DermaRoller
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free skin care · Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:12 pm

bethany wrote:

Thanks for sharing though...I needed a good laugh! Very Happy

Bethany, with all the research and articles you have posted here for us on rolling, I knew you would get a laugh out of it.
I use to be a big Paula fan but not so much any more. Although I do think she has some good products, I'm not interested in her reviews any more.

free skin care · Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:43 pm

I believe Paula Begoun is right that there is a lack of published medical research proving that skin needling will boost collagen production and improve scars.

The studies I have seen that are posted on this forum do not meet the criteria of scientific research. Many of the studies are highly biased as they are conducted by manufacturers and doctors offering this treatment.

I would say that the rollergirls here are taking part in an experiment. There is undoubtedly a lack of independent research suggesting that this treatment really will be effective. Some have had good results (lucky women), and some have not.

free skin care · Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:25 pm

Septembergirl wrote:

I would say that the rollergirls here are taking part in an experiment. There is undoubtedly a lack of independent research suggesting that this treatment really will be effective. Some have had good results (lucky women), and some have not.

All I can say is this rollergirl's VERY happy with the results thus far.

And it is still early days for me.

free skin care · Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:32 pm

Septembergirl wrote:

I believe Paula Begoun is right that there is a lack of published medical research proving that skin needling will boost collagen production and improve scars.

The studies I have seen that are posted on this forum do not meet the criteria of scientific research. Many of the studies are highly biased as they are conducted by manufacturers and doctors offering this treatment.

I would say that the rollergirls here are taking part in an experiment. There is undoubtedly a lack of independent research suggesting that this treatment really will be effective. Some have had good results (lucky women), and some have not.

I agree with the lack of independent research. But unfortunately, I have yet to find any. And if I waited for independent research for everything in my life, my life would be quite limited! Besides...just because research shows that it works on some people, doesn't mean that it will work for me. Everything is pretty much a crap shoot these days, sigh. I just try to educate myself and make the best decisions I can...sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't.

Fortunately, I am definitely one of the lucky ones with dermarolling results. Too bad I didn't try this BEFORE wasting my money on Fraxel.

free skin care · Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:35 pm

GirlieGirl wrote:

bethany wrote:

Thanks for sharing though...I needed a good laugh! Very Happy

Bethany, with all the research and articles you have posted here for us on rolling, I knew you would get a laugh out of it.
I use to be a big Paula fan but not so much any more. Although I do think she has some good products, I'm not interested in her reviews any more.

I think she has some good products as well. However, she is no longer unbiased, and she doesn't appear to do much quality research any more. Sad

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:25 am

I'm excited that some of you are seeing such great results. My face exploded in a breakout so I won't be able to try the dermaroller anytime soon Sad

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:26 am

Coconut wrote:

I'm excited that some of you are seeing such great results. My face exploded in a breakout so I won't be able to try the dermaroller anytime soon Sad

I'm sorry. Sad

But you are smart to not roll until it is fully healed...you do not want to spread the bacteria elsewhere on your face.

Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:27 pm

I'm a laser technician and have been interested in this discussion, but I'm looking for some real hard evidence to suggest this actually works. It seems to me that what most of you percieve to be results could be nothing more than microswelling. Who has had long term results (the kinds of results that are still apparent a year after your last roll)? Where are the before and afters? I understand the science behind this device, and in theory it has some validity, but the way it is implemented makes me question whether or not it's any better than a "twigs and berries" approach to skin care. Even with the Fraxel laser, which is capable of producing MANY more micro-injuries per square inch than this rolling pin is, results are not often seen in some patients. And with fractional lasers true injuries are created, setting off the cascade of events that lead to a true collagan building healing process. With the rapidly healing micro-injuries that are being created by the dermaroller, I have a difficult time believing that they will build enough collagen lead to any long term visible improvements in the skin - especially with the less invasive treatments many of you are doing in your homes. Not meaning to crash the party, and I would like to be proven wrong...

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:57 pm

emmany wrote:

I'm a laser technician and have been interested in this discussion, but I'm looking for some real hard evidence to suggest this actually works. ... Not meaning to crash the party, and I would like to be proven wrong...

I would suggest that you contact Dr. Des Fernandes or Dr. Horst Liebl (the inventors), or perhaps Dr. Andres Bustillo in Miami who is supposed to be publishing a study on his usage of the Environ roller within his practice. Those would be the most appropriate people to answer your questions, and since you are in the business, I am sure they would be glad to correspond with you on a professional level.

Dr. Liebl can be most easily reached via his blog since he is not located in the US:
http://dermaroller.wordpress.com/

Dr. Bustillo's contact info is at his website:
http://www.drbustillo.com/

Dr. Des Fernandes' contact info can also be found at his personal website:
http://www.drdes.co.za/

In the meantime, if you would like to prepare for your talks with them, here is a thread with the limited information that we have been able to find online. There are some before and afters pics included as you requested.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:04 pm

bethany wrote:

I rolled my neck, chest, and breasts last night with the 1.5mm roller....I am actually shocked I got through it.

I just wanted to share an observation from using the 1.5mm roller...it definitely causes me to peel way more after a roll.

I rolled on Saturday evening, and did NOT apply Retin A since I will break out in hives if I do so in those areas. However, I was already peeling on my neck this morning at the lines, and my chest has started to peel this evening. Interesting.

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:25 pm

bethany wrote:

I rolled my neck, chest, and breasts last night with the 1.5mm roller....I am actually shocked I got through it.

I just wanted to share an observation from using the 1.5mm roller...it definitely causes me to peel way more after a roll.

I rolled on Saturday evening, and did NOT apply Retin A since I will break out in hives if I do so in those areas. However, I was already peeling on my neck this morning at the lines, and my chest has started to peel this evening. Interesting.

That is so interesting, Bethany. I have never had any type of peeling using the dermaroller. Why do you think there is peeling involved for you?

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:26 pm

Bethany that's amazing. It takes a week for me to start peeling, but I would more call mine a heavy flaking, comparable to when I did 2 layers of 12.5% TCA.

Emmany I aren't 12 months post rolls, so can't tell you how my long term results will be. I also didn't take any before photos.
I do hope you're proven wrong too.

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:05 pm

rileygirl wrote:

bethany wrote:

I rolled my neck, chest, and breasts last night with the 1.5mm roller....I am actually shocked I got through it.

I just wanted to share an observation from using the 1.5mm roller...it definitely causes me to peel way more after a roll.

I rolled on Saturday evening, and did NOT apply Retin A since I will break out in hives if I do so in those areas. However, I was already peeling on my neck this morning at the lines, and my chest has started to peel this evening. Interesting.

That is so interesting, Bethany. I have never had any type of peeling using the dermaroller. Why do you think there is peeling involved for you?

Mishey wrote:

Bethany that's amazing. It takes a week for me to start peeling, but I would more call mine a heavy flaking, comparable to when I did 2 layers of 12.5% TCA.

Riley and Mishey, I have no idea why I peel like this, but the same thing happened when I rolled my face and arms with the 1.5mm the first time...sheets of skin came off in that instance, but I used RA there.

I attribute some of it to the trauma, but I'm not really sure how that fits into the whole wound healing cascade thing. This time it is more flake-like, but there are LOTS of flakes. I look like I have neck/chest dandruff! Shock

But with all the people getting sunburns and then peeling in FL, I guess I don't look too out of place. (except that only limited parts of me are bright red at a time) Embarassed

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:07 pm

Welcome emmany,
Please tell us more about your experiences with Laser treatments.
I was surprised to read the home laser thread and you didnt share any thoughts.
Smile

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:44 pm

Hi Emmany,

Welcome to the forum!

Quote:

With the rapidly healing micro-injuries that are being created by the dermaroller, I have a difficult time believing that they will build enough collagen lead to any long term visible improvements in the skin - especially with the less invasive treatments many of you are doing in your homes. Not meaning to crash the party, and I would like to be proven wrong...

Your skepticism is definitely understood. I've just started dermarolling myself - and am waiting to see the results - and whether they will be in any way comparable to laser treatments.

Having had five professional (administered by a dermatologist - who does *only* cosmetic dermatology and specializes in laser treatments - so it's not a matter of skill level, IMHO) - I feel comfortable in being able to judge how dermarolling compares - at least in my case. I was NOT really impressed with Fraxel - at least for the issues that I had it done for (i.e. hyperpigmentation and minor wrinkling). In fact, the laser treatments caused some post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation that I am *still* trying to address and correct. To say that I am disappointed that I spent so much money on a series of treatments that made some things worse - is an understatement.

For me, home dermarolling may not be quite as aggressive as an in-office laser treatment, but the economies of scale are pretty clear.

Fraxel treatment - approximately $1,000 per

Home dermaroller - $75 (for the roller, which can be used multiple times) + $30 for numbing cream.

Even if the dermarolling doesn't give me the results I want - I think money that I *might* waste on the dermaroller - is quite a bit less than the thousands of dollars I feel that I wasted on lasers. Just MHO...

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:12 pm

skin care addict wrote:

Welcome emmany,
Please tell us more about your experiences with Laser treatments.
I was surprised to read the home laser thread and you didnt share any thoughts.
Smile

I am currently operating the Sciton Contour, Profractional and BBL (broad band light). I am also a fan (but not an operator) of fractional C02 lasers. I will make sure to stop by and discuss my thoughts in the home laser thread, which I haven't even actually seen yet (I stumbled on this discussion thread when researching dermarollers).

Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:38 pm

taobunny wrote:

Hi Emmany,

Welcome to the forum!

Quote:

With the rapidly healing micro-injuries that are being created by the dermaroller, I have a difficult time believing that they will build enough collagen lead to any long term visible improvements in the skin - especially with the less invasive treatments many of you are doing in your homes. Not meaning to crash the party, and I would like to be proven wrong...

Your skepticism is definitely understood. I've just started dermarolling myself - and am waiting to see the results - and whether they will be in any way comparable to laser treatments.

Having had five professional (administered by a dermatologist - who does *only* cosmetic dermatology and specializes in laser treatments - so it's not a matter of skill level, IMHO) - I feel comfortable in being able to judge how dermarolling compares - at least in my case. I was NOT really impressed with Fraxel - at least for the issues that I had it done for (i.e. hyperpigmentation and minor wrinkling). In fact, the laser treatments caused some post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation that I am *still* trying to address and correct. To say that I am disappointed that I spent so much money on a series of treatments that made some things worse - is an understatement.

For me, home dermarolling may not be quite as aggressive as an in-office laser treatment, but the economies of scale are pretty clear.

Fraxel treatment - approximately $1,000 per

Home dermaroller - $75 (for the roller, which can be used multiple times) + $30 for numbing cream.

Even if the dermarolling doesn't give me the results I want - I think money that I *might* waste on the dermaroller - is quite a bit less than the thousands of dollars I feel that I wasted on lasers. Just MHO...

The technology has come along way in the last couple of years and just because the Fraxel didn't work for you certainly doesn't mean the newer crop of lasers won't. Wink

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:48 pm

taobunny wrote:

Even if the dermarolling doesn't give me the results I want - I think money that I *might* waste on the dermaroller - is quite a bit less than the thousands of dollars I feel that I wasted on lasers. Just MHO...

I'm with you there!! There are some doctors who think that we might have actually made our pigmentation more permanent by cooking it with Fraxel. Sad

All for the bargain price of $3500 in my case, sigh.

I do know that the fractional CO2 lasers are supposedly much better, but I will no longer be the guinea pig and shell out that kind of money. When I see loads of rave reviews from independent consumers, only then will I consider going down that route again.

Until then, I will gather my twig and berries, and poke myself with my rolling pin, lol.

free skin care · Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:49 pm

emmany wrote:

skin care addict wrote:

Welcome emmany,
Please tell us more about your experiences with Laser treatments.
I was surprised to read the home laser thread and you didnt share any thoughts.
Smile

I am currently operating the Sciton Contour, Profractional and BBL (broad band light). I am also a fan (but not an operator) of fractional C02 lasers. I will make sure to stop by and discuss my thoughts in the home laser thread, which I haven't even actually seen yet (I stumbled on this discussion thread when researching dermarollers).

Emmany, what prompted you to research rolling?

Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:26 am

bethany wrote:

emmany wrote:

skin care addict wrote:

Welcome emmany,
Please tell us more about your experiences with Laser treatments.
I was surprised to read the home laser thread and you didnt share any thoughts.
Smile

I am currently operating the Sciton Contour, Profractional and BBL (broad band light). I am also a fan (but not an operator) of fractional C02 lasers. I will make sure to stop by and discuss my thoughts in the home laser thread, which I haven't even actually seen yet (I stumbled on this discussion thread when researching dermarollers).

Emmany, what prompted you to research rolling?

Just general curiousity seeing as to how similiar they are in concept to fractional lasers. It would be great if these things actually worked, but it would probably put me out of a job Laughing

Where is the laser forum by the way? I have
not been able to locate it.

Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:37 am

bethany wrote:

taobunny wrote:

Even if the dermarolling doesn't give me the results I want - I think money that I *might* waste on the dermaroller - is quite a bit less than the thousands of dollars I feel that I wasted on lasers. Just MHO...

I'm with you there!! There are some doctors who think that we might have actually made our pigmentation more permanent by cooking it with Fraxel. Sad

All for the bargain price of $3500 in my case, sigh.

I do know that the fractional CO2 lasers are supposedly much better, but I will no longer be the guinea pig and shell out that kind of money. When I see loads of rave reviews from independent consumers, only then will I consider going down that route again.

Until then, I will gather my twig and berries, and poke myself with my rolling pin, lol.

I agree with you that lasers are not nearly as safe as the medical community bills them to be. I really like the safety profile of these dermarollers, but unfortunately I think that is part of the reason why the results seem to be lacking. Don't create enough of an injury, and nothing happens. Create too much of an injury, and adverse reactions occur. It's all about hitting that sweet spot somewhere in between. I actually expect to see more adverse reactions with fractional C02 lasers (for the simple reason that they are using more powerful C02 energy), but on the other hand, the results have been far superior.

free skin care · Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:24 am

emmany wrote:

Where is the laser forum by the way? I have
not been able to locate it.

There is not a "laser forum" per se, but there are various threads on lasers...generally in the Skincare and Makeup Forum (this is the Skincare Tools forum...mostly for home tools).

Here is one where you can share an opinion:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=31177

free skin care · Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:04 pm

emmany - one of the other reasons to use the rollers is to help w/ penetration of skin care products that, in and of themselves, can help to rebuild damaged skin.

I, personally, have had great results w/ copper peptides. I may not be able to hit the 'sweet spot' w/ my rolling technique (even tho I hope to get better at it), but if I can allow my CPs better access to the deeper layers of the dermis and epidermis, then I know they will do a much better job. They already are doing a great job for me. Rolling w/ them will, I feel, produce signficant results.

free skin care · Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:20 pm

Quote:

The technology has come along way in the last couple of years and just because the Fraxel didn't work for you certainly doesn't mean the newer crop of lasers won't.

Emmany, I agree with you (to some extent) as I'm sure technology will continue to improve.

However, as my latest Fraxel treatment was only about 10 months ago - I'm not sure how much technology has improved since then. Also, one of my derms actually works closely with Reliant Technologies and was involved in the creation and development of Fraxel - so I feel pretty confident that I'm on as much of the cutting edge as possible. I'm just not convinced that lasers are where I need them to be just yet.

That, and, no offense meant at all, of course - but the results I got from lasers were spotty, disappointing and possibly harmful for the conditions I was trying to treat. As all the treatments were administered by board certified medical doctors specializing in cosmetic dermatology - there is absolutely no way that I'm going to do a "med-spa" laser treatment by a "trained technician". Lasers are powerful devices and the risks far outweigh the benefits to do otherwise, IMHO.

I'm with Bethany - and will, from now on - until I see long term, substantial and substantiated claims - be in the twigs, berries and rolling pin group! Laughing

Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:12 pm

taobunny wrote:

Quote:

The technology has come along way in the last couple of years and just because the Fraxel didn't work for you certainly doesn't mean the newer crop of lasers won't.

Emmany, I agree with you (to some extent) as I'm sure technology will continue to improve.

However, as my latest Fraxel treatment was only about 10 months ago - I'm not sure how much technology has improved since then. Also, one of my derms actually works closely with Reliant Technologies and was involved in the creation and development of Fraxel - so I feel pretty confident that I'm on as much of the cutting edge as possible. I'm just not convinced that lasers are where I need them to be just yet.

That, and, no offense meant at all, of course - but the results I got from lasers were spotty, disappointing and possibly harmful for the conditions I was trying to treat. As all the treatments were administered by board certified medical doctors specializing in cosmetic dermatology - there is absolutely no way that I'm going to do a "med-spa" laser treatment by a "trained technician". Lasers are powerful devices and the risks far outweigh the benefits to do otherwise, IMHO.

I'm with Bethany - and will, from now on - until I see long term, substantial and substantiated claims - be in the twigs, berries and rolling pin group! Laughing

Your Fraxel treatment may have been only been about 10 months ago, but the Fraxel Re:store (if the laser was used on you 10 months ago it was indefinatley the Fraxel Re:store or the even weaker Re:fine) laser that was used to administer your treatment is already about 2 years behind the curve. Active/Deep Fx, Fraxel Re:pair ect are a new crop of fractional C02 lasers that are getting results in 1 sitting that 10 Fraxel Re:store treatments couldn't achieve.

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