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Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:10 pm  |
Sometimes I think disagreement on here happens because we don't agree on what an entire product category is for. Like what's toner for?
Or cleanser. Someone says they like cleanser A because it does one thing: cleanses (and they like the simplicity). Then, someone says they don't like cleanser A; they like cleanser B, because it does three things: cleanses, moisturizes, and brightens.
Can someone be right? Like if a company makes a cleanser that does 3 things because they think it's easier to sell to us, will the product work worse than one that focuses on doing only 1 thing?
I tried to describe why I think certain product categories exist, and my ideas, concerns, and questions at the level of these big categories.
Feel free to agree/disagree, or add your own ideas/concerns/questions on the level of these big categories. Why do we use toner again?
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Cleanser
Most important job: Remove impurities from the skin.
Why it’s hard to make a good cleanser: It’s hard to make a substance that perfectly removes all the bad stuff from your skin, and leaves all the good stuff.
For example, your skin continually produces oil from your pores. The newly produced oil is good in that it carries away dead skin cells shedding within your pores, it spreads onto the surface of your skin and helps your skin maintain an acidic pH, and it is occlusive and helps prevent water loss. However, the oil does oxidize, it does start to fill up with the waste of bacteria that eat it, and it does trap dead skin cells, dust, etc. So, how do you make something that takes away the old oil filled with gross things, and leave the new oil that’s less spoiled? Hard.
Additional thoughts:
What is the purpose of moisturizing cleansers? For example, Dove beauty bar is advertised as containing 25% moisturizing cream. If our cleanser is on our face for < 1 minute before we wash it off, do the moisturizing ingredients increase moisture levels in our skin at all?
If a cleanser supplies moisturizing ingredients to the skin at the same time it supplies harsh detergent/surfactant ingredients, do the moisturizing ingredients minimize skin irritation? If so, wouldn’t the better answer be to use less harsh detergents/surfactants versus another ingredient to mask their harshness?
Toner
Most important job: To quickly return skin to an acidic pH (my guess).
Additional thoughts:
The fact that there are cleansing toners, moisturizing toners, and treatment toners makes me think that… We don’t know why we buy toner (just like everyone started buying bb cream for some reason). Skin care companies just need to sell us something watery that does something.
I don’t understand cleansing toners. We did just use a cleanser in the previous step. If we don’t feel clean, why not find another cleanser instead of adding a cleansing toner? I don’t understand moisturizing toners. If we apply moisturizing ingredients before treatment, especially occlusive ones, isn’t there the possibility of interfering with the treatment product. I don’t understand treatment toners. Just buy the treatment product.
The only good I can see is that some simple toners are essentially acidic water. The water out of our taps we use to wash our face in a best case scenario is neutral at 7 pH. Spritzing with acidic water may help to return our skin to its normal pH state faster. And it may be a good thing to apply treatment products when our skin is at its normal ph. This is all a guess on my part.
Treatment
Most important job: Make skin cells perform at their best.
This means the dermal fibroblasts are happy making connective tissue such as collagen and elastin. The melanocytes are happy making melanin and properly protecting then nucleus of other skin cells. The keratinocytes are happy proliferating and dying and becoming a protective, dead covering for the body.
There are many approaches to making a skin cell perform at its best. Do you give it a bunch of nutritious raw materials to work with? Do you signal it to speed up its work? Do you protect it from free radicals? So, you might use multiple treatment products made by different companies.
Additional thoughts:
I don’t like it when a product contains cheap treatment ingredient A and expensive treatment ingredient B. The company tells everyone to buy the product because of expensive ingredient B (e.g., the extract of some rare plant), when really the product works because of cheap ingredient A (e.g., some form of vitamin A in the product). And because of expensive ingredient B which steals credit from cheap ingredient A, they sell their product for a super expensive price.
Moisturizer:
Most important job: Hydrate the skin.
Contains humectant ingredients, emollient ingredients, occlusive ingredients, or a combination.
Why it’s hard to make a good moisturizer: Emollients and occlusives are going to coat the skin. The emollients will make our skin look and feel better, and the occlusives will help prevent water loss. But you don’t want them to clog pores. Some people have pores that clog more easily. If they’re shedding skin cells abnormally, such as in clusters with desmosomes still attached, then their pores will clog more easily.
Additional thoughts:
If our skin is adequately hydrated (e.g., living in a humid climate) without a moisturizer, we don't need one. We can save our money for treatment products or something else in life.
Sunscreen/sunblock
Most important job: Protect the skin from UV radiation.
Why it’s hard to make a good sunscreen: You need ingredients that actually do offer UV protection, are non-toxic, and feel good on the skin. There only so many compounds in existence—and toxicity is still debated—that fit those criteria. |
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Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:51 am |
LOL, from the title of your topic I thought it would be on the slightly 'weirder' categories, you know, neck creams, essences and such. Those specific products confuse and disappoint me the most.
And from years of using stuff on my skin, there actually are moisturizing cleansers and toners and they do work, just not in a way a cream does. Almost all of them happen to have glycerin as one of the first 3 ingredients and it helps immensely to counteract hard water, harsh surfactants, even with the limited time a cleanser stays on skin. It also binds water which then can be sealed in with a moisturizer. This is another thing, moisturizers, no matter how advanced don't really add water to skin, they help to keep it in there. It's where those moisturizing toners come in, the humenctants and the fact that it's mostly water do increase moisture content in epidermis. It's all actually science and can be looked up. Or can be tried in a bit of self-science project. Wash skin with some basic stuff, wait a couple of minutes till dry and then put moisturizer on. If your skin is anything like mine, you will end up with dull, oily and angry skin. It any case results will be awful. I used to wait between washing and applying products, because of supposed interactions and absorbtions, it got me nowhere. Big mistake. First of all skin needs water and then comes some oil, vitamin serum or whatever.
I agree 100% that finding a good cleanser that actually get skin clean (most fail there) and don't ruin it. But I have to say, there have been a few cases when the extra ingrdients (minerals, botanicals, acids etc) do make a rare difference in a cleanser, but they all have been in the insanely expensive price category, think Cle de Peau, Sisley. While those are truly rare exceptions, it kinda shows that it possible to formulate a cleanser that leaves skin looking like after a facial just by washing it.
Ha, and my solution to cleanser dilemma is just double cleaning, gets skin super clean, no stripping. Easy.
Not sure about the pH adjusting thing and toners. Pretty much all the derms have said/written that even with acid peels skin readjusts it's pH after a few hours. And I've never seen a toner that would have such magical pH adjusting ingredients in them, in any significant amounts anyway. I mean, just because a toner has a pH of 5.5, where's the proof it brings skin to same level? And for how long! And is it the right pH for anything? And woudn't there be a some sort of percievable chemical reaction anyway? I dare say it's a myth, just like years ago skin care experts indoctrinated everyone that we all need to use a toner to close pores that open up with cleansing, and then scientists told us pores aren't even physically able to open and close, no matter what some girl in white coat at Clinique counter says.
Not sure what you mean with cleaning toner either. Those acne toners with salicylic acid and whatnot or those micellar waters? Because those are two very different animals.
Everyone who has spend some time here on EDS knows that sunscreens are both super important and super difficult. Everyone nowadays tells you to use sunscreen and use one with UVA rating. Hardest thing ever, if you ask me, find one that actually somewhat protects skin, doesn't degrade right away and can actually be used every day without looking like a sweaty extra in kabuki theater. Or to add extra difficulty points, find one that can be reapplied multiple times wih decent result and for the super hardcore level - get me one some that carries make-up well.
In the end it's all very confusing. Skin care is not a science, it's just as much a buch of fairy tales as say... astrology.  Every 'expert' just makes things up as they go, in the end we as end consumers are left with a million conflicting things. Even the rare glimpses of concrete proof within peer-reviewed outlets don't say us how to wash skin or which lotion to use. If you ask me how to proceed, then I say ditch internet (full of lies) and find someone in real life who's your age or older and has awesome skin and find out what they eat, how much they sleep, how they exercise and what skin stuff they use, if any. You'll be surprised! |
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Do what all good pragmatists do. Compromise. |
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Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:46 pm |
| jazzi wrote: |
| This is another thing, moisturizers, no matter how advanced don't really add water to skin, they help to keep it in there. |
Totally agree with this. In dry climates, I'll mist with Avene water, Caudalie water, or pat some tap water on my face before applying moisturizer. Even if water is the first ingredient in a moisturizer, it often doesn't feel hydrating enough.
But the thing is I'll wait until AFTER I apply treatment products to do any hydration (mist + moisturizer).
| jazzi wrote: |
| I used to wait between washing and applying products, because of supposed interactions and absorbtions, it got me nowhere. Big mistake. First of all skin needs water and then comes some oil, vitamin serum or whatever. |
Are you saying that your skin gets so dry during the minutes you're waiting for your treatments to absorb that you simply have to hydrate some BEFORE treatment. If so, I understand!
Then I think it becomes important what kind of moisturizing toner a person chooses. I understand why a toner that's just basically water + humectants, which you describe, would work well.
I don't think a moisturizing toner that's water + emollients/occlusives would be good, and you agree right? Like this Yonka toner is so full of essential oils http://www.essentialdayspa.com/yonka-lotion-png-normal-o-p_577.htm. Some treatment ingredients are quite fragile and penetration into the skin is already challenging; I don't think they'd play nice with these essential oils.
| jazzi wrote: |
| Not sure what you mean with cleaning toner either. Those acne toners with salicylic acid and whatnot or those micellar waters? Because those are two very different animals. |
By cleansing toner, I mean a product like the Phytomer one here http://www.essentialdayspa.com/phytomer-eau-marine-alcoh-p_1927.htm or the Orlane one here http://www.essentialdayspa.com/orlane-vivifying-lotion-p_1016.htm.
I mean toners designed to "complement cleansers" or "complete daily cleansing" as you find in product descriptions. These two have propylene glycol and then a mild surfactant from what I understand.
They are different from something like Bioderma micellar waters to me because the Bioderma waters are supposed to be standalone cleansing products--you don't need some other Bioderma product to cleanse. So these cleansing toners are like "post-cleanser cleansing" which seems like just trying to extract extra money from the consumer.
I think AHAs and salicylic are great for people who have skin shedding abnormally. Get it in a cleanser (I mean a product you have on your face for a short time and then rinse off). Get it in a mask (I mean a product you have on your face for an extended period like 15-30 minutes and then rinse off). I think they can make sense in a toner. I just don't know if they might interfere with a fragile treatment ingredient.
For example, if you spray your face with a product containing AHAs and salicylic and there are still droplets on your face when you apply your treatment (because we're often in a hurry), will the acids harm the treatment?
Thanks for writing such a long post, jazzi. I really enjoyed reading it! |
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Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:25 am |
Well, I hydrate before applying treatments, reasoning behind this - moist skin is supposedly more permable to both oil and water based ingredients. And then I use a moisturizer to seal everything in. Doesn't really matter what kind of toner, just make sure you drench skin with it, hardcore solution is getting those "empty" face sheet masks and soaking them with toner. In 5 minutes skin is more hydrated than any hyaluronic acid serum ever could.
Also, the fragility of ingredients is over-dramatized. Even "experts" like Paula Beogun and Dr Pickart have adjusted their advice realizing they operate on false/outdated assumptions (real scientists update theories, too). Seemingly arbitrary rules is also a horrible potential problem when seeking advice online, for some posters it's a way to exert influence on others when they stomp their digital feet and cling to such rules. Or simply re-re-repeat something they have picked up sometime. For example YOU CAN'T USE RETINOL/PEPTIDES AND GYCOLICS AT SAME TIME. YOU CAN'T USE RETINOL DURING DAYTIME. Both wrong, I'm afraid. I say, it's an everything-goes battle, do whatever makes most sense to you and pick only what works. That's why seeking advice in real life, from "better" aged inviduals is more productive. Challanges some of the views held by internet experts too.
Yeah, and those two toners, Orlane and Phytomer are very boring ones, just their discription is exciting. They claim to have purifying/cleaning properties based on their plant extract/essential oil content. Which might be true, majoram has some antibacterial properties, for example, but most likely isn't noteworthy. |
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Do what all good pragmatists do. Compromise. |
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