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Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:26 pm  |
| bethany wrote: |
Since Sis reminded us up above that we need to stay on topic within threads, I am going to please ask that any future replies regarding cancer go on the "Cancer Prevention" thread. I think one thread on that topic is probably enough since it has been so heated.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=49362 |
I have to agree with this; even though it was my opinion that posts about 'makeshift Pico Toners' were related to the topic at hand, the moderators and Pico users did not agree; hence this very thread. Therefore having this thread go so far 'off topic' is hardly fair. |
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Photo taken Oct 28, 2013: http://bit.ly/17Umeou |
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Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:31 pm |
| Definitely Angela - we should stick to the topic. I was just responding to Panos. It's okay if you report the posts and ask the mods to move them over ... I am not posting over there anymore; my words were being twisted... You can't have a lively conversation with people who don't want to hear from the other side. |
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Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:33 pm |
| aprile wrote: |
| Definitely Angela - we should stick to the topic. I was just responding to Panos. It's okay if you report the posts and ask the mods to move them over .. |
I'm not really the "reporting" type. I simply think we should get back 'on topic' here and anything further about cancer can be said on the other thread. If someone thinks that these posts should be there too, they can simply "quote" them there. That should be good enough.  |
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Photo taken Oct 28, 2013: http://bit.ly/17Umeou |
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Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:34 pm |
Okay sounds good to me... we can stick to the topic now.  |
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Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:43 pm |
| AngelaE8654 wrote: |
| aprile wrote: |
| Definitely Angela - we should stick to the topic. I was just responding to Panos. It's okay if you report the posts and ask the mods to move them over .. |
I'm not really the "reporting" type. I simply think we should get back 'on topic' here and anything further about cancer can be said on the other thread. If someone thinks that these posts should be there too, they can simply "quote" them there. That should be good enough. |
Angela - you are experiencing how Easily our dear topics can get 'off' topic - The name of the topic is WHAT should be discussed - not something else. You are a new poster and actively involved so you will quickly understand. And now I will apologize for derailing and bow out in hopes of further great topic discussion. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:51 pm |
| sister sweets wrote: |
| Angela - you are experiencing how Easily our dear topics can get 'off' topic - The name of the topic is WHAT should be discussed - not something else. You are a new poster and actively involved so you will quickly understand. And now I will apologize for derailing and bow out in hopes of further great topic discussion. |
I have a friend who calls that sort of thing "rabbit trailing" because the talk is 'going down a rabbit trail' and we women (at least I and my friends) do it all the time. I can totally understand wanting to keep the threads on topic as they are also often read by lurkers and people who find us online and those people don't want "off topic" discussions on the threads. |
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Photo taken Oct 28, 2013: http://bit.ly/17Umeou |
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Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:31 pm |
With relation to the faradic current, it appears the Neutrosis machines also have it:
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The SX-3500 is preprogrammed with 6 presets for true facial sculpting (oxygenation, refine NANO (deep fine line removal), refine PICO (superficial fine line removal), toning, face lifting (sculpting), Iontophoresis (product penetration) and detoxification. Each preset is comprised of 100´s of frequencies to make a specific signature for each program. The SX-3500 uses Galvanic, Faradic, Biphasic, Sine waves, Square waves, DC Positive, and DC negative potentials for achieving unique, specific sculpting benefits for each program.
http://www.neurotris.com/sx-3500.html |
My old "professional" machine also had a faradic mode and the leads had heads which looked like the Tua Viso with positive and negative probes - these are used to contract the muscle.
This site clearly states that faradic current is EMS and that it can be used on the face:
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:03 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
With relation to the faradic current, it appears the Neutrosis machines also have it:
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The SX-3500 is preprogrammed with 6 presets for true facial sculpting (oxygenation, refine NANO (deep fine line removal), refine PICO (superficial fine line removal), toning, face lifting (sculpting), Iontophoresis (product penetration) and detoxification. Each preset is comprised of 100´s of frequencies to make a specific signature for each program. The SX-3500 uses Galvanic, Faradic, Biphasic, Sine waves, Square waves, DC Positive, and DC negative potentials for achieving unique, specific sculpting benefits for each program.
http://www.neurotris.com/sx-3500.html |
My old "professional" machine also had a faradic mode and the leads had heads which looked like the Tua Viso with positive and negative probes - these are used to contract the muscle.
This site clearly states that faradic current is EMS and that it can be used on the face:
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This says the same thing as the "EMS for athletes" link I posted the other day; the brain doesn't recognize the difference between manual contraction of muscles and electrical contraction. It simply recognizes the stimuli.
That link has some great information. |
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Photo taken Oct 28, 2013: http://bit.ly/17Umeou |
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havana8
Moderator
 
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
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Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:17 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| CookieD wrote: |
To be FDA cleared like Pico is, just means that you have a device that is like a product that is already being marketed for the same use. (ie: other microcurrent machines) It doesn't have anything to do with safety or being proven to work.
http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/Transparency/Basics/ucm194460.htm |
I think Lacy did quite allot of research on this topic, so she would be the best person to comment - but from what I remember, microcurrent and EMS come under the same categorisation - they're not treated as separate modalities. Further, the Pico is not registered in the same category as the NuFace - Neutrosis chose the less stringent option. Hopefully, Lacy will elaborate on this. |
Not sure but this might be the post from Lacy that you were thinking of: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6509874#6509874 |
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Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:13 pm |
I'm really eager to hear other people's experiences with a makeshift Pico. I currently own a Nuface Trinity and New Spa Mini microcurrent device.
Currently as a student, I'm unable to afford the Pico Toner. I'm looking for a device that can target and lift the cheek area. I am interested in Faradic EMS and I have turned up the New Spa to 4 o 5. In doing so, it caused my cheek and lower orbicularis oculi to contract...it was very similar to the Tua Viso video on youtube. However, the thing that I did not like was the timing of the contractions. The New Spa was very fast and it gave me a slightly stinging sensation in the skin. |
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Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:41 pm |
| Cocoa_Crema wrote: |
I'm really eager to hear other people's experiences with a makeshift Pico. I currently own a Nuface Trinity and New Spa Mini microcurrent device.
Currently as a student, I'm unable to afford the Pico Toner. I'm looking for a device that can target and lift the cheek area. I am interested in Faradic EMS and I have turned up the New Spa to 4 o 5. In doing so, it caused my cheek and lower orbicularis oculi to contract...it was very similar to the Tua Viso video on youtube. However, the thing that I did not like was the timing of the contractions. The New Spa was very fast and it gave me a slightly stinging sensation in the skin. |
I think with most machines you can change the timing. I'm not too "techie" so the instructions have to be pretty clear for me but I am pretty sure that most of them have methods to change the timing and the strength of the contractions and that sort of thing. |
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Photo taken Oct 28, 2013: http://bit.ly/17Umeou |
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Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:34 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
This site clearly states that faradic current is EMS and that it can be used on the face:
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We could use a hammer on our face, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
EMS targets "nerve endings"
True Microcurrent targets "cells"
Most facial muscles are attached to skin and/or other muscles... Using a device that (involuntarily) causes the facial muscles to contact over and over again, will not do a bloody thing, to rejuvinate your face.
If you target the "cells" on the other hand, with true low intensity microcurrent, you have a good chance of activating those cells, to produce more ATP.
It's a healthy and robust amount of ATP, that is the real building block for facial rejuvination...and collagen production.
Just MHO... |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:54 pm |
Kassy, I think you benefit from both. Since I am using the cheapo microcurrent device, that is supposed to stimulate the amount of ATP, I can't help but notice that my once-a-week Ageless session seems to be more effective. And I use the biowave on the 2 position, because I hate being zapped.
My impression is, that microcurrent will make muscle more susceptible to the effects of exercise. And exercise may be ordinary facial exercise, or contractions caused by electricity (which btw seems to me to be much more uncomfortable than resistance exercises).
But maybe I am wrong, this is just my impression. |
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Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:06 pm |
Hey Lotus
Chances are, if you hate being zapped, you aren't engaging an "involuntary" muscle contraction with your device...
Facial exercise is entirely different because you are "controlling" the contraction.. AND you are working with "resistance" which is key.
The other plus with FE is all of that lovely increase in your circulation. You can't get the same effect by simply engaging nerve endings.. |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:00 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
This site clearly states that faradic current is EMS and that it can be used on the face:
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We could use a hammer on our face, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
EMS targets "nerve endings"
True Microcurrent targets "cells"
Most facial muscles are attached to skin and/or other muscles... Using a device that (involuntarily) causes the facial muscles to contact over and over again, will not do a bloody thing, to rejuvinate your face.
If you target the "cells" on the other hand, with true low intensity microcurrent, you have a good chance of activating those cells, to produce more ATP.
It's a healthy and robust amount of ATP, that is the real building block for facial rejuvination...and collagen production.
Just MHO... |
The Tua Viso contracts the muscles of the face - that's is sole purpose. I'm not going to argue with your statement that it "will not do a bloody thing" because it didn't do much for me. But, nevertheless, it IS marketed for facial rejuvenation - and many people swear by it. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:07 am |
The Slendertone Face is another device which uses EMS:
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Slendertone Face is a revolutionary anti-aging product, harnessing EMS toning technology to work your facial muscles.
Regular, at home use of the product boosts muscle volume which in turn lifts and plumps the skin smoothing out the surface to reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles.
In addition to building muscle volume and lifting the face; the increase in blood flow improves the condition of the skin and gives a radiant complexion.
http://www.slendertone.com.au/slendertone-face |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:16 am |
If we build muscle through EMS, why aren't bodybuilders standing inside a life size EMS unit-certainly it would less stressful than lifting weights....I mean really, I don't get it...
BFG |
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Not Affiliated with any products or gadgets, encourage other posters here to state their affiliations in their signature line |
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:34 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
If we build muscle through EMS, why aren't bodybuilders standing inside a life size EMS unit-certainly it would less stressful than lifting weights....I mean really, I don't get it...
BFG |
I thought that EMS was supposed to exercise the muscles of the face in the same way as lifting weights exercises the body. And that it was the exercising of the facial muscles that was supposed to "bulk" up the face making it appear fuller. I should also say that I have used the Slendertone Face  and hated it. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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particlezen
New Member
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 2
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:42 am |
| some clinical evidence.... as i cannot post links, please google the title "Use of a neuromuscular electrical stimulation device for facial muscle toning: a randomized, controlled trial." |
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:48 am |
Just read through it - the online synopsis doesn't indicate which exact device was used - also, that muscular thickness increased, but no details as to how much it increased, that would be an important detail if we had it.
BFG |
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Not Affiliated with any products or gadgets, encourage other posters here to state their affiliations in their signature line |
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Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:41 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
I thought that EMS was supposed to exercise the muscles of the face in the same way as lifting weights exercises the body. And that it was the exercising of the facial muscles that was supposed to "bulk" up the face making it appear fuller. I should also say that I have used the Slendertone Face and hated it. |
Interesting point.
Some things I’ve wondered about.
I don’t understand how women who say they’ve used EMS or microcurrent etc (whatever) for a long period of time but yet still have a lot of loose facial skin.
None of these devices help with facial/chin/neck skin elasticity; is that what the conclusion is???
I met up with a few friends of one of my sisters (informal social), women (mostly in their late forties-fifties/ I think [?]) who swear by and to their EMS/micro current gadgets they say they’ve been using for a very long time (years) and their faces looked & seemed *toned* yet during our conversation, when they pushed the one side of their face upward, there was a lot of visible, what I call loose-skin, bunching upward as well. When they’d *let go*, skin relaxed and faces returned to seeming to look toned. And I noticed that two of the women had visibly loose skin under their chins and necks. One woman, also, in conjunction with the use of a body micro current device (?), builds her body >arm muscles with body-building exercises but the underside of arms, esp near her shoulders, is rife w/ a whole lot of loose skin that actually dangles. Top arm is muscular > under arms is flabby. (strange to me) Of course, I didn’t want to say anything about all my observations as they were all stressing their great results, (didn’t wanna rain on their parade) but it does make me wonder about the efficacy of *it* all.
TENS, microcurrent, EMS, all so confusing to me but the encounter made me think of Keliu’s comment that I read some time back (above – re- facial muscle building) & BFG’s question and comment >
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
If we build muscle through EMS, why aren't bodybuilders standing inside a life size EMS unit-certainly it would less stressful than lifting weights....I mean really, I don't get it...
BFG
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Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:02 am |
The facial muscle exercise should be able to do more than building that muscle, namely shorten the muscle as well. If that effect takes place, then obviously tightening will be observed.
I am curious to test Tua Trend, does anyone want to resell/borrow/rent her device? I am in Europe.
TIA, Light |
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52 years, sagging sucks |
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Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:16 am |
| Kath91 wrote: |
| TENS, microcurrent, EMS, all so confusing to me but the encounter made me think of Keliu’s comment that I read some time back (above – re- facial muscle building) & BFG’s question and comment |
Often, people see what they want to see, related to how much of their own resources they've devoted (time, money or a combination)....
This is why independent analysis is helpful.
BFG |
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Not Affiliated with any products or gadgets, encourage other posters here to state their affiliations in their signature line |
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Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:17 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Often, people see what they want to see, related to how much of their own resources they've devoted (time, money or a combination)....
This is why independent analysis is helpful.
BFG |
Agreed. I'm still interested in the claims that microcurrent can instantly plump the skin and, more particularly, the lips. Biologically, what is happening here? The only thing I can think of is that fluid is being brought to the area. When I use the Vaculifter the face turns quite red from blood being "sucked" to the surface - plumping is slight and only lasts minutes. The blood soon subsides. Therefore, I don't understand how microcurrent can have a lasting plumping effect. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:44 pm |
| Keliu - take this for what it's worth. I have used facial exercise for years as a means to lift my face and even plump my lips. Facercise worked great for years... In my fifties, I stared to notice that the exercises made my face appear a little more gaunt in the lower cheek area. However, with the introduction of microcurrent (even the cheapie unit I first owned), I could lift the face without sacrificing volume (what little I had.) I don't know exactly why so I would be guessing, but the silver gloves do plump up the lower cheek area and can also plump the lips quite nicely. I even found a trick to make the top lip have more of an upward curve by pushing up with both gloves side by side exposing the inside of the upper lip and holding for 40 seconds. I can only guess this is due to increased circulation, but since I've been using microcurrent since end of May, beginning of June (six months), it's lasting all day now. Even without this new trick my lips are still more plump than when I started doing microcurrent treatments. So it really does work! ~ Aprile |
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