.k.a. hyaluronan). Low molecular weight stuff is not hyaluronan by definition and is known to cause inflammation (don't ask me why some skin care companies use the fragments)." |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:50 pm |
Then the question is, can the same results be had with high molecular weight ha?
Would ultrasound make it penetrate the skin? |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:02 pm |
Im not sure I understand the pro-inflammatory argument about ULWHA. Can anyone explain/post a link??
This is what Bulkactives sez:
"Low molecular weight hyaluronic acid prevents oxygen free radical damage to granulation tissue during wound healing.
Trabucchi E, Pallotta S, Morini M, Corsi F, Franceschini R, Casiraghi A, Pravettoni A, Foschi D, Minghetti P. Wound Healing Center, Erba Voglio Foundation, Brescia, Italy.
"Hyaluronic acid protects granulation tissue from oxygen free radical damage and stimulates wound healing, but its molecular weight prevents it from permeating the epidermal barrier A low molecular weight hyaluronic acid preparation is able to permeate the skin, but it is unknown whether or not it retains the scavenging effects of oxygen free radicals in granulation tissue. Our experiments were conducted in rats with excisional or incisional wounds. Wound contraction over 11 days and breaking strength on the fifth day were measured. Oxygen free radical production was induced by intraperitoneal administration of two different xenobiotics: phenazine methosulfate and zymosan. The wounds were treated topically with low molecular weight hyaluronic acid (0.2%) cream or placebo. In the incisional wound group, the effects of superoxide dismutase were also determined. Absolute controls received wounds and placebo but no xenobiotics. Wound healing was significantly slower in the xenobiotic group than in the control groups. These effects were strongly reduced by topical administration of low molecular weight hyaluronic acid (0.2%) cream and in incisional wounds by topically injected superoxide dismutase. Low molecular weight hyaluronic acid is effective as the native compound against oxygen free radicals. Its pharmacological effects through transdermal administration should be tested in appropriate models."
http://www.bulkactives.com/ulmwnah.htm |
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✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:11 pm |
| daler wrote: |
This is what Skinactives says abut LMW HA:
"We at Skin Actives use the "real thing", high molecular weight hyaluronic acid (a.k.a. hyaluronan). Low molecular weight stuff is not hyaluronan by definition and is known to cause inflammation (don't ask me why some skin care companies use the fragments)." |
She also says this about fillers and lasers. Yes there are safety issues and you need to go to someone who knows what they are doing but lots of people love their fillers and they CAN at least slow if not stop temporarily how the aging process affects your skin. I like Hannah but I don't think she is right about everything.
Does anyone know what size molecules/weight are the fillers that are injected? Just wondering.
You can't stop the process with hyaluronic acid injections, but you can end up with a deformed face. At 27, it is too early to risk your entire face for a wrinkle that you can "fix" by smiling.
Please note that injections (of hyaluronic acid or whatever), laser treatments, plastic surgery, have some probability, sometimes very high, of going wrong.
http://www.skinactives.com/Skin-Actives-Discussion-Forum.html |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:34 pm |
| Gah. Doom & Gloom Hannah. Im sure she has never/would never get fillers! |
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✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:53 pm |
well, I cant say for sure about LMW HA being pro inflammatory or not but I do believe her until proven otherwsie...
anyways, I have used both, my skin felt more moisturized with HMW than with LMW, however I am not using any at the moment.
One benefit of using LMW HA is that it will not thicken your serums like the HMW HA would. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:56 pm |
I don't have the link handy but yesterday I read somewhere that the body has 1/3 of the lower weight HA and 2/3 of the regular HA in it. I would think if the lower weight was so bad why does the body have so much of it? Sorry I read so many things and didn't save all the links.  |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:05 pm |
| CookieD wrote: |
| I don't have the link handy but yesterday I read somewhere that the body has 1/3 of the lower weight HA and 2/3 of the regular HA in it. I would think if the lower weight was so bad why does the body have so much of it? Sorry I read so many things and didn't save all the links. |
This does make sense but e.g. our bodies also have hydrogen peroxide and super oxide ( they do perform imp functions as a part of body's defense system, asaik) , it does not mean that they should be applied on skin. Having said this, LMWHA may v well be safe n useful, we just need to get more info on this from credible sources .
And dont worry about not having links, I almost never have em, thank u for sharing what you read n knew! |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:48 am |
To Daler's point, here is some info I found on the small size HA possibly causing inflammation. However, the key word is "possibly"....sounds like some pubmed research is in order.
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Skin irritation and inflammation
Hyaluronic acid is a polymer and the size of its molecules (chains) may vary in a wide range. Depending on the size, HA chains may produce different physiological effects. In particular, relatively large HA chains (molecular weight 500,000 Da or more) appear to reduce inflammatory response. There is some evidence that topically applied HA can reduce skin irritation from various causes (such as retinoids, laser treatments, chemical peels and others). Unfortunately, as of the time of this writing, very few studies investigated HA as a topical anti-irritant. Further research is required to determine optimal HA concentrations and usage patterns for specific conditions. (The concentrations studied so far ranged from 0.1% to 2.5%.)
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Wrinkles
The content of hyaluronic acid in the skin matrix decreases with age, which may contribute to the development of fine lines, wrinkles and other signs of aging. Hence there is a considerable enthusiasm in the media about topical HA as a potential wrinkle cure. At present, such hopes appear exaggerated at best. HA variants typically used in skin care have relatively long chains (molecular weight 500,000 Da or more) and seem unlikely to penetrate the skin well enough to affect dermal matrix. A small size variant of HA (5,000 - 20,000 Daltons) may penetrate better but there is a catch. Small size HA appears to promote certain inflammatory responses, i.e. in that regard it has the opposite effect to large size HA, which is anti-inflammatory. Therefore, even if small size HA can penetrate the skin, it may not be a good skin rejuvenation agent. (To learn more, see our our introductory article on HA.) More research is needed to determine whether any form of topical HA is useful in treating fine line and wrinkles.
http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/hyaluronic-acid.html |
From the intro article that was mentioned above:
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But can topical HA go beyond moisturizing? Can it penetrate into the dermis and help rebuild the skin matrix? Generally, large molecules do not penetrate the skin or do so in very small amounts. Most likely, medium-to-large size HA molecules (perhaps with molecular weight above 20,000 Da) won't penetrate sufficiently to have an impact on the skin matrix. However, small size HA (5,000 - 20,000 Da) may penetrate into the dermis in significant amounts. However, this may not necessarily be a good thing. Assuming small size HA molecules penetrate into the dermis, they are likely to trigger some elements of the wound healing response (as we discussed above), such as immune activation, inflammation, cell division, blood vessel growth, new skin matrix synthesis and so forth. The net effect might be either matrix degradation and accelerated skin aging or matrix remodeling and improved skin texture. Studies are required to answer this question.
http://www.smartskincare.com/skinbiology/skinbiology_hyaluronic-acid.html |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:14 am |
| the info above is interesting; may be LMW HA should be applied for a brief period of time to induce inflammation which would/may cause skin remodeling, may be like skin needling ... |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:26 am |
| daler wrote: |
| the info above is interesting; may be LMW HA should be applied for a brief period of time to induce inflammation which would/may cause skin remodeling, may be like skin needling ... |
Except for the big OR in the middle of his statement:
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| The net effect might be either matrix degradation and accelerated skin aging OR matrix remodeling and improved skin texture. Studies are required to answer this question. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:36 am |
| I wonder if Squoom has any clinical studies since their gels use the lower weight HA. Anybody know? |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:43 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| daler wrote: |
| the info above is interesting; may be LMW HA should be applied for a brief period of time to induce inflammation which would/may cause skin remodeling, may be like skin needling ... |
Except for the big OR in the middle of his statement:
| Quote: |
| The net effect might be either matrix degradation and accelerated skin aging OR matrix remodeling and improved skin texture. Studies are required to answer this question. |
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lol, yes.. but eg if skin needling is used daily it would also degrade the matrix instead of modelling it... just thinking out loud. |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:50 am |
| I just remembered reading on some site re scar reduction, a surgeon's office recommended using a serum containing LMW HA right after the surgery for sometime, may be they knew something re LMW HA ability to remodel skin ( if used for a brief period time)! |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:03 am |
Cross posting this great (but scary) study that Cookie found:
The key point is that if you are using LWM HA, you need to make sure it is the right size or you could be creating inflammation which contributes to faster aging. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:31 am |
Wouldn't it be helpful to find out which kind of HA is used in the Sqoom serums?
Chick is a firm with a solid reputation - I guess they tested the stuff befor marketing it. |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:17 am |
excuse me if it's not related to the topic of the thread but I dont want to start another HA thread and I really wanted to share the following:
fragmented or not, Dr. Pikart's opinion on HA is that it's not good for skin ( unless it changed in the last few years, I stopped following him), reason being that HA ll keep the skin wet all the time and this cant be good for it.. i stopped using all HA products after I read this years ago , till I discoverer skinactives. I am not using any HA at the moment as my DIY is 100% oil mix. I am thinking of incorporating HA into my skincare regimen again but I really didnt notice any difference while I used it in the past, I have used both versions of HA ( yes even one with less than 50 k Dalton! ).  |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:51 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
Wouldn't it be helpful to find out which kind of HA is used in the Sqoom serums?
Chick is a firm with a solid reputation - I guess they tested the stuff befor marketing it. |
I am sending them an email today asking exactly that....I'll keep you posted! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:55 am |
| daler wrote: |
excuse me if it's not related to the topic of the thread but I dont want to start another HA thread and I really wanted to share the following:
fragmented or not, Dr. Pikart's opinion on HA is that it's not good for skin ( unless it changed in the last few years, I stopped following him), reason being that HA ll keep the skin wet all the time and this cant be good for it.. i stopped using all HA products after I read this years ago , till I discoverer skinactives. I am not using any HA at the moment as my DIY is 100% oil mix. I am thinking of incorporating HA into my skincare regimen again but I really didnt notice any difference while I used it in the past, I have used both versions of HA ( yes even one with less than 50 k Dalton! ). |
I agree about continuously overwetting the skin barrier, but if you are penetrating the HA with a device like the Sqoom I think that part become less relevant? |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:05 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| daler wrote: |
excuse me if it's not related to the topic of the thread but I dont want to start another HA thread and I really wanted to share the following:
fragmented or not, Dr. Pikart's opinion on HA is that it's not good for skin ( unless it changed in the last few years, I stopped following him), reason being that HA ll keep the skin wet all the time and this cant be good for it.. i stopped using all HA products after I read this years ago , till I discoverer skinactives. I am not using any HA at the moment as my DIY is 100% oil mix. I am thinking of incorporating HA into my skincare regimen again but I really didnt notice any difference while I used it in the past, I have used both versions of HA ( yes even one with less than 50 k Dalton! ). |
I agree about continuously overwetting the skin barrier, but if you are penetrating the HA with a device like the Sqoom I think that part become less relevant? |
 m, i really dont know if Dr pikart had skin barrier in mind.. what I recall is that he mentioned that HA will keep the skin in repair mode all the time as the skin would think it's wet and try to recover to normal state.. or something like this, I read this years ago.
Also, even if sqoom is able to penetrate HA deeper, i dont think it means that there wont be any HA left on the surface. |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:24 pm |
From what I've read, the skin changes during your life, and peri- and postmenopausal skin really lacks HA. That's a problem you try to solve with all kinds of HA-stimulating actives, where basically it's a lack of oestrogen that causes the production of HA in the skin to slow down dramatically.
IMO adding 'some' HA, delivering it in the deeper layers where the skin used to make it naturally, could give good results. Not only moisture wise, but maybe also stimulating other processes that have slowed down because the skin was too dry.
Just guessing. But if there is one thing I learned, it's that 'skin' is a very general term - gender and age are big influences. Maybe the Sqoom was developed with this moisture-depleted ageing skin in mind. |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:25 pm |
| Lotus..very good points. I am going to do a search for some of the Sqoom Clinical info and see if they have any more info available. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:44 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
From what I've read, the skin changes during your life, and peri- and postmenopausal skin really lacks HA. That's a problem you try to solve with all kinds of HA-stimulating actives, where basically it's a lack of oestrogen that causes the production of HA in the skin to slow down dramatically.
IMO adding 'some' HA, delivering it in the deeper layers where the skin used to make it naturally, could give good results. Not only moisture wise, but maybe also stimulating other processes that have slowed down because the skin was too dry.
Just guessing. But if there is one thing I learned, it's that 'skin' is a very general term - gender and age are big influences. Maybe the Sqoom was developed with this moisture-depleted ageing skin in mind. |
Hi Lotus,
I think you'll enjoy this study on how the structure & function of the skin, changes and revolves throughout our lifetime.
http://manu.edu.mk/prilozi/7k.pdf |
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