Anyone has heard of Bone facial exercise?
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free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:47 am

faeriedust wrote:

I dont think critic is attacking flex effect. I guess she feels ripped off since she paid a lot, couldnt get a refund and deb looks kinda old. I would probably feel the same way as her. I've heard the flex effect book isnt coloured but in black and white. Compared to the books she bought which are coloured and the price difference between them and flex effect, it's alot.
I dont think there's a battle between these programmes. People are just making comparisons on the quality, price and efficacy. Just like people comparing tanda, quasar and lightstim etc.

Manufacturing costs in Asia are entirely different from the USA/most of Europe - it's not really a fair comparison. And when manufacturing for a specialised market in the West, costs are even greater.

Also, whilst many of the links that have been provided look fascinating, it's frustrating to not be able to read/understand them. Madame Tanaka would do well for herself financially to translate her amazing methods into English!

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:55 am

Faeriedust - I can understand your viewpoint based on her recent postings, but there has been many others before. I suspect part of the issue is the translator being used isn't giving us the best words (both in Critic's messages and in its translation of ours), but I have been privay to many messages which have been outright attacks against FE.

Yes the book is in black and white, and its a family owned business that is run by Deb and her family, not a major corporation producing millions of books. Critic could have got a refund if she returned it within a timeframe, and contacted the office when it first arrived, but she didn't. Thats a point that I believe was made before. Also her words about Deb were for want of a better word hurtful. Although I am sure Deb wouldn't care about them, those of us who do know her are of course a little protective of her.

This is just my experience, and of course everyone is free to arrive at their own conclusion, but I just wanted to ask that question out aloud.

I'm glad you don't feel there is a battle, lets hope everyone else feels like you do.

Sean

faeriedust wrote:

I dont think critic is attacking flex effect. I guess she feels ripped off since she paid a lot, couldnt get a refund and deb looks kinda old. I would probably feel the same way as her. I've heard the flex effect book isnt coloured but in black and white. Compared to the books she bought which are coloured and the price difference between them and flex effect, it's alot.
I dont think there's a battle between these programmes. People are just making comparisons on the quality, price and efficacy. Just like people comparing tanda, quasar and lightstim etc.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:03 am

LOL well I have hearded that saying before and I’m not entirely sure its true though. However whilst there is a different between men and women, I think its interesting to note that whilst men don’t have the same arguments or challenges to deal with at the same time as women, they do often encounter them later on. For some reason though Men are much more relaxed about it (but that may be changing as I hear men are now mainstream candidates for cosmetic surgery so that’s definitely on the increase). Its interesting that when the hormones start playing up for men, its more that they worry about things like their libido, and hair loss etc but their skin does change as a result. Its not uncommon for a man to age very well into his later years and then suddenly appear to change overnight to age 10 years older.

As I say the loss of fat with facial exercises, I’m pretty convinced is due to the body needing extra fuel, and then not having sufficient fuel and so then it will eat into facial fat. Its interesting to me to note that many people often say they get gaunt, and then blame the exercises without ever giving thought to the diet (and its something I have seen so many times) and yet there is still a disbelief that its diet but it must be the exercises, and to some degree that’s true but its not revealing the bigger picture in my mind. Society tends to brainwash us that carbs are bad, but carbs are basically energy for our bodies. As with anything it’s a question of balance, too many carbs of course is not healthy, but you want to ensure your body has sufficient carbs for being able to move about comfortably and do exercises, and then sufficient protein to repair from the exercises. If either part is missing then this will hinder successful results appearing.

Its not so much about altering your weight, but ensuring your body has sufficient supplies to workout and recuperate from the workout and that’s something that takes time to learn and explore with, but you know snacking on healthy snacks like nuts throughout the day, and eating healthily makes this so much easier, and I certainly believe its possible to maintain your weight and your facial structure and get results from facial exercise programs without giving one up for the other - albeit it takes time to learn to do properly.

Sean

graceless_lady wrote:

SeanySeanUK wrote:

I've said this before on FE forum, but many times when gauntness shows up I am convinced its diet related.

Many people I have heard complain of guantness in the past always say they are eating exactly the same thing before they started facial exercises, and so it can't be diet - but thats exactly what it is. Let me put it this way, we are increasing your body's needs for fuel (i.e. both protein and calories and fats etc), and so when you start facial exercises, your body's demands for those are going to be higher. If your still consuming the same amount of calories etc, as when you started, your body is going to look for fuel whereever it has a source that it can use for such purpose. Sometimes it will turn to fat, and even facial fat. This is one of the reasons why I believe people look gaunt, because their body has insufficient calories to recuperate, and so the body goes on a search for fuel, and will use facial fat in the process to recuperate. Its not a permanent thing, but its an interesting conversation topic that I'm currently writing about in greater depth - so the above is a short snippet but its an interesting one that might help people.

I think you are right - and I think this is a big problem with facial exercises as the loss of fat from the face is, in my opinion, even more aging than lines.

It's often said that as we age women (interestingly, not men!) have to choose between their body or their face ... if you carry some extra weight, your face will at least look softer; and if you've managed to keep your figure, your face will often be too thin/gaunt. One of my best friends who was blessed with amazing cheekbones and a slim figure has suffered from this as she approaches 50 - her face has narrowed dramatically and she looks very 'hard' as a result.

As I said in an earlier post, I had quite a round face in my younger days and so consequently the loss of fat in my face has not contributed too much to my personal aging woes. I agree with your assertion, Sean, that the gauntness I experienced whilst doing Ageless is likely because I am on the slim side and probably needed to alter my diet. But I work hard to maintain my weight as I refuse to make the choice between my body and my face: my 25-inch waist is one of my most potent weapons in keeping me looking ten years younger!

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:10 am

Actually thats a really good point that I was just about to say - but probably wouldn't have been able to put it in such a graceful way (graceless lady is actually graceful).

Also I think that the translator tool doesn't always do us the best of favours at times. I know both Critic and Sean, and you both are immensely helpful to me, and actually are both wonderful sources of information, but I think at times that perhaps the translation of messages isn't 100% exact and often open to misinterpretation.

Theresa

graceless_lady wrote:

faeriedust wrote:

I dont think critic is attacking flex effect. I guess she feels ripped off since she paid a lot, couldnt get a refund and deb looks kinda old. I would probably feel the same way as her. I've heard the flex effect book isnt coloured but in black and white. Compared to the books she bought which are coloured and the price difference between them and flex effect, it's alot.
I dont think there's a battle between these programmes. People are just making comparisons on the quality, price and efficacy. Just like people comparing tanda, quasar and lightstim etc.

Manufacturing costs in Asia are entirely different from the USA/most of Europe - it's not really a fair comparison. And when manufacturing for a specialised market in the West, costs are even greater.

Also, whilst many of the links that have been provided look fascinating, it's frustrating to not be able to read/understand them. Madame Tanaka would do well for herself financially to translate her amazing methods into English!

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:07 am

critic wrote:

When you are doing the massage, try to use more strength and press 'harder', you should feel pain but it's a comfortable pain, not a hurting pain. My arms are usually tired and sore after each massage.

Critic, going back a few pages (but only yesterday!) you wrote that you use strength. I just wanted to check that all important 'final move'.
In the translation vid it says this;

"Turn palms up to 90 degrees down and reducing the force of impact, lead them to the sides of the face to the ears then, from the ears - please wrap up the movement of holes on her collar bones, fending off the face of the lymph.".

The English isn't great but I gathered this to mean the 'final movement' down the sides of the face to the neck should be gentle.

Can you (or anyone?) confirm this to be correct? It is such a vital part of the massage, I would like to know that I'm doing it correctly.

BTW, many thanks for your pics - keep on taking them, they are a wonderful example.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:34 am

faeriedust wrote:

I dont think critic is attacking flex effect. I guess she feels ripped off since she paid a lot, couldnt get a refund and deb looks kinda old. I would probably feel the same way as her. I've heard the flex effect book isnt coloured but in black and white. Compared to the books she bought which are coloured and the price difference between them and flex effect, it's alot.
I dont think there's a battle between these programmes. People are just making comparisons on the quality, price and efficacy. Just like people comparing tanda, quasar and lightstim etc.

Thanks, you have explained exactly what I want to say. It stated in the FE purchase that is no refund no return.

The bone massage program with DVD is printed and produced in Japan, the cost in Japan is very high but the price is very reasonable and quality is unbeatable!

As a consumer, we should have the right to compare.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:55 am

I think for the final part, you massage zig zag across the forehead.
Then place your palm in front of your ears and slide towards the collar bone. You dont have to use any strength. Actually when you do the lymph massage movement which is sliding from the ears to collarbone, you dont need to use any strength. The pressure is applied on the face. If Im not wrong.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:04 am

The only way it could be a no refund is if you bought the Closeout Sale price? I thought from your previous messages you had purchased it some time ago prior to that. I know FE has accepted returns without issue before, but it has to be within a time frame (of which I'm sure I remember it was 30 days or something). If you bought the product in the Closeout Sale price, then there would be no refund. Tell me Critic, did you contact the office upon receiving your order?

You have consumer rights of course to compare, but your were not comparing in your original posts you were making negative comments which I felt were uncalled for. I have made no negative comments about the routine you posted, in fact have complimented it as regards to lymphatic drainage etc, but you have not mentioned any of the benefits of FE. In fact when I mentioned FE was one of the first programs I encountered that recommended massage, you said I was attacking it for which I was not. It was simply saying that I had not come into contact with any other facial program that recommended massage as much prior to FE.

As for comparison, I think there are good reasons stated above as to why its unfair. You have not compared Ageless against your bone technique or FE - but have said you simply do not do it any longer, which doesn't seem a fair comparison to me.

Either way I am happy you have found what works for you.

critic wrote:

Thanks, you have explained exactly what I want to say. It stated in the FE purchase that is no refund no return.

The bone massage program with DVD is printed and produced in Japan, the cost in Japan is very high but the price is very reasonable and quality is unbeatable!

As a consumer, we should have the right to compare.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:05 am

When doing lymph massage movements, you put some pressure on the nodes, to stimulate the body to release toxins, but from what I gathered from others postings on this, that there is a lot of pressure to some slight pain. Maybe Critic can best clarify - as she is the expert!

faeriedust wrote:

I think for the final part, you massage zig zag across the forehead.
Then place your palm in front of your ears and slide towards the collar bone. You dont have to use any strength. Actually when you do the lymph massage movement which is sliding from the ears to collarbone, you dont need to use any strength. The pressure is applied on the face. If Im not wrong.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:09 am

faeriedust wrote:

I think for the final part, you massage zig zag across the forehead.
Then place your palm in front of your ears and slide towards the collar bone. You dont have to use any strength. Actually when you do the lymph massage movement which is sliding from the ears to collarbone, you dont need to use any strength. The pressure is applied on the face. If Im not wrong.

Sorry I meant the 'final reception' as the move to the collarbone is called in the translated vid.

So this move is always done without pressure.
Critic is this what you do?

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:19 am

I dont know about critic but I dont apply any pressure when sliding from in front of the ear down to the neck and collarbone. The movement has to be quite slow too.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:32 am

TheresaMary wrote:

Actually thats a really good point that I was just about to say - but probably wouldn't have been able to put it in such a graceful way (graceless lady is actually graceful).

Also I think that the translator tool doesn't always do us the best of favours at times. I know both Critic and Sean, and you both are immensely helpful to me, and actually are both wonderful sources of information, but I think at times that perhaps the translation of messages isn't 100% exact and often open to misinterpretation.

Thanks, TheresaMary - I definitely aspire to be graceful in life, but "graceless_lady" is a lyric from one of my favourite songs (although it was recently butchered by one of those "talent show" contestants!).

Back on topic ... Has anyone been able to figure out what 'massage cream' Madame Tanaka is using in the videos? It looks very rich and white (and appealing) I'm a bit concerned about using oils on my face whilst I massage as I didn't fare too well when I attempted OCM.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:34 am

I'm interested to know what the official book says too, but I figure if it works for you then great.

I know from when I learned lymphatic massage, we would often rest the hands on the lymph nodes, and it was only resting as the teacher used to describe the heat from the palms would do the job for a good few seconds, and then you would massage quite intensely, but that was both full body and facial massage, and so often we started from the calfs, under arms etc, then did a similar routine (though not identical) to that thats posted working from the top of the head down to the chin, and then onto the torso.

It would be done using heavy pressure, as the trick was to stimulate the body to release lymphatic blockages and by using pressure, the brain registered a particular area was under attack so to speak, and thus would send signals to the tense area to release as a result.

Like most things, I suspect there are many different methods of doing it, but I think yours is worthwhile mentioning faeriedust!

faeriedust wrote:

I dont know about critic but I dont apply any pressure when sliding from in front of the ear down to the neck and collarbone. The movement has to be quite slow too.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:37 am

Hi there... I'm not even going to comment on comparisons...

However, it is 100% inaccurate to state that FlexEffect does not offer a refund on the DVD Book package.

A person has always had 30 days to return their product. If they live in an area that took a long time to receive the product, then that has always been extended. A communication is necessary for this to take place. This information is also in the back of the book. Obviously, if you don't read it... well... I can't really help with that.

There WAS/IS a no return policy on items that we sell at a discount that are virtually obsolete. For Example, the VHS video. The 2nd edition book/DVD that is soon to be replaced has also been discounted, and NOW also has a NO RETURN on it.

It is of note that most DVD and CD policies NEVER allow returns. Why? Because they can be copied. We actually NOW have to contemplate not accepting payal as now the common tactic is to just contact paypal and say the product was never rec'd. Paypal just hands back a refund. We have unfortunately been burned by this. In fact the rate of occurrence is so high from some countries that one wonders about the integrity or effectiveness of their postal service (surely the entire country does not lie about receiving products!) and considers not selling to certain countries all together.

I recognize that a language barrier might prevent a person from understanding this situation. However, such a person should also recognize this to be their problem as well... and not make false advertisements based on their language barriers.

Critic... You should put your product on E-bay. I'm sure it will be purchased quickly. Please include the Workshop code (with the product, not on the advertisement) that you rec'd with your book so that the person may take it over. If you don't have that information, please PM me with your purchase information. I will track down your code, and you can attach it to your e-bay auction. This is really a simple remedy. Wouldn't you say?

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:39 am

Critic... Would love to see your photos...

Thanks...

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:39 am

LOL good question I was wondering the same, and she seems to use quite a lot of it. Critic also gave me tips on the hand massage earlier on that she advises, but I am struggling with it. She gave me another link and that looks like if your giving someone else a hand massage. I'd love to know Tanaka's secrets to how her hands look so young.

graceless_lady wrote:

Thanks, TheresaMary - I definitely aspire to be graceful in life, but "graceless_lady" is a lyric from one of my favourite songs (although it was recently butchered by one of those "talent show" contestants!).

Back on topic ... Has anyone been able to figure out what 'massage cream' Madame Tanaka is using in the videos? It looks very rich and white (and appealing) I'm a bit concerned about using oils on my face whilst I massage as I didn't fare too well when I attempted OCM.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:59 am

graceless_lady wrote:

.

Back on topic ... Has anyone been able to figure out what 'massage cream' Madame Tanaka is using in the videos? It looks very rich and white (and appealing) I'm a bit concerned about using oils on my face whilst I massage as I didn't fare too well when I attempted OCM.

The one that Tanaka recommended is called "SUQQU Musculate Massage Cream".

Here is the link: http://www.suqqu.com/global/product/skin/musculate_massage_cream.html

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:10 am

moonstone wrote:

graceless_lady wrote:

.

Back on topic ... Has anyone been able to figure out what 'massage cream' Madame Tanaka is using in the videos? It looks very rich and white (and appealing) I'm a bit concerned about using oils on my face whilst I massage as I didn't fare too well when I attempted OCM.

The one that Tanaka recommended is called "SUQQU Musculate Massage Cream".

Here is the link: http://www.suqqu.com/global/product/skin/musculate_massage_cream.html

Thanks, Moonstone! Found it on eBay UK and unfortunately it's outside my price range (£91/$150). I might just use the Liz Earle cleanser instead ...

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:15 am

Critic mentioned that she does it with facial cleanser.

I had it done with either oil, oily serum, or the cream - worked in all cases.

I am not sure what Toby is using, but, perhaps, she can chime in.

On the Russian Forum they recommended any massage cream, or Oatmeal milk.

It seems that anything that does not evaporate and allows the hand to slide without pulling the skin should be good.

HTH

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:15 am

There appears to be a massage technique you can do with that cream in itself which I'm reading now with interest:

http://www.suqqu.com/global/about/gankin.html

graceless_lady wrote:

moonstone wrote:

graceless_lady wrote:

.

Back on topic ... Has anyone been able to figure out what 'massage cream' Madame Tanaka is using in the videos? It looks very rich and white (and appealing) I'm a bit concerned about using oils on my face whilst I massage as I didn't fare too well when I attempted OCM.

The one that Tanaka recommended is called "SUQQU Musculate Massage Cream".

Here is the link: http://www.suqqu.com/global/product/skin/musculate_massage_cream.html

Thanks, Moonstone! Found it on eBay UK and unfortunately it's outside my price range (£91/$150). I might just use the Liz Earle cleanser instead ...

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:30 am

TheresaMary wrote:

There appears to be a massage technique you can do with that cream in itself which I'm reading now with interest:

http://www.suqqu.com/global/about/gankin.html

I just found out that lady Tanaka is the creator of SUQQU skincare and makeup brand. No wonder that Gankin massage looks very similar to Tanaka's massage! Wink

For those of you who can understand Chinese/Japanese, here is a link with more specific instructions for Tanaka's massage:

http://gabaana.pixnet.net/blog/post/21615027

Even if you don't understand the language, I guess it is helpful to look at the pictures where they show details for the part of fingers/palms to use during each exercise.

HTH

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:34 am

Doesn't surprise me, but the details on the factsheet are also in English - and it looks incredibly similar pictures wise etc so thats certainly worth a look! There is three in total with diagrams and wording (hurray!!!).

moonstone wrote:

TheresaMary wrote:

There appears to be a massage technique you can do with that cream in itself which I'm reading now with interest:

http://www.suqqu.com/global/about/gankin.html

I just found out that lady Tanaka is the creator of SUQQU skincare and makeup brand. No wonder that Gankin massage looks very similar to Tanaka's massage! Wink

For those of you who can understand Chinese/Japanese, here is a link with more specific instructions for Tanaka's massage:

http://gabaana.pixnet.net/blog/post/21615027

Even if you don't understand the language, I guess it is helpful to look at the pictures where they show details for the part of fingers/palms to use during each exercise.

HTH

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:18 am

I only just came across this thread, and don't have time to read it all (got essay to do) but just wanted to say what has probably already been said i.e. when you exercise muscle (anywhere in the body) it has an effect on surrounding tissues including bones, due to increae of blood supply. So, my point is that you can't keep bones out of the frame, anyway... Laughing

I find the mention of continued (and negative - concerning appearance anyway) bone growth as you age disturbing! Surely direct pressure on these bony structures would increase the blood supply to the area and so be inextrixably mixed in with the way facial exercise works anyway? So, how could we ever say that we are purely and simply stressing the bones, alone ... Rolling Eyes

Something here is confusing me... If anyone has a minute, would you give me a quick response to these questions? Otherwise, I'll come back whwne I've done this essay and just read the whole thread through. Thanks. Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:42 am

sigma wrote:

Critic mentioned that she does it with facial cleanser.

I had it done with either oil, oily serum, or the cream - worked in all cases.

I am not sure what Toby is using, but, perhaps, she can chime in.

On the Russian Forum they recommended any massage cream, or Oatmeal milk.

It seems that anything that does not evaporate and allows the hand to slide without pulling the skin should be good.

HTH

I use oil and it works well with that.

free skin care · Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:04 pm

After viewing critic's photos again today, I did observe something interesting. There seems to be some similarities between Critic and me. We are both Asians in a similar age group. And we both have relatively good skins with some sagging issues before attempting any facial exercises. We also take very good care of ourselves in terms of skincare and diets.

Then we started doing facial exercises at about the same time last year. Critics only did three months of those exercises and switched to Tanaka's massage while I kept doing resistance exercises for almost one year!

Her face in the recent photos looks sooooo young and refresh, while my face does look a bit gaunt and tired than before. People would probably guess that we were about the same ages last year. But now, a year later, people will most likely think I'm 10+ years older than her if we are standing right next to each other! I could never believe applying different techniques on our faces will make such a huge difference before seeing her photos... Rolling Eyes

And I can't stop but wonder if resistance programs are really suitable techniques for everyone when it comes to skin rejuvenation.

Seems like I have lots of catch-up to do and the results I saw from critic will definitely keep me motivated!!! (keeping my fingers crossed that I will look as good as Critic one year later... Laughing

)

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