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Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:06 pm  |
| I wonder if any of this forum members know anything about Argeriline, Matrixyl and Dmae combined in the same cream. Please help me out here. I have made an anti aging cream combining all of them together, and so far it has shown a lot of positive effects on my skin, but I still want to know your opinion about it. |
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Brazilian Girl |
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Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:19 pm |
| thepersonalformulator.com has a forum that might be able to help you with your question.They are very helpful with formulations. |
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Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:40 am |
| Thanks for the tip,I'll visit that site. |
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Brazilian Girl |
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Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:03 am |
the combination of Argireline and DMAE would render each other useless because one firms the muscles while the other relaxes them. It's like taking an upper and a downer without the fatal consequence.
Take it this way, what happens if an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
answer: NOTHING
...or in some cases...EXPLOSION! |
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Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:36 pm |
| How come Anna Pegova has both of those actives in one of their top anti aging treatments ? Revitol also has both ingredients in its formula. I decided to add them both together because I saw that they had been combined by some laboratories before. Thank you for your reply. I guess I'm going to do some more research about that! |
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Brazilian Girl |
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Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:28 pm |
I may be wrong but think about it, they do the exact opposite so logically they cancel each other out. I think it's a marketing gimmick, you can have one or the other but not both in the same formula, although it looks more attractive to have them both. And because most people tend to think that having both ingredients in a bottle would be better, they buy into it. Take the case of copper peptides and vitamin C, you cannot have both ingredients together. I think Argireline and DMAE acts the same way, but I don't know which one would dominate the other, one or both just become inactive. That's my theory unless someone here can prove otherwise...perhaps the Alphaderma CE people can explain this since their product contains both ingredients. BTW, Revitol does not have both ingredients in one formula. They have Idebenone & DMAE in one formula. Matrixyl & Argireline on another. So it looks like they knew this already.
You are better off using Vitamins C & E plus Ferulic Acid....Skinceuticals at least have data to support their formula.
You may also want to invetigate ingredients that would boost the product's efficacy like what Ferulic acid would do to vitamins C & E. Also, for example, I hear that Green Tea (in case you want to add this to your formulation) in a topical without BHT is useless. |
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beautify
New Member
 
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 8
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:12 pm |
| Brazilian girl wrote: |
| I wonder if any of this forum members know anything about Argeriline, Matrixyl and Dmae combined in the same cream. Please help me out here. I have made an anti aging cream combining all of them together, and so far it has shown a lot of positive effects on my skin, but I still want to know your opinion about it. |
Erase from Cellbone has Argireline, Matrixyl3000, and DAME. Matrixyl3000 is a latest. If you have sagging, wrikle, and dry skin, they said ERASE and RESTORE works well and no side effect. People used for last 7 months without side effect even with higher Argireline in their product. They also said absolute performer.
Is this why they called Treatment Cream? |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:24 pm |
You mean this!
http://cellbone.com/Erase.htm
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CellZen ERASE Treatment Cream creates visibly smoother looking skin and reduces fine lines and wrinkles. Infused with key nutrients and proven technology, this unique penetrating dermal treatment cream provides the newest in wrinkle reducing technology while drenching delicate facial skin with proven nutrients that hydrate, firm and lift tired, sagging skin. Argireline®, DMAE, Ceramide and Matrixyl™3000 work together to provide incredible smoothing of rough, uneven textured skin and reduce visible signs of aging.
Inhibits and reduces facial wrinkles and sagging.
Restores skin hydration and moisture
Firms, lifts, protects face and neck areas
Smoothes skin by diminishing wrinkles
Visually reduces signs of aging
Suitable for all skin types |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:33 pm |
Sort of like the Lyne-Tox wrinkle Rx from DermaMD
http://www.focusbeautycare.com/.sc/ms/cat/1032987946/9/nc/Derma%20MD%20ll
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LYNE-TOX
Therapy +
Product Purpose:
Designed to stimulate collagen, I, II, III and IV, deep down with the skin and improve skin plumpness, moisturization, elastin and hyaluronic acid production, collagen thickening and dermal relaxation.
Product Benefits:
The unique combination of Argirelene® (acetyl hexapeptide-3 and Matrixyl 3000), a complex combination of peptides, will allow the muscles to contract less providing smoother skin. Improves and helps to reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles around the eye area and frown lines.
Directions:
Apply both a.m. and p.m., 2-3 drops onto clean dry skin. Apply primarily in the glabella area (between the eye brows), forehead and around the crow’s feet area. Pat gently and allow to absorb. Proceed with Mtxl-3 Therapy Cre’me or treatment cream as suggested by you skin care specialist or physician.
Key Ingredients:
10% Argirelene® (acetyl hexapeptide-3) – Inhibits the formation of the SNARE complex, a core membrane protein that mediates neuronal exocytosis. Their inhibition by short synthetic peptides can decrease facial wrinkle formation.
Matrixyl 3000 (palmitoyl oligopeptide and Palmitoyl tetrapeptide-3) – Increases the syntheses of the dermal matrix molecules essential for preserving the skins youthful appearance and feel. This aids in the formation of Collagen I, III and IV.
Marine CollagenPolypeptides/Silanetriol – Helps restore normal cell metabolism and aid in collagen biosynthesis. Protects skin elasticity and tone with an added plumping effect.
Glutamic Acid – Cytokine like effect, there by, improving the skins defense.
Phyto Plankton – Is rich in high molecular weight polysaccharides and oligo-metlas. This acts on the dermo-epidermal junction.
Fructose Oligossacharides – Provides intense moisture retention and helps to calm.
Hydrolyzed Vegetal Protein – A complex to stimulate Collagen I and IV synthesis as studies have shown. In addition, Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein Extract improves cohesion and thickening of collagen fibers.
Additional Ingredients:
yeast extract, marine algae, xanthan gum uncaria, tomentosa extract, porphyridium cruentum, extract menthe piperita (peppermint) leaf extract, niacinamide, glutamylamidoethyl imidazole acrylates/c10-30 alkyl acrylate crosspolymer, aminomenthylpropanol, phenoxyethanol idodpropynyl butylcarbamate
Recommended in Treatments and Home Care for All Skin Types
(See Protocols) |
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Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:17 am |
| I 'consumed' skin doctor's cream and other similar products contain Argeriline for 6 months and didn't see any improvement at all. I think it is not worth to try botox alternative as they simply don't work. Better save the money and visit a reputable dermatoligist for proper botox injection if you really desperate to get rid of wrinkles. |
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beautify
New Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 8
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Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:48 am |
| Sarah Jones wrote: |
| I 'consumed' skin doctor's cream and other similar products contain Argeriline for 6 months and didn't see any improvement at all. I think it is not worth to try botox alternative as they simply don't work. Better save the money and visit a reputable dermatoligist for proper botox injection if you really desperate to get rid of wrinkles. |
Hi Sarah, I am using Erase and Restore for a month, the result was amazing. Now I have Moist'Seal with Erase, this combo really lift my drooping cheek line and smooth out fine lines. I have no more drooping cheek. I used Argireline only product before but with Matrixyl3000 I see the difference.
They are giving it away. Anyway, why not try it and see the same result I have. |
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Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:03 pm |
| On the YTF board, some reported that argeriline use on their cheeks caused some droopiness. This seems a little hard to believe but regardless, I have always kept my argeriline use on my forehead lines and crow's feet. I didn't really want my cheeks to be "relaxed". I have used the matrixyl from the personalformulator in their oil-free cream base and I thought that it did a nice job of firming my skin. Though nothing beats Retin-A for that. I just can't use it every night so I use the Matrixyl when I can't use the Retin-A. |
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Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:18 am |
That conclusion is absolutely wrong. I have been formulating skin care products for years and can tell you that if that was so AlphaDerma would not be selling and getting the rave reviews it does. The only reason most companies do not use ingredients that are essential for tight, firm, healthy skin is cost, period. The other reason is because they can't because patents that stop them. It is funny there are so many new products on the market every day or 1 hit wonders. They don't have the right percentages of actives or their formula is just a copy of all the other similar products on the market. I can say 100% that DMAE & Argireline do not cancel each other out and any one who says different does not know skin care as it is not as cut and dry as opposites counter each other out! Anyone who wonders should try the two ingredients and see the effects, they do not need to buy AlphaDerma to get the results from the two ingredients. My post is not to drive sales but to educate. Perreicone has the ingredients and you can purchase from him as well as many other sources.
| eSquire415 wrote: |
the combination of Argireline and DMAE would render each other useless because one firms the muscles while the other relaxes them. It's like taking an upper and a downer without the fatal consequence.
Take it this way, what happens if an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
answer: NOTHING
...or in some cases...EXPLOSION! |
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JB Cosmeceuticals |
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Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:19 pm |
I do not think anybody has studied how Argireline and DMAE interact together. I agree that it probably is not simple. I wouldn't, however, use Argireline anywhere but on forhead lines. There are quite reputable studies showing muscle atrophy from these types of chemicals including Botox. I once thought Argireline was safer because it has a weaker action. Then a doctor pointed out to me that Botox is only safely used when applied in very limited spots. Argireline is put all over the face sometimes several times a day. I think the threat of saggy cheeks is real but not what people are reporting on MUA (as this would likely take 5-20 years to show up). That's why it's not so simple as try it and see. Thus if you're under 60 I think you're taking a big risk.
DMAE on the other hand has a good safely profile. Skin biopsies show that it enhances cell viability and "longish" term (23 month) studies show that it's tightening effect is cumulative.
Matrixyl 3000 also has good studies (not by a manufacturer or sponsored by a trade organization) on stimulation of collegan and no safety issues have been raised here. |
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Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:47 pm |
| Sharky, do you have any links to the reputable studies on topical botox-like chemicals and/or botox itself causing muscle atrophy? I'd love to take a look at those. I do use acetyl hexapeptide/argeriline around my eyes and I love the results but would like to see these studies "just in case". Thanks! |
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Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:13 pm |
Most of you know that I have been using AlphaDerma for 14 months. I no longer work for JB so I am not promoting their product in any way. As I just told someone in a PM: My face went from sagging to nice and firm. My neck looks 10 years younger then it did last June. I love AlphaDerma!!
I never really had a problem with wrinkles. I am not afraid of using Argireline at all. However, I would love it if JB sold AlphaDerma without Argireline for people that just wanted to address sagging. I do not believe Argireline firmed my face but all the other ingredients in AlphaDerma had a dramatic affect on my complextion. Oh, I can't forget the Mineral Prep ... Awesome |
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Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:25 am |
Next week I'll do a MEDLINE search again and give you a few refs and also the key words to use to see the whole group. I'm not familiar with the researchers only the schools so I don't know which is the most reputable. I like the studies using biopsies or spectroscopic techniques to monitor particular biochemical changes. I do have friends/colleagues who are working to develop diagnostic techniques.
P.S. I still have one product with Argireline that I use on my forehead. I was told that the sagging issue is most a problem where you have fat deposits under your skin. These deposits diminish with age and you need the muscle tone and skin elasticity to keep the skin firm there. Most people's foreheads don't have much fat. |
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Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:41 am |
Ian is completely correct in my opinion. There is no proof that Argireline produces facial sagging. On the contrary, the studies have shown that it helps to plump & smooth out wrinkles. If it caused sagging, wouldn't the wrinkles be more pronounced?
Also, there is no proof that DMAE & Argireline cancel each other out. This is an unfounded claim made by people who don't really understand how these actives work. Argireline works by turning off some of the receptor sites in the muscles of the face, whereas DMAE works by firming the skin. They can be used together to create an overall smoothing & firming effect.
Also, as for putting Argireline all over your face, it will only work on muscle groups that house the proper type of neuro-receptors. Those facial areas are the forehead (corrugator & procerus), the muscles around the eye (orbicularis oculi, orbital), and those around the mouth that contribute to pronounced naso-labial folds (zigomatic minor & levator labii superiorus).
The other muscles in the cheeks to not control an up & down motion, so there should be no concern about a loss of tone causing sagging of the cheeks. So in short, using argireline all over your face will not cause atrophy in all of your facial muscles, only a slight decrease in movement in those that respond to that specific peptidic attachment.
Facial sagging is far more likely to be caused by issues such as cross linking & loss of collagen/elastin, fat deposits, gravity, weight gain & loss of muscle tone due to age.
One more personal note & then my rant will be over: I have been using a 10% argireline product of some sort for a couple of years now & have seen visible results in regard to decrease of wrinkle depth & a decrease in non-essential (unintentional) muscle movements of the face. I have had no sagging (other than what naturally comes with age) & people that meet me take me for an average of 10 years younger than what I am. So for me personally, it's a keeper! 
-Darren
PSF Skincare |
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Pure Skin Formulations, LLC | http://www.psfskincare.com |
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Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:51 am |
| Thanks, Darren! That's a great explanation of how these different ingredients work. I'll keep on with my Relax-A-Line with no worries. |
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Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:34 pm |
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
Ian is completely correct in my opinion. There is no proof that Argireline produces facial sagging. On the contrary, the studies have shown that it helps to plump & smooth out wrinkles. If it caused sagging, wouldn't the wrinkles be more pronounced?
Also, there is no proof that DMAE & Argireline cancel each other out. This is an unfounded claim made by people who don't really understand how these actives work. Argireline works by turning off some of the receptor sites in the muscles of the face, whereas DMAE works by firming the skin. They can be used together to create an overall smoothing & firming effect.
Also, as for putting Argireline all over your face, it will only work on muscle groups that house the proper type of neuro-receptors. Those facial areas are the forehead (corrugator & procerus), the muscles around the eye (orbicularis oculi, orbital), and those around the mouth that contribute to pronounced naso-labial folds (zigomatic minor & levator labii superiorus).
The other muscles in the cheeks to not control an up & down motion, so there should be no concern about a loss of tone causing sagging of the cheeks. So in short, using argireline all over your face will not cause atrophy in all of your facial muscles, only a slight decrease in movement in those that respond to that specific peptidic attachment.
Facial sagging is far more likely to be caused by issues such as cross linking & loss of collagen/elastin, fat deposits, gravity, weight gain & loss of muscle tone due to age.
One more personal note & then my rant will be over: I have been using a 10% argireline product of some sort for a couple of years now & have seen visible results in regard to decrease of wrinkle depth & a decrease in non-essential (unintentional) muscle movements of the face. I have had no sagging (other than what naturally comes with age) & people that meet me take me for an average of 10 years younger than what I am. So for me personally, it's a keeper!
-Darren
PSF Skincare |
Thank you for the explanation. I can see you've been doing your homework. I've done some research of my own, and got to the same answers concerning the use of Argireline and Dmae in the same cream, so I just want to add a little more to what you've said. Some highly celebrated anti wrinkle treatments contain both of the mentioned actives; Alphaderma CE, Revitol, Erase, Anna Pegova's, among many others. I sent inquiries to the Personal Formulator and to the makers of Revitol and Alphaderma CE. All the responses were the same; Argireline and Dmae can indeed be combined and they don't cancel each other at all. About my personal experience with both actives, I can say that has worked greatly so far and I'm very happy with my decision. I've been using my cream for only a month and I can surely say this has worked better than retinol for me; the appearance of my skin has changed greatly, and the lines under my eyes are much less visible. I'm not that old, I'm 31 and my skin is still in great shape, but I do have a few lines under my eyes (I laugh a lot, you know), so I decided to take care of that problem before it got any worse. Because of what I see these actives can do to your skin in only a month,I'll stick with them period!
Have a great skin day!   |
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Brazilian Girl |
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Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:02 am |
There are no peer reviewed articles on Argireline, all of the research has been done by interested parties. I know people at Yale who work in similar areas and they question the selectivity that you mention. It's probably weak but who knows.
On Botox there are plenty of articles stating "reversible and rarely irrersible muscle atrophy". Most claim long term safely but the only articles cited for this are two Roche company artcles in 1997 and 1995. with no long term data.
The scariest article I found was
Ansved et al. Neurology, 48 (5), 1997
pg. 1440-1442 talking about Botox injections into the cervix and "distant" (their word) muscle fiber deterioration in the legs. This was for higher doses than used for the face but still worrying.
I think the bottom line is that there is no real long term safety work. Both the good and bad reports are generally anecdotal and not good science. Nearly all of the peer reviewed articles even by universities are funded by interested parties. The ones that aren't are those for use in other medical conditions such as muscle tremors in the hands.
I'd rather use things I know will not cause a problem eventually. |
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Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:32 pm |
I just wanted to chime in one more time about this subject. I don't know who sharkey is but I find it hard to beleive that anyone who takes the word of 1 doctor as gospel is serious about the knowledge behind the ingredients and what the proper formula can accomplish. If you look up AlphaDerma and see all the DERMATOLOGISTS and SKIN CARE SURGEONS who are promoting and selling the AlphaDerma all over the world I think that says all that is needed. Plain and simple each one of these doctore especially Dr Peter Rullan specifically discusses the benefits of using the DMAE and Argireline in combination as tramendous and innovative in thinking. I would also like to point out that AlphaDerma was the first to use the combination along with NV Perricone who did his clinical studies at Yale University. Dr Rullan was just awarded for writing a paper on a certain type of skin therapy and has had a tramendous career and is respected by all in the industry. I beg anyone who is worried by this thread or the person pushing it with I might ad no back up data to read what Dr Rullan has to say on our site about the specific combination of the ingredients and that is why he bought and endorsed the item because we did something that no other skin care company had done. I also wish for anyone who questions his accomplishments and knowledge to please call his office and they will discuss the topic with you. More and more companies every day come out like weeds and more and more are using the same formulas. The reason for that is because it works. The other comment about using argireline all over the face as being bad is rediculous. Again it is not as cut and dry as Sharkey is saying and AH3 is fine to use all over the face and neck and body. AlphaDerma is marketed for face and body and it works well on both. There is no problem and it does not have to be spot used. That sounds like someone who has a spot wrinkle product and is trying to convince people that is all it is good for. Not so!! Again I can produce many photos that are real and show incredible benefits and not one negative in the hundreds of thousands that have been sold. I guess all that is left to be remarked on again is please show us any real non touched up photos of AH3 doing what you say and then I will be intrigued by the claim and will study further. Until then without any thing to back up these claims this thread really needs to move on to something that has merit. I would not put a product on the market that would harm anyone; my family and I have been in this industry for over 33years and have the resources to know what is good and what is just hype. This is not hype, this is a safe alternative which people should not be scared away. I mean no disrespect to anyone but this is really bothering me as I worked very hard on formulating a product that has helped thousands of people and it would be a shame for other people to be scared away by just talk. Not by the way just my AH3 items but many others that are good on the market today and can help others as well.
quote="sharky"]There are no peer reviewed articles on Argireline, all of the research has been done by interested parties. I know people at Yale who work in similar areas and they question the selectivity that you mention. It's probably weak but who knows.
On Botox there are plenty of articles stating "reversible and rarely irrersible muscle atrophy". Most claim long term safely but the only articles cited for this are two Roche company artcles in 1997 and 1995. with no long term data.
The scariest article I found was
Ansved et al. Neurology, 48 (5), 1997
pg. 1440-1442 talking about Botox injections into the cervix and "distant" (their word) muscle fiber deterioration in the legs. This was for higher doses than used for the face but still worrying.
I think the bottom line is that there is no real long term safety work. Both the good and bad reports are generally anecdotal and not good science. Nearly all of the peer reviewed articles even by universities are funded by interested parties. The ones that aren't are those for use in other medical conditions such as muscle tremors in the hands.
I'd rather use things I know will not cause a problem eventually.[/quote] |
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JB Cosmeceuticals |
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Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:35 am |
| Ian S. wrote: |
I just wanted to chime in one more time about this subject. I don't know who sharkey is but I find it hard to beleive that anyone who takes the word of 1 doctor as gospel is serious about the knowledge behind the ingredients and what the proper formula can accomplish. If you look up AlphaDerma and see all the DERMATOLOGISTS and SKIN CARE SURGEONS who are promoting and selling the AlphaDerma all over the world I think that says all that is needed. Plain and simple each one of these doctore especially Dr Peter Rullan specifically discusses the benefits of using the DMAE and Argireline in combination as tramendous and innovative in thinking. I would also like to point out that AlphaDerma was the first to use the combination along with NV Perricone who did his clinical studies at Yale University. Dr Rullan was just awarded for writing a paper on a certain type of skin therapy and has had a tramendous career and is respected by all in the industry. I beg anyone who is worried by this thread or the person pushing it with I might ad no back up data to read what Dr Rullan has to say on our site about the specific combination of the ingredients and that is why he bought and endorsed the item because we did something that no other skin care company had done. I also wish for anyone who questions his accomplishments and knowledge to please call his office and they will discuss the topic with you. More and more companies every day come out like weeds and more and more are using the same formulas. The reason for that is because it works. The other comment about using argireline all over the face as being bad is rediculous. Again it is not as cut and dry as Sharkey is saying and AH3 is fine to use all over the face and neck and body. AlphaDerma is marketed for face and body and it works well on both. There is no problem and it does not have to be spot used. That sounds like someone who has a spot wrinkle product and is trying to convince people that is all it is good for. Not so!! Again I can produce many photos that are real and show incredible benefits and not one negative in the hundreds of thousands that have been sold. I guess all that is left to be remarked on again is please show us any real non touched up photos of AH3 doing what you say and then I will be intrigued by the claim and will study further. Until then without any thing to back up these claims this thread really needs to move on to something that has merit. I would not put a product on the market that would harm anyone; my family and I have been in this industry for over 33years and have the resources to know what is good and what is just hype. This is not hype, this is a safe alternative which people should not be scared away. I mean no disrespect to anyone but this is really bothering me as I worked very hard on formulating a product that has helped thousands of people and it would be a shame for other people to be scared away by just talk. Not by the way just my AH3 items but many others that are good on the market today and can help others as well.
quote="sharky"]There are no peer reviewed articles on Argireline, all of the research has been done by interested parties. I know people at Yale who work in similar areas and they question the selectivity that you mention. It's probably weak but who knows.
On Botox there are plenty of articles stating "reversible and rarely irrersible muscle atrophy". Most claim long term safely but the only articles cited for this are two Roche company artcles in 1997 and 1995. with no long term data.
The scariest article I found was
Ansved et al. Neurology, 48 (5), 1997
pg. 1440-1442 talking about Botox injections into the cervix and "distant" (their word) muscle fiber deterioration in the legs. This was for higher doses than used for the face but still worrying.
I think the bottom line is that there is no real long term safety work. Both the good and bad reports are generally anecdotal and not good science. Nearly all of the peer reviewed articles even by universities are funded by interested parties. The ones that aren't are those for use in other medical conditions such as muscle tremors in the hands.
I'd rather use things I know will not cause a problem eventually. |
[/quote]
I absolutely agree with you Ian. I'm not any expert nor a chemist, but I can tell you I'm simply thrilled with the results of the combination of Argireline and Dmae (+ Matrixyl, too). Nothing EVER has helped my skin like those actives. They talk and talk about the benefits of Retinol. Let me tell you; I've used retinol for quite some time and I actually didn't see any wrinkle reduction in my skin whatsoever. I will definitely stick with my actives, because they do work! |
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Brazilian Girl |
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Shan
New Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 1
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Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:44 pm |
| I'm so glad I found this site as the discussions are very interesting. I am a 44 year old female and although I've spent a good deal of my younger days taking care of my skin, age has a way of creeping in wrinkles and making the skin look less than firm and youthful. In case anyone is interested, I've been using the Cellbone line for about six months and I can honestly say that it works. I have found a large difference in the firmness of my skin. People have commented that my face looks radiant. After decades of using lots of makeup, I actually like my skin with less makeup now b ecause it looks better, more even, smoother. I have found a profound difference with the wrinkles on my forehead, under eye area and around my mouth and neck. I don't know if anyone out there is my age but if you are or have wrinkles or uneven skintone, try this line if you can. I absolutely love the HA20 mask and use Moist'Seal over Erase and Repair in the morning and the Restore at night. I've tried some of the other products listed here as well as the more expensive LaPrarie, LaMer SKII, Kanebo, etc. Nothing has worked for me as well as this line and those are all good lines. My 31 year old boyfriend has been using it and loves it as well. That is a success as it is very hard to get a man to take care of his skin. And I've saved so much money. |
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