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Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:13 am  |
OK, I've been planning this for ages, but have been stumped at the final hurdle!
I want to make a face serum with the following"
10% agireline
10% matryxl
5% algae extract
5% green tea extract
5% ALA
5% Dmae/dmea
5-8% HA
in a rose hydrolat base. Now thing is, does anyone know how to mix this so it works? I've posted on the personal formulater forum, but it seems a bit dead over there and I can't find any sites that have any recipies and 'how to's'. I'm worried that it will not have the right ph values and I'll end up counteracting all my lovely ingredients 
I can get everything except the ala and dmae and hydrolat from tpf, so i need to know where I can get them from. That skin dr guy says you can just split caps into cream and it works. Anyone else have any views on this?
Liz  |
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my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:16 am |
Hi Guapagirl,
I have made a matriyxl, HA, argireline serum which I love!!! I haven't used algae or green tea though (did you get those through TPF?) but I do use a cream using the lamellar cream from TPF containing the ALA and DMAE from the skinsmart recipes that you mentioned.
I would love to have an all in one cream or serum too but I asked Dr. T about it and he said the skin can only absorb so much at one time and that if you added them all together, it would overload it and it wouldn't get properly absorbed, so it would be best to do them up separately, which is what I did. He also added that he questions the compatibility of matrixyl and DMAE together in one product. I put the matrixyl with the AH3 and HA in one product and the DMAE/ALA in a cream. I apply my serum, wait a bit and then my cream.
To the best of my knowledge you can only buy bitartrate DMAE retail which is very low in DMAE (30%) the rest is inert powder that has to be soluble within the medium. This can take up a lot of room in a cream or serum when you are trying to add ALA and other ingredients in clinically efficacious amounts. This is also the reason why the homemade DMAE cream is only effective at a 1 or 2% mix. Anymore than that and it's not getting absorbed.
Lastly, have you emailed the chemist directly on TPF? I have in the past and he has been very helpful with amounts etc. He may be able to help you in regards to your recipe question.
HTH
Dianne |
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Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:39 pm |
Guapagirl,
I am no chemist, but I can already see a couple of problems with this formulation. First of all, Dianne is correct in not combining the DMAE with the Matrixyl. From what I've read, it can cause the DMAE to degrade and become photoxic.
Also, I have concerns with the percentage of DMAE in your formula. The industry standard is not to formulate higher than 0.5% pure DMAE, as higher concentrations cause burning & sensitivity. 5% of pure DMAE would actually be caustic to the skin and could cause respiratory problems in people with asthma or allergies to molds & spores.
Also, 5% ALA is too high as well. Industry standard is no higher than 1%c/v.
And your 5% of Algae extract is AKA iodine poisoning.  no higher than 1%.
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but just because you can buy a chemical online, doesn't automatically make it safe.
If I were you, this is what I would make. 2 different serums with:
MATRIXYL SERUM:
89% Hyaluronic Acid Solution (1%c/v)
5% Matrixyl
5% Green Tea Extract
1% ALA
ARGIRELINE SERUM:
88.5% Hyaluronic Acid Solution (1%c/v)
10% Argireline
0.5% DMAE
1% Algae Extract
You could use one in the morning & one at night, and it would be brilliant. I would stay away from the rosewater unless you added a broad-spectrum preservative like methyl/propylparaben (ie) GermabenII. You don't know the sanitary standards that the rosewater underwent, and with the protein in the HA & the fact that ALA is a co-enzyme and growth factor for bacteria, your serum could turn into a petri dish if you aren't careful. You could add the preservative at as low as 0.25%, and then subtract that amount from your base of HA.
Again, I'm not trying to burst your bubble, and the ingredients that you chose are fantastic! But you just need to really research it before you invest a lot of time & money in something that might not turn out for you. I just don't want to see you disappointed.
Please don't be mad at me! 
Hugs,
Darren |
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Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:57 pm |
Guapagirl,
Scrap my first formula for the Matrixyl Serum. After I posted it, I realized that if you add 5% Green Tea Extract, it could interefere with the absorption of the pentapeptides. Such a high concentration of antioxidants may work against the receptivity of the fibroplasts to accept the mimetic peptides in the Matrixyl. I wouldn't go higher than 1-2% Green Tea Extract, then adjust your HA solution to accomodate that change (ie - 2%Green Tea to 92% HA or 1% Green Tea to 93% HA Solution).
They really do call these active ingredients for a reason!  Also, you may have to adjust your final pH in the second serum, since DMAE is very alkaline (~10-11). You would want the total serum pH to be around 6.5 or so. But since you're adding such a small amount of DMAE, it may not matter. You could adjust it very easily though if you had to. |
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Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:14 pm |
I am currently using this homemade GT extract toner--100ml water + 1 capsule of 500mg GTE.
and I read in this thread that GT might interfere with penetration of a product...
so should I not use the toner BEFORE putting on vitamin C serum? |
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Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:59 pm |
| It shouldn't affect the bioavailability of Vitamin C. Vitamin C is an antioxidant itself. I don't know what the PGE count is on the capsules you are using, but the extracts that are used in the cosmeceuitcal industry are sooooo concentrated, that using 5 times the recommended amount could diminish the bioavailability of the peptide in Matrixyl. I am not certain of this, but it is a possibility that should be considered & researched further, IMO. |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:13 am |
I came up with 5% of ala and dmae because that is what is used in the pure demming intense gel, glad I haven't tried it if it is gonna burn my face off!
This is such a bummer, I really wanted a magic bullet  and it seems I'll end up like a petri dish! ...I think I'll scrap the algae and green tea!
What about a serum with agireline, matrixyl and ALA in a HA base? Would that work OK? And could I somehow combine the dmae with jojoba oil?
Thing is, is I want to reduce all the layering I do and I figure if I use a relaxaline serum on top of my C serum, but one that contains everything, then I could just use the jojoba oil as a moisturiser (I LOVE that stuff!). And I'd like to use it 2x a day 
Looks like it's gonna be different AM/PM serums.
Off to scratch my head a bit more!
Liz x |
_________________
my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:56 am |
Liz,
I didn't mean to alarm you, and there's no reason that you can't add the algae extract & green tea - you just have to tone down the concentrations - that's all. The only thing that really concerned me was the high levels of DMAE since it is toxic.I'm shocked that they have 5% in the demming gel. I wonder if it's a total of 5% of all the actives - like a synergistic blend of actives that add up to 5%?
Here is a link to the MSDS for pure DMAE. You can read it yourself if you like.
https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/85083.htm
The serum you mentioned with the ALA & peptides in a base of HA would be great. I'm not sure about the DMAE in the jojoba oil though. I think that DMAE is only water soluble (may be slightly soluble in alcohol or ether). So you would have to emulsify the jojoba into a cream. Oooohhh....here's where your rosewater could come in!  |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:06 am |
'king hell Darren!
Is this stuff safe to handle? and what about the supplements? How is this stuff different? On these web pages they note it as being non-toxic. This is very confusing
Maybe the stuff in the pure demming is the same as the stuff in the capsules sold as an oral supp? The spiel on the site emphasises that they use high % of active ingredients.
I can only think that the stuff they use must be in a much milder form as is the stuff in supps as you wouldn't even want the stuff near your house after reading the MSDS!
Here are the links I've been looking at anyhow:
http://www.numarkpharmacists.com/hn/Supp/DMAE.htm
http://www.herbalremedies.com/dmdidiamet.html
http://www.loweringcholesterol.net/herbal-remedies/dmae/Research-on-DMAE
Liz |
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my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:10 am |
Darren
You say you're not a chemist, but how do you know all this? I'm intrigued and very interested. |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:03 am |
Darren's a secret skincare god  |
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my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:21 am |
I know how you feel Guapagirl. I wanted to reduce a layer and simplify things as well but had to divide it into 2 different mediums to get all the ingredients I wanted to use.
I do know that matrixyl, AH3 and HA are compatible together so you could definitely do up a serum with those together. I don't know about ALA with them though.
Good luck! |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:36 pm |
| This is so interesting to read. I like the "mad scientist" aspect to it all and it is interesting to think of creating these special products at home, but how do you know what you are doing is safe and how do you keep a sterile environment? Do you need gloves and a respirator? How do you dispose of ingrediants? Can anyone with just a kitchen really make these strong, active ingredient products? Just wondering, joani |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:13 pm |
Guapagirl:
As for the difference in the oral DMAE, it is not 100% pure DMAE. It is in an excipient (filler/base) usually methylcellulose or some other type of starch/flour. So it may only have 10,000 U/g (units per gram) of available DMAE. The sites that you listed don't give the percentages of their actives.
As for the MSDS I listed, you have to realize that that is for 100% pure DMAE. And you wouldn't formulate with that anyway. What you need to do is a serial dilution. You dilute it in a solvent to say, 50%. Then you dilute that again to say, 10%, then again, and again until you get to whatever percentage you want (usually 1% solution), then add a percentage of that. But by now the amounts are so small that you must do it not by volume, but by mass. So you need a precision balance that can measure to say 1/1,000 of a gram. And all the time you do need to be wearing solvent-proof gloves, and a respirator, and everything must be steralized to avoid cross-contamination and bacterial growth.
This is why I was a bit shocked that you wanted to use 5% DMAE. It's not something you want to do in your kitchen while you're waiting for your roast to brown!
If demming boasts 5% DMAE then it must be the oral supplement in the capsules, so most of that is the excipient anyway.
And now that I think about it, I don't know that what is in the capsules would even dissolve in a serum. It would depend on the excipient used, if it is water soluble or not. Some are only oil soluble. But since DMAE is only soluble in H2O, I would assume that it is water soluble - probably some type of cellulose or starch.
Dianne had a great idea about the serum - I think it sounds lushous! Again, it's really not something I would do in my kitchen. And I wouldn't use the industrial grade DMAE unless you know a chemist or someone who can do the serial dilutions for you & give you a safe solution to add to your serum.
Other than that, I wouldn't mess with it. There are a lot of other great actives out there that you could experiment with safely. Why don't you try opening the capsules and see if you can get it to dissolve in some warm water. This will let you know if it will dissolve in your solvent of HA or not.
Good luck,
Darren |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:17 pm |
Molly,
No, I'm not a chemist. I am an esthetician, and developed my own skin care line with a friend who is a chemist for Merck. What I learned I got either from participating in our research, or learned from Justin (our chemist), or from reading & experiementing myself. I just never experiemented with anything that required hazard stickers on the shipping box! |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:22 pm |
joani.sp,
There are a lot of skin care products that you can make yourself that are safe. On the other hand, even ingredients that are safe at low levels can be dangerous to work with at their full concentrations. Also, the MSDS lists any possible side effect. If you look at the MSDS reports for aloe-vera juice, or lavender essential oil it still looks scary. I was just concerned because pure DMAE can cause dermal and respiratory irritation - especially if the pH of the formula is not controlled. It can put off fumes that can do damage to the lungs and eyes, in addition to the skin. But again, this is only at 100% concentration. And you should never work with a chemical at it's full concentration. |
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Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:06 am |
Darren,
Thank you so much for your educated responses. I think I'll keep my kitchen for that roast you mentioned!
Is your skincare line available for purchase?
Also, you stated, "You dilute it in a solvent to say, 50%. Then you dilute that again to say, 10%, then again, and again until you get to whatever percentage you want (usually 1% solution), then add a percentage of that. But by now the amounts are so small that you must do it not by volume, but by mass. So you need a precision balance that can measure to say 1/1,000 of a gram. And all the time you do need to be wearing solvent-proof gloves, and a respirator, and everything must be steralized to avoid cross-contamination and bacterial growth."
Is there a resource to purchase the already diluted solutions so the gloves, respirator, lung problems and perhaps blowing up the house whould then not be an issue?
Thanks again, joani |
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Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:47 am |
Joani,
No problem. This is all so facinating to me - I could talk about skin care for hours! Yes, our skin care products are available online (www.psfskincare.com)
Right now we do not have any products currently available that contain peptides. But we are developing a firming eye gel that contains stabilized liquid oxygen, FGM (human fibroplast growth medium) & matrixyl. That should be released sometime this summer.
I do not know of any suppliers that sell actives in already diluted solutions. The suppliers that we use are cosmetic/medical-grade manufacturers. They only sell their products in raw form and in bulk. It would be nice to find a place that does the dilutions for you, but that would probably triple the price (at least) and leave our chemist with nothing to do but play solitaire on his laptop.
-Darren
Pure Skin Formulations, LLC |
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Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:53 pm |
Hi Darren,
Thanks for posting your site. I look forward to checking it out. I also look forward to the eye cream you are working on, it sounds great!
And thanks for the info on the diluting of products. I think, for now, I'll stick with buying already formulated products. I would not want your chemist getting too bored!!!
Best, Joani |
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Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:06 pm |
Sure. I don't know if you have seen it yet, but there is a site out there where you can buy cosmeceutical ingredients (at retail prices) to experiemnt with making your own products. The URL is:
http://www.thepersonalformulator.com
They even give you recipes to try. I would just make sure no to excede the recommeded concentrations - you should be OK. and it would be fun!  |
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Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:19 am |
Yeah, the personal formulator is a good site, but the recipies are not what I was after! I think I'll go the way that Dianne has and do a serum plus a cream with dmae. Or maybe just skip the cream and take an oral supplement. Does anyone know if dmae really does do the whole firming up business?
Also, Darren, I could put ala in with the agireline matryxl HA serum? would that work ok?
PS, you can burst my bubble anytime sweetie
Liz |
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my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:57 am |
I don't see any reason why you couldn't combine the ALA with the other ingredients. And as for the DMAE, I don't think that taking it orally will have a direct effect on the skin. As for using it topically, I do believe that it does offer a "temporary" lifting/firming effect. But unless you are using some type of regenerating complex (retinols, EGF, peptides), then the effect will not be cumulitive.
If you add it into a cream, just be aware that the cream base will only accept and solubilze so much of the DMAE powder, especially being in an excipient. So what I would do is once you weigh out how much DMAE you need, add only half & make sure it dissolves. Then add 1/4, then the other 1/4. Only if the base accepts it. Otherwise, your cream will be gritty & dry out.
Good luck!
Darren
PS - How are you going to measure out the ingredients? |
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Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:17 am |
Dammit man! I knew you would ask tricky questions
I'm gonna use disposable syringes. They are marked in mls, so I should get the % right and the chemist on TPF has already given instructions on how to prep HA bases. I intend just making up 15 ml at a time for personal use. used 2x a day that should last me a month going on relaxaline usage.
I'm gonna skip the dmae ...too much hassle! I'll just have to be content with young saggy skin
Liz xxx |
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my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:33 pm |
That sounds good. Like I said, there are so many great ingredients out there - doesn't pay to get hung up on one. Let me know how it all works out!
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Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:41 pm |
Guapagirl,
Would you mind sharing what the chemist said regarding prepping HA bases?
And Darren, do you have samples of your products? |
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