DermaRoller
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free skin care · Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:47 pm

Josee wrote:

...

For this I am going to get a 3.0 mm roller and I'm gonna try the NOTCH cream with it

...

I wonder if piercing through the whole thickness of the skin is better than not piercing it fully. I know in one article using the 1.5, they showed that collagen was deposited only in the superficial dermis, so it might not make a difference... but that was just ONE article...

The only depth you need to achieve is puncturing the dermis so that blood is released and kickstarts the wound healing cascade. I got AWESOME results with a 1.0mm roller, just as I predicted after doing extensive research. More is not always better in this case.

The experts are also migrating away from 3mm needles, in part due to the need to ONLY use them in a complete santitary situation (meaning medical facility).

You also need to be VERY careful when using ANY kind of product after dermarolling...especially if you going to use a 3mm roller. You should also confirm that the NOTCH products are made in a sanitary environment, and I would also ask John about the possible negative ramifications of increasing the penetration of that product so dramatically

I generally no longer read nor post on this thread because I am frankly scared to death by some of the things I see people doing here. But I just had to weigh in on this one...PLEASE proceed with caution.

free skin care · Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:36 am

bethany wrote:

The only depth you need to achieve is puncturing the dermis so that blood is released and kickstarts the wound healing cascade. I got AWESOME results with a 1.0mm roller, just as I predicted after doing extensive research. More is not always better in this case.

The experts are also migrating away from 3mm needles, in part due to the need to ONLY use them in a complete santitary situation (meaning medical facility).

I understand the rationale for the roller for wrinke reduction, but I don't understand how it would work for cellulite with something less than 2.5-3.0mm since celullite is in the hypodermis so I would think that a needle needs to penetrate all the way to the hypodermis to reach the areas that need the work.

For wrinkles I am inclined to use the 1.5mm since although it will probably not go through all the dermis thickness of the whole face (e.g. the nasolabial groove, root of nose, upper and lower lip are usually more than 1.5 mm) in the study by Schwartz (using 1.5 mm), collagen and elastin were deposited only in the upper layer of the dermis so I don't think using a longer needle would make much difference.

bethany wrote:

You also need to be VERY careful when using ANY kind of product after dermarolling...especially if you going to use a 3mm roller. You should also confirm that the NOTCH products are made in a sanitary environment, and I would also ask John about the possible negative ramifications of increasing the penetration of that product so dramatically

Yes, I actually already did the research on the cream compounds Smile

I was hoping John would compound something slightly different for the dermarolling since I don't want the lecithin and I want to be careful with the concentration of parabens.

Thanks for the advice!

free skin care · Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:22 pm

bethany wrote:

I generally no longer read nor post on this thread because I am frankly scared to death by some of the things I see people doing here. But I just had to weigh in on this one...PLEASE proceed with caution.

You know Bethany I've been considering doing some major stocking up on dermarollers for just this reason. There may come a time when we won't be able to buy them anymore due to the damage people will be doing to themselves through misuse.

free skin care · Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:07 pm

Mishey wrote:

bethany wrote:

I generally no longer read nor post on this thread because I am frankly scared to death by some of the things I see people doing here. But I just had to weigh in on this one...PLEASE proceed with caution.

You know Bethany I've been considering doing some major stocking up on dermarollers for just this reason. There may come a time when we won't be able to buy them anymore due to the damage people will be doing to themselves through misuse.

I have already done just that. Rolling Eyes

Someone asked earlier why old timers don't post on this thread anymore...for me it comes down to a few things:
- People not taking the time to understand how this REALLY works, and the damage that they can do to themselves
- People thinking that they know better than the medical experts that do this professionally, and modifying routines dramatically on their own (Now I understand Horst Liebl's frustration with some of the consumers that post on his blog, lol)
- People choosing to listen to knock-off manufacturers and resellers who really don't know what they are talking about and just want to sell rollers. (Last I looked, Kaia's site had a HUGE number of inaccuracies regarding rolling)
- People throwing all common sense out the window, and encouraging others to do the same
- People who blindly follow what other people are doing
- And frankly, I got tired of sharing info that no one listened to. Very Happy

For those that are venturing into unknown territory - Good Luck! I sincerely hope that you don't end up scarred, disfigured or infected in some way over the long term. I also hope that you don't ruin things for the responsible users.

Ok...I'm going back to not visiting this thread anymore. Adios!

Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:35 pm

I posted a few days ago that I received my dermaroller. I've been using the .25 (going to use it 5x a week for product absorption) and today I *finally* busted out the 1.0mm. I used it on my forehead w/ no numbing cream. It didn't hurt, but now my skin BURNS and STINGS like hell!!! Is this normal? Praying it is and that I didn't burn off my forehead! lol

Once I get my EMLA, I will try under my eyes and stretch marks. I started off w/ only the 1.0 because I like to take things slow and I'm worried about how my skin will react.

Wish me luck and Bethany, PLEASE keep posting! I've read a lot of your posts, and you provide valuable information!! So please please don't leave!

free skin care · Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:30 am

bethany wrote:

People thinking that they know better than the medical experts that do this professionally, and modifying routines dramatically on their own (Now I understand Horst Liebl's frustration with some of the consumers that post on his blog, lol)

I just wanted to briefly chime in and, while I do recognize that many people get overly enthusiastic with gadgets and end up abusing their skin, I also think that part of the confusion is that there is no consensus among "medical experts".

Although I definitely respect Mr. Liebl's expertise, he is not a doctor. He is an engineer and many of the things that are stated in his blog (and all over the internet) are mere speculations with no real scientific research to back it up.

I think there ARE a couple of things that can be agreed on:

1) There is no evidence that using a roller often (e.g. 2-3 times per week), no matter how short, is safe.
Even the shortest rollers (0.13 mm) penetrate the dermis, and generate a microinflammatory reaction.
Thus it is uncertain that continued micro-injuries will not have a long-term deleterious consequence.

2) Rollers that penetrate the dermis substantially (1 mm and up) should be used sparingly.

Rollers that penetrate the dermis substantially generate an inflammatory response and start the healing process. This includes laying down a new collagen matrix so that new collagen will be deposited.

The collagen matrix is layed down approximately 5 days post-injury. Thus if you roll often, you will end up disturing the collagen matrix. In addition, rolling often will perpetuate and increase the inflammatory response. These 2 things are bad because:

a. Disrupting the collagen matrix continuously will eventually cause a less-than-optimal laying of the collagen, which can cause scarring and uneven skin

b. Increasing the inflammation process will encourage the deposit of scar collagen

3) Any roller with chances of penetrating the hypodermis (2.0 and up) should be used in a sterile environment

TAKE HOME MESSAGE

Injuring your skin, no matter how little, is NEVER good.

In our quest for a wrinkle-free look, we have to regard injury as a "necessary evil".

This is because so far, skin injury (whether done by needle or thermally) is one of the few procedures that has demonstrated to substantially increase collagen deposition.

However, skin inflammation, if done continuously, will eventually lead to skin stress, and skin aging.

Now rolling frequently may give you a lot of satisfaction, because the skin micro-inflammation "plumps" your skin and makes scars, wrinkles, hyper/hypopigmentation, etc. less visible. But... these effects are not only temporary but also DELETERIOUS in the long-term run! This micro-inflammation that makes you happy today, will cost you greatly in the long run.

So... be patient, roll little, and your skin will thank you in 10 years Smile

For those interested in further reading on wound healing, there's a great book by Rodriguez called "Scarless wound healing". It's rather long but a great reference resource. I took it out at the hospital library so you might want to check there.

free skin care · Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:53 am

Great post Josee, thank you for pulling it all together. I hope to finish the FAQ one of these days soon...I don't blame people who become confused by the information available.

BF

free skin care · Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:50 am

Josee wrote:

I just wanted to briefly chime in and, while I do recognize that many people get overly enthusiastic with gadgets and end up abusing their skin, I also think that part of the confusion is that there is no consensus among "medical experts".

Although I definitely respect Mr. Liebl's expertise, he is not a doctor. He is an engineer and many of the things that are stated in his blog (and all over the internet) are mere speculations with no real scientific research to back it up.

I think there ARE a couple of things that can be agreed on:

1) There is no evidence that using a roller often (e.g. 2-3 times per week), no matter how short, is safe.

I have actually suspected this too, though I'm unaware of any evidence that it causes damage. It would not surprise me, though Neutral

Quote:

Even the shortest rollers (0.13 mm) penetrate the dermis, and generate a microinflammatory reaction.

But it penetrates the epidermis, not the dermis, which is an important disctinction. Also, in the studies I've read (which may be outdated), there was no microinflammation noted at all.

Is there new information that the shorter needles do cause inflammation? I get a LOT of swelling with my 0.25mm, but I always thought I was the expection. Kudos for keeping us up-to-date with new info!

Quote:

Thus it is uncertain that continued micro-injuries will not have a long-term deleterious consequence.

Agreed, we're all guinea pigs, to one degree or other Smile

I have always wished I could roll more often with shorter needles but maybe I'm lucky that I can't.

I agree with everything else except the very last point:

Quote:

Injuring your skin, no matter how little, is NEVER good.

I'm not yet convinced that infrequent, controlled wounding of the epidermis/dermis is harmful, provided it does not destroy the integrity of the skin barrier or disrupt the acid mantle.

You made some excellent points though, and the book sounds pretty interesting. Thanks for passing the info along Smile

free skin care · Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:59 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Quote:

Even the shortest rollers (0.13 mm) penetrate the dermis, and generate a microinflammatory reaction.

But it penetrates the epidermis, not the dermis, which is an important disctinction. Also, in the studies I've read (which may be outdated), there was no microinflammation noted at all.

Yes I read that too on some of the dermaroller information papers written but it's not really in line with basic skin histology.

I think I read...I don't remember where, maybe Horst's website, the assertion of (I'm paraphrasing) "well, it doesn't bleed when you pass it, so this means there's no inflammation
or dermal penetration". This is very inaccurate. Just because you don't see the blood expressing itself outside it doesn't mean that you didn't touch the dermis. First of all, you can touch the dermis and not bleed because you don't hit any capillaries. Secondly, with thin needles gauges (if the dermaroller's needle diameter is 0.25 mm it would mean it's equivalent to a 31.5G) you don't draw blood most of the time, even if you inject into the hypodermis.

Now studies that have measure epidermal thickness have come up with these kinds of measurements:

---------------------
Forehead: 71 ± 7.8 micrometers
(J Dermatol Sci. 2006 Dec;44(3):145-52)
---------------------
Forehead: 88.05 ± 6.46 microm.
Nose: 86.89 ± 7.68 microm.
Cheek: 85.03 ± 8.83 microm.
Chin: 86.77 ± 6.82 microm.
(Dermatology. 2008;217(1):14-20.)
---------------------

So based on these measurements (I'm just pasting 2 articles but there are quite a few), even the shortest roller would penetrate the dermis AND the epidermis.

Even in the Dermaroller website, they say that the epidermis has an average thickness of 0.10-0.12 mm (although they provide no references for this) and their home use rollers have a needle length of 0.15-0.18 mm.

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

I agree with everything else except the very last point:

Quote:

Injuring your skin, no matter how little, is NEVER good.

I'm not yet convinced that infrequent, controlled wounding of the epidermis/dermis is harmful, provided it does not destroy the integrity of the skin barrier or disrupt the acid mantle.

We actually agree on this, that's why I wrote the "necessary evil" sentence. What I meant is that, in principle, injury and the subsequent inflammation is never good. During the inflammation process, while good growth factors, etc. are released, also "harmful" factors are released, and as part of the inflammation cascade, free-radicals are produced. And many other things are produced as part of the stress response.

Hopefully though, with a "controlled" inflammation, we will maximize the influx of growth factors while trying to minimize the harmful substances. And... if we give the skin enough time and treat it nicely Smile

, the free-radicals, etc. will be neutralized and then things will go back to normal and we will (hopefully, again!) reap the benefits of the beneficial substances that were released.

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:40 am

Hi

I am new here, i have just recieved my derma rollers , one is 1.0mm and the other 1.5mm.

I have used the 1.0mm on my face this evening and the 1.5 a little on my stretch marks.

It did hurt on my face though, i have lots of open pores and i am prone to breakouts, my skin was very red afterwards but it has calmed down after 2 hrs.

I didnt use a numbing cream, although i do have emla cream, which i shall be using the next time!!!

what cream shall i use to get the maximum results? shall i use something like cellex c? is it best to put alot of pressure on when using the 1.0mm on the face?

any advice would be greatly appreciated! Very Happy

free skin care · Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:11 pm

Josee wrote:

Secondly, with thin needles gauges (if the dermaroller's needle diameter is 0.25 mm it would mean it's equivalent to a 31.5G) you don't draw blood most of the time, even if you inject into the hypodermis.

I can't speak for all manufacturers, but for Dr Roller brand, and I *think* for the rollers coming from dermaroller.us, the needle guage is 25. I think it was Dr Fernandes who said that 25 guage was thick enough to trigger the wound healing cascade without causing scarring. I do see your point about not always drawing blood, though.

Josee wrote:

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

I agree with everything else except the very last point:

Quote:

Injuring your skin, no matter how little, is NEVER good.

I'm not yet convinced that infrequent, controlled wounding of the epidermis/dermis is harmful, provided it does not destroy the integrity of the skin barrier or disrupt the acid mantle.

We actually agree on this, that's why I wrote the "necessary evil" sentence.

Sorry, I completely missed that! I totally agree with everything else. Thanks for sharing the info Smile

Quote:

What I meant is that, in principle, injury and the subsequent inflammation is never good. During the inflammation process, while good growth factors, etc. are released, also "harmful" factors are released, and as part of the inflammation cascade, free-radicals are produced. And many other things are produced as part of the stress response.

Hopefully though, with a "controlled" inflammation, we will maximize the influx of growth factors while trying to minimize the harmful substances. And... if we give the skin enough time and treat it nicely Smile

, the free-radicals, etc. will be neutralized and then things will go back to normal and we will (hopefully, again!) reap the benefits of the beneficial substances that were released.

free skin care · Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:05 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Josee wrote:

Secondly, with thin needles gauges (if the dermaroller's needle diameter is 0.25 mm it would mean it's equivalent to a 31.5G) you don't draw blood most of the time, even if you inject into the hypodermis.

I can't speak for all manufacturers, but for Dr Roller brand, and I *think* for the rollers coming from dermaroller.us, the needle guage is 25. I think it was Dr Fernandes who said that 25 guage was thick enough to trigger the wound healing cascade without causing scarring. I do see your point about not always drawing blood, though.

Most articles unfortunately don't state needle gauge but if you look at the websites that sell dermarollers and on the internet, there's no roller that has a gauge greater than 0.25mm. I "think" I have all of Dr. Fernandes papers and I went and read them again just in case and I didn't find any saying that the needle diameter was 25G.

He says he used a 15G needle (just one needle not a roller) to treat upper lip wrinkles and that the wrinkles were diminished but hard nodules were formed.

He also says in his 2005 paper (p.56) that the holes left by the roller are 4 cells in diameter. Being generous and assuming a keratinocyte diameter of 40 microm., then the "hole" diameter would be 0.16 mm, which is a lot less than what would be left by a 25G needle (0.5 mm).

I honestly doubt that any roller would have a gauge of 25G because then there is no way you will not end up with scar collagen and the chances of nodules would be very high. A standard insulin needle is 29G.

Here's a link to the cosmectic dermaroller having a diameter of 0.08 mm at maximum penetration point: http://www.dermaroller.de/en/instructions/instructions-5.html

free skin care · Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:23 pm

Josee wrote:

He says he used a 15G needle (just one needle not a roller) to treat upper lip wrinkles and that the wrinkles were diminished but hard nodules were formed.

He also says in his 2005 paper (p.56) that the holes left by the roller are 4 cells in diameter. Being generous and assuming a keratinocyte diameter of 40 microm., then the "hole" diameter would be 0.16 mm, which is a lot less than what would be left by a 25G needle (0.5 mm).

I honestly doubt that any roller would have a gauge of 25G because then there is no way you will not end up with scar collagen and the chances of nodules would be very high. A standard insulin needle is 29G.

Here's a link to the cosmectic dermaroller having a diameter of 0.08 mm at maximum penetration point: http://www.dermaroller.de/en/instructions/instructions-5.html

thank you for posting this.
i self-needled many years ago and developed the nodules as well, which i had biopsied and turned out to be calcifications. i have been hesitant to roll due to this so it's very interesting to see that it is indeed somewhat common in others as well.

free skin care · Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:00 am

I just jumped on this bandwagon!! I bought the 1.0mm cause I'm just tooo chicken to try anything longer. I just got the 1.0mm in the mail, gonna use it for cellulite, not too sure about wanting to roll on my face. I'm scared... those needles are HUGE!!

My Retin-A hasn't arrived yet, you think it'd be okay if I just roll without putting anything? I could put SAS DMAE serum right?

free skin care · Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:19 am

I find the Dr Rollers much more painful than the "knockoff" rollers so I've avoided doing it for about 6 months (yes, I'm a wuss)! Confused

I'm also a bit nervous about overdoing the Emla; this time I used half my 5ml tube on my face and put clingfilm on (are you supposed to put holes in it? I wasn't sure if it was wise to let myself cook underneath so poked holes in for my nostrils/eyes).

Perhaps that affected its effectiveness as I felt numb, but still ouchie, after an hour of Emla (I used a 3-line and ordinary 1.5mm Dr Rollers). Only did two directions as it wore off quite quickly Sad

Does anyone have specific directions for using Emla? Ie, how much to use, length of time to use clingfilm, how long it will last after wiping off.

free skin care · Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:19 am

<<However, skin inflammation, if done continuously, will eventually lead to skin stress, and skin aging.

I've wondered about this as it relates to the use of retinoids. I have used retinoids of various strengths and versions for the past 3 years. I still peel and sometimes get redness from using them. When you consider the benefits of long term retinoid use - there has to be some cross over point (but we don't know where that is?) where the inflammation damage from their use is superceded by the gains created from increased collagen production, etc.

This is the mystery for me.

BF

free skin care · Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:28 am

I had a similar experience with Emla.

I roll my face in sections. I work the skin in sections - vertical, horizontal, diagonal, etc. The first pass I never feel a thing. The second pass I only feel a slight discomfort - but by the third pass I feel as if there is no numbing left at all Sad

-- and this happens very quickly - within a few minutes!

I will have to search back through my old messages - there is supposed to be a good alternative to Emla and I posted about it awhile ago.

Also, do any of you ever get over the creepiness of the skin popping? That always weirds me out!

BF

free skin care · Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:06 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

I've wondered about this as it relates to the use of retinoids. I have used retinoids of various strengths and versions for the past 3 years. I still peel and sometimes get redness from using them. When you consider the benefits of long term retinoid use - there has to be some cross over point (but we don't know where that is?) where the inflammation damage from their use is superceded by the gains created from increased collagen production, etc.

This is the mystery for me.

BF

I think there are many issues to be considered, most of which I don't know Smile

Biopsies of subjects exposed to tretinoin did not show chronic inflammation changes.
Why is that? It must have to do with the mechanism of action of tretinoin (which I'm too lazy to read).

Also peeling does not equate with inflammation necessarily. So you can have the same degree of peeling but with different degrees of inflammation depending on "what made you peel". And you can also have inflammation without peeling.

The dermatologists I know who prescribe tretinoin (or other retinoids) for anti-aging actually start with very low doses and then grow slowly to actually try to avoid inflammation as much as possible and will tell you to cut back if it's causing irritation.

Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:59 am

I rolled my face with the 1mm and the next day it is a bit red and pretty bumpy looking. Is this normal? I'm scared it might be a negative reaction...please help, thanks.

free skin care · Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:25 am

Hi Wald - redness & bumpiness is normal but temporary, don't worry!

Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:28 pm

thank you so much for replying - really appreciate it. Do you know how many days it will take for the bumpiness to go away? And is there anything I could do to reduce the bumps? Thanks

free skin care · Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:48 pm

Wald - I suppose it would depend on your sensitivity. My skin is quite sensitive but is back to normal within a couple of days.

free skin care · Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:57 pm

Are there any risks associated with using some of the topical anesthetics mentioned on this thread and dermarolling? Can you use too much of the anesthetics and have adverse reactions?

free skin care · Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:09 pm

You can have an adverse reaction to an anesthetic. You should always spot test to make sure your skin does not develop a reaction and always follow the instructions carefully.

free skin care · Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:11 pm

its not recommended to put vit c after rolling?

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