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Discussion to create BEST, EVIDENCE BASED SKIN CARE REGIME
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William89
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Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:18 am      Reply with quote
Theres an abundance of articles on the internet reviewing numerous cosmetic products, as well as numerous studies published on PubMed revealing which ingredients really help to improve the skin. But theres limited information to show what the most logical skin regime would be to incorporate these ingredients. So we as consumers have to decide on 1 or 2 products which we hope best incorporate those effective ingredients from an overwhelming choice, while others use too many products to try and include them all, and do more harm than good.

So I thought it would be great if we could come to some sort of agreed group agreement of what the best skin care regime would be, as to best include the most effective ingredients to improve skin health without overdoing it. We can then collectively construct a staple skin regime than many of us can try to follow, based on sound collective knowledge and logic.

It may seem to obsessive to do so, but from having a personal background in holistic health and biochemistry, I make sure that everything I do involving my health the most effective possible. I believe that if we are deciding to take the time and money to improve and maintain our health, we should make sure our attempt to to do so is based on having the very best knowledge possible. That way we can get the very best results, and avoid spending unnecessary amounts of money on an abundance of different products.

If possible it would be great if people from a professional background in cosmetics, dermatology and biochemistry could mainly join in this discussion, to ensure the we use an evidence based scientific approach to creating the best skin care regime

As a starting point I've posted my skin care regime below that I've been following for a few months now. The products are chosen based on proven effectiveness from published studies on PubMed.

My only concern with using the following products are using too many ingredients at once, which may cause inflammation/ irritation. Its basically a balancing act to incorporate the best ingredients without overdoing it, and then potentially causing more harm than good.


Morning

Kind To Skin Purifying Cleansing Lotion, washed with water

Kind To Skin Soothing Facial Toner

Topical Skin RNA blend. (Filtered water with RNA nucleotides. Improves levels of RNA nucleotides in skin, preventing DNA degradation and optimising healthy gene expression). Apply 3 drops to face.

Mito-Q serum (prevents oxidative damage inside mitochondria of skin cells, reducing ageing and increasing collagen production)

*** Wait 5-10 minutes to absorb ***

Balance Vitamin C Elixir Serum (Reduce oxidative damage. Increase collagen. Improve texture.)

*** Wait 5-10 minutes to absorb ***

Silkia Camellia Oil (Hydrates. Improves water retention. Allows absorption of other ingredients. Good anti-inflammatory)

*** Wait 15 minutes ***

Nia24 Skin Strengthening Complex (Improves skin texture + fine lines. Good anti-inflammatory)

Soltan SPF30 sunscreen (when necessary as I currently mainly work from home due to recovering from ill health, and have UV filters installed on windows)


Evening

Same as morning

(ive omitted using prescription stretch retinoids as they currently don't agree with my skin due to my temporary low levels of metabolism + methylation)


Thanks, I'm looking forward to seeing what we can collectively come up with.
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Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:10 pm      Reply with quote
imho, it has to start with basics:

Vitamin A (as tolerated - a tolerable dose of retinol or retinyl is better than an irritating dose of Retin-A)
Vitamin C with supporting ingredients like ferulic acid)
B vitamins like panthenol, niacinamide etc.

Sunscreen

Nutritional support
Drinking fresh pure water
Exercise
Face exercise

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Tiptoedancer
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Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:04 pm      Reply with quote
William89 wrote:
Theres an abundance of articles on the internet reviewing numerous cosmetic products, as well as numerous studies published on PubMed revealing which ingredients really help to improve the skin. But theres limited information to show what the most logical skin regime would be to incorporate these ingredients. So we as consumers have to decide on 1 or 2 products which we hope best incorporate those effective ingredients from an overwhelming choice, while others use too many products to try and include them all, and do more harm than good.

So I thought it would be great if we could come to some sort of agreed group agreement of what the best skin care regime would be, as to best include the most effective ingredients to improve skin health without overdoing it. We can then collectively construct a staple skin regime than many of us can try to follow, based on sound collective knowledge and logic.

It may seem to obsessive to do so, but from having a personal background in holistic health and biochemistry, I make sure that everything I do involving my health the most effective possible. I believe that if we are deciding to take the time and money to improve and maintain our health, we should make sure our attempt to to do so is based on having the very best knowledge possible. That way we can get the very best results, and avoid spending unnecessary amounts of money on an abundance of different products.

If possible it would be great if people from a professional background in cosmetics, dermatology and biochemistry could mainly join in this discussion, to ensure the we use an evidence based scientific approach to creating the best skin care regime

As a starting point I've posted my skin care regime below that I've been following for a few months now. The products are chosen based on proven effectiveness from published studies on PubMed.

My only concern with using the following products are using too many ingredients at once, which may cause inflammation/ irritation. Its basically a balancing act to incorporate the best ingredients without overdoing it, and then potentially causing more harm than good.


Morning

Kind To Skin Purifying Cleansing Lotion, washed with water

Kind To Skin Soothing Facial Toner

Topical Skin RNA blend. (Filtered water with RNA nucleotides. Improves levels of RNA nucleotides in skin, preventing DNA degradation and optimising healthy gene expression). Apply 3 drops to face.

Mito-Q serum (prevents oxidative damage inside mitochondria of skin cells, reducing ageing and increasing collagen production)

*** Wait 5-10 minutes to absorb ***

Balance Vitamin C Elixir Serum (Reduce oxidative damage. Increase collagen. Improve texture.)

*** Wait 5-10 minutes to absorb ***

Silkia Camellia Oil (Hydrates. Improves water retention. Allows absorption of other ingredients. Good anti-inflammatory)

*** Wait 15 minutes ***

Nia24 Skin Strengthening Complex (Improves skin texture + fine lines. Good anti-inflammatory)

Soltan SPF30 sunscreen (when necessary as I currently mainly work from home due to recovering from ill health, and have UV filters installed on windows)


Evening

Same as morning

(ive omitted using prescription stretch retinoids as they currently don't agree with my skin due to my temporary low levels of metabolism + methylation)


Thanks, I'm looking forward to seeing what we can collectively come up with.


I like the way you're thinking. So much of what I read on skin care forums is anecdotal. From one who's spent too much money on stuff that didn't work I started looking more at the hard science behind some of the products I've bought and found them, well..... wanting. As I've gotten older I lean more toward logic than I used to. Personally I don't care if the cosmetic smells nice, looks nice or even feels nice on my skin. I just want the darn thing to work.

I do wish there was more double blind studies on skin care. What seems to happen is that cosmetic companies do their own research and development and finish with their own testing. To me the testing can have a built in bias when they're selling the product too.

This is what I've come up with and what I put into my DIY skin cream. In my base cream I add:

L Carnosine

http://www.truthinaging.com/ingredients/carnosine

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21756141


Dill extract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20807260

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16842595

Matrixyl 3000.

I haven't found independent clinical studies of this yet however I include it in my skin cream.

Niacinamide

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18047609



I apply the DIY cream on day 1. Day 2 I apply a Vitamin C serum. Day 3 I apply Retin A Micro then I go back to the cream.

I also dermaroll and do a few simple resistance facial exercises.

If there is anything new out there I'd love to hear about it. Thanks! Very Happy
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Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:59 pm      Reply with quote
I meant to ask, William89, do you have some studies on the Mito-Q serum and the RNA nucleotides.

It sounds intriguing. Thanks!
EthelM
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Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:38 am      Reply with quote
Vitamin A

Vitamin C

Topical estrogen cream (face)

Sunscreen (I only use unrefined coconut oil as sunscreen, unless my product contains a sunscreen)

Dermarolling

Natural oils and waxes for moisturization, cleansing.

(One of the Vitamin A products I use contains peptides, but peptides aren't as strongly supported by research as the above)
cm5597
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Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:44 pm      Reply with quote
Quote:
Topical Skin RNA blend. (Filtered water with RNA nucleotides. Improves levels of RNA nucleotides in skin, preventing DNA degradation and optimising healthy gene expression). Apply 3 drops to face.


As a scientist, the topical "RNA blend" sounds completely specious and ridiculous. One: what RNA's are they using, what genes are being targeted, how are they claiming to deliver the RNAs to the skin, what species were they extracted from, etc. It's highly implausible that they are turning on or off particular genes. We are only barely starting to understand what regulatory RNAs do...believe me, if we had it more figured out, you'd likely see drugs based on RNAs before you'd see skin care products based on RNAs.

Second, there are RNAses (molecules that cut up RNAs into pieces) everywhere, so any RNAs would be rapidly degraded unless stored in the freezer and with RNAse inhibitors present in the lotion. That is, RNAs are very unstable.

Everything else I believe has some merit or level of "science" in some shape or form behind it.

I hope this helps and was what you were looking for in terms of feedback on your list Smile

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Tiptoedancer
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Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:55 pm      Reply with quote
cm5597 wrote:
Quote:
Topical Skin RNA blend. (Filtered water with RNA nucleotides. Improves levels of RNA nucleotides in skin, preventing DNA degradation and optimising healthy gene expression). Apply 3 drops to face.


As a scientist, the topical "RNA blend" sounds completely specious and ridiculous. One: what RNA's are they using, what genes are being targeted, how are they claiming to deliver the RNAs to the skin, what species were they extracted from, etc. It's highly implausible that they are turning on or off particular genes. We are only barely starting to understand what regulatory RNAs do...believe me, if we had it more figured out, you'd likely see drugs based on RNAs before you'd see skin care products based on RNAs.

Second, there are RNAses (molecules that cut up RNAs into pieces) everywhere, so any RNAs would be rapidly degraded unless stored in the freezer and with RNAse inhibitors present in the lotion. That is, RNAs are very unstable.

Everything else I believe has some merit or level of "science" in some shape or form behind it.

I hope this helps and was what you were looking for in terms of feedback on your list Smile


Thank you for your input. Don't you think the major problem with any kind of skin cream, no matter what's in it, is the impenetrable nature of our skin? If our skin weren't able to block out environmental chemicals, even water, we probably wouldn't have survived as a species. That barrier is what keeps us alive. So getting skin care products to cross through that wall and work where it's supposed to work is very difficult. I dermaroll products into my skin but even then I'm a little skeptical that it's getting where I want it to go.

May I ask what kind of science is your speciality?
cm5597
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Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:27 pm      Reply with quote
Hey Tiptoedancer,

Yes, totally, a major problem with any skin cream is inpenetrability. With the inpenetrability of the skin, of course, it's neither all or nothing, as some things are more or less penetrable, depending on size, receptors, hyprophobicity, etc.

But with the RNAs, I was think about the combined problem of achieving stability and skin penetration at the same time. What I mean is that it's known that there are RNAses on your skin, so some cheap product is not going to be able to achieve RNA penetration easily. I did a quick search on PubMed and it does look like there are some transdermal studies with small RNAs for inflammation/skin cancer, but it looks like they have to be encapsulated in nanoparticles or nanotubes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23643662
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24424208

So this is quite complex techniques that are unlikely to be available to your run-of-the mill skin care company.


Also, the read flag for me is that the product said that it turns on genes...what genes?...not all genes are good to turn on...a product that really understands the science would tell you what types of genes were turned on...Just my 2 cents.


I used to do physics research, but now mostly do biomedical research Smile I've taken some chemistry courses years ago, but it's not my area of expertise.

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Tiptoedancer
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Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:17 pm      Reply with quote
cm5597 wrote:
Hey Tiptoedancer,

Yes, totally, a major problem with any skin cream is inpenetrability. With the inpenetrability of the skin, of course, it's neither all or nothing, as some things are more or less penetrable, depending on size, receptors, hyprophobicity, etc.

But with the RNAs, I was think about the combined problem of achieving stability and skin penetration at the same time. What I mean is that it's known that there are RNAses on your skin, so some cheap product is not going to be able to achieve RNA penetration easily. I did a quick search on PubMed and it does look like there are some transdermal studies with small RNAs for inflammation/skin cancer, but it looks like they have to be encapsulated in nanoparticles or nanotubes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23643662
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24424208

So this is quite complex techniques that are unlikely to be available to your run-of-the mill skin care company.


Also, the read flag for me is that the product said that it turns on genes...what genes?...not all genes are good to turn on...a product that really understands the science would tell you what types of genes were turned on...Just my 2 cents.


I used to do physics research, but now mostly do biomedical research Smile I've taken some chemistry courses years ago, but it's not my area of expertise.


My understanding is that some genes that are turned on can be cancerous. Is this correct?
cm5597
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Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:00 am      Reply with quote
Yes. Some genes that are turned on can promote cancer, some inhibit cancer and many have no effect. This is similar for many outcomes. That is why you care which genes you are turning on and off.

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William89
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Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:19 am      Reply with quote
thanks cm5597 for your reply. With regard to the Topcial RNA serum I personally would not recommend people to use this particular product due to the lack of research and evidence behind it. My reason for using it is because I use many other RNA nucleotides products from the same company, taken sublingually, which Ive had great success with helping with my mild CFS. Because the serum is literally just a specific blend of nucleotides and filtered water, using it will have no negative effects to the skin.

One of the scientists behind the RNA's have stated they are unmodified RNA's from yeast. But instead of eating all 1,000,000,000 different RNAs that you might find in ie a yeast RNA capsule or in beef liver, they have isolated 25 to 50 of the yeast RNAs that they feel will be most beneficial based on a knowledge of biochemical pathways. The actual way the RNA's are stored and maintained are at this point proprietary, patent pending. They do not advertise their products and make no claims. They use initial profits to fund development.

As I said I wouldn't recommend this product as it isn't cheap, due to economies of scale, but based on what Ive read and the effects I've experiences from the sublingual RNA from the same company its logical to expect some benefit when the topical formulation is ued. If not, theres no harm done.

Btw the RNA serum is not advertised to turn on genes as you mentioned. I said it helps supports healthy gene expression. As its known that as you age, RNA levels drop and DNA is damaged-causing gene expression to change, making some over/under expressed. So it is my understudying that the supplementation of RNA applied topically to the skin (if they do absorb) will prevent unhealthy gene expression caused by DNA damage/ ageing. But this is just a theory.

But I appreciate your feedback and concerns and they are well justified.


And regarding Mito-Q, this is a supplement I've been following for some years now and was one of the first to use the oral supplement last year before release. It has great research to back it up on pubmed and is actually something I think everyone should take if they can afford it as it, simply put, will slow ageing.

The topical formulation has fewer research but is logical to assume the same benefits of its antioxidant benefits will be just as effective for the skin assuming it is absorbed- which early research confirms.
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Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:06 pm      Reply with quote
Sure, of course. I just wouldn't take any RNA product without knowing which genes are turned on or off.

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William89
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Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:15 pm      Reply with quote
the RNA supplements I use don't turn genes on or off. They just give the body the nucleotide building blocks to support healthy RNA/DNA synthesis. The ingredients are: Proprietary Blend of Nucleotides: 5 mcg
~Saccharomyces cerevisiae .
~Cytidine-5'-monophosphate .
~Adenosine-5'-monophosphate .
~Guanosine-5'-monophosphate .
~Uridine-5'-monophosphate
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Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:05 am      Reply with quote
Im having trouble wrapping my head around this RNA supplement thing. Wouldnt just a well balanced diet do as much? Not trying to be a troll, but it seems like a "medication" to me and so wouldnt be allowed by the FDA in an over the counter supplement.

It looks like the FDA has forbidden the use of adenosine-5'-monophosphate in compounded preparations:

"Drugs containing adenosine-5-monophosphate were removed from
the market in 1973 because they were determined to be neither safe nor effective"
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/EnforcementActivitiesbyFDA/WarningLettersandNoticeofViolationLetterstoPharmaceuticalCompanies/ucm054620.pdf

But, if it works for you and you can afford it - carry on! Very Happy

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Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:33 am      Reply with quote
You might change your Soltan suncream for the new TPF50 available at the end of march which supposedly prevents DNA helix distortions.Made by elizabeth arden I believe it will be Rx in the US-you can read evidence etc in march issue of journal of drugs and dermatology (JDD)
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Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:50 am      Reply with quote
^^ interesting find maggie!

http://jddonline.com/articles/dermatology/S1545961614P0309X/1#close

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Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:12 am      Reply with quote
William89 wrote:
thanks cm5597 for your reply. With regard to the Topcial RNA serum I personally would not recommend people to use this particular product due to the lack of research and evidence behind it. My reason for using it is because I use many other RNA nucleotides products from the same company, taken sublingually, which Ive had great success with helping with my mild CFS. Because the serum is literally just a specific blend of nucleotides and filtered water, using it will have no negative effects to the skin.

One of the scientists behind the RNA's have stated they are unmodified RNA's from yeast. But instead of eating all 1,000,000,000 different RNAs that you might find in ie a yeast RNA capsule or in beef liver, they have isolated 25 to 50 of the yeast RNAs that they feel will be most beneficial based on a knowledge of biochemical pathways. The actual way the RNA's are stored and maintained are at this point proprietary, patent pending. They do not advertise their products and make no claims. They use initial profits to fund development.

As I said I wouldn't recommend this product as it isn't cheap, due to economies of scale, but based on what Ive read and the effects I've experiences from the sublingual RNA from the same company its logical to expect some benefit when the topical formulation is ued. If not, theres no harm done.

Btw the RNA serum is not advertised to turn on genes as you mentioned. I said it helps supports healthy gene expression. As its known that as you age, RNA levels drop and DNA is damaged-causing gene expression to change, making some over/under expressed. So it is my understudying that the supplementation of RNA applied topically to the skin (if they do absorb) will prevent unhealthy gene expression caused by DNA damage/ ageing. But this is just a theory.

But I appreciate your feedback and concerns and they are well justified.


And regarding Mito-Q, this is a supplement I've been following for some years now and was one of the first to use the oral supplement last year before release. It has great research to back it up on pubmed and is actually something I think everyone should take if they can afford it as it, simply put, will slow ageing.

The topical formulation has fewer research but is logical to assume the same benefits of its antioxidant benefits will be just as effective for the skin assuming it is absorbed- which early research confirms.


From what I've read Idebenone is in the same family as Mito-Q which is the ingredient in many expensive skin care creams. I haven't used this on my skin. I'd like to hear some research on whether it works or not. Again, I don't know if it passes through the skin barrier to do some good or if dermarolling would sink it down into the skin. Has anyone used Idebenone? Skinactives has it in power form for something like $8.00 or so.
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Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:48 am      Reply with quote
Idebenone is a "superantioxidant" (altho every new ingredient that comes out call itself "super" it seems):

"Idebenone is known as a super anti-oxidant. It has been shown to be more effective than CoEnzyme Q-10 in scavenging certain free radicals while improving the signs of fine lines and wrinkles. Idebenone is a synthetic version of Co-Q10 with a molecular weight approximately 60% lower.


Idebenone (Hydroxydecyl Ubiquinone)

A multi-step in vitro process utilizing a variety of biochemical and cell-biological methods combined with in vivo studies was designed to compare the oxidative stress protective capacity of commonly used antioxidants. Summarizing and totaling the data equally weighted for each oxidative stress study, the overall oxidative protection capacity score of:

95- Idebenone
80 -DL- a-tocopherol
68- Kinetin
55- Ubiquinone [Co enzyme Q10]
41- DL- alpha lipoic acid.

The higher the score the better the overall oxidative stress protection capacity of the antioxidant. In a non-vehicle control study, 0.5%, and 1.0% idebenone commercial formulations were evaluated in a clinical trial..."
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/idebenone-98-15-5-grams/

The drawback of idebenone is that it can be highly irritating to some, causing rashes and inflammation. I use CoQ10 in a nanosphere form and roll it in.

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William89
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Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:09 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Fawnie, yes your right healthy people would not require additional RNA. I'm taking it to help with my CFS- essentially giving me building blocks of RNA so energy can be used elsewhere in other biochemical pathways. Regarding the FDA on adenosine-5-monophosphate, the formulation is not a supplement as the company makes no claim of it being a supplement and does not intended to help or cure any disease. Also I suspect due to the formulation containing much smaller measurements of adenosine-5-monophosphate compared to the oral supplements and prescription medications that were banned, the safety risk is little and comparatively smaller. I personally think the ban was unjustified, as I can't find evidence of it having health risks from research at low doses.

And thanks Maggie that product looks brilliant. I just hope they don't ruin it by adding strong scents and charging high prices like L'Oreal did with the Forever Youth Liberator Serum.

regarding mito-q heres a good watch for everyone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN0ln-iZZiM

and the link to trial mentioned at end of vid (which I'm personally quite skeptical of): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtnXUsnxC9c&list=UUuNKJYM0vr6A0sNI6aPqjDg

It seems like using the Mito-Q topical serum will slow down the rate of skin ageing by reducing oxidative damage, but there's little evidence to show it reverses it. I suspect it may do, in a similar way to vitamin c.
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Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:06 am      Reply with quote
William,

But RNAs are in all the foods that you eat. Honestly, a few grams of extra food per day would give you more than 5 mcg of RNA/DNA/nucleotides. I think you're better off eating more veggies than using this product, which seems specious to me. Have they done any clinical studies on their product? To me, if they haven't, I wouldn't use it due to the nature of the product (the fact that they say there are "proprietary" nucleotides in it). I'm more stringent about needing to seeing clinical studies on something if it's an isolated compound (whether in regards to eating or skin care), than a whole food. Because the more isolated something is, the more drug-like effects (for better or for worse) it is likely to have.

I don't know if you know this but RNAs ARE capable of effectively turning on and off genes.

For example, rice RNAs, especially in Asian populations, appear to be turning on/off a few of our genes. Crazy but yet neat at the same time!

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Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:21 am      Reply with quote
Hi cm5597, I really appreciate your advice and completely agree with your logic. However for me personally my initial choice for using them was to recover from an incurable illness, not to age at a slower rate. CFS, according to doctors, has no cure, but recent research is proving otherwise.

A Dr / biochemist in the US has recommended the RNA products I use and has seen many people recover from the illness. For me, in 4 months I've seen a huge improvement from using these products, (from being constantly fatigued and bed ridden for 2 years, to in 4 months being able to go to they gym and rarely experience fatigue. Whilst I knew trying them was a risk I had little choice as there was no other option to help my condition. But from my own experiences I cannot deny the huge impact they have. So whilst there is little to no research behind them, from my own experience they work incredibly well.

Perhaps they have turned off and turned on some genes, but perhaps they don't. Its this lack of research which is why I wouldn't recommend them.

I'm currently using a topical RNA as well as the sublingual drops, but as the topical one is purely for vanity I will discontinue using that incase the issues you mentioned could occur.
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Phyto-C SuperHeal O-Live Lotion (30 g / 1 floz) Payot Supreme Jeunesse Nuit (Night) (50 ml / 1.6 floz) Bremenn Clinical Upper Eyelid Lifter (15 ml / 0.5 floz)