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Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:40 am  |
| Thy, I read somewhere (sorry not sure at the moment) that you need to do both, ingest the C, as well as apply topically. I will try to find where I read that at! |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:09 pm |
| im curious about Vitamin C. I was just reading The New Science Of Perfect Skin written by Daniel Yarosh, and he said long term use of Vitamin C topically actually damages elastin... |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:39 pm |
Thanks alot. I always thought Vit C was only meant to be used on the face. I have no problem finding Vit C but its expensive and you only get a small amount at that. Imagine how much I would spend using this once a day even, on my tummy and thighs. I need to find a substitute for Vit C 
Maybe I can buy some L ascorbic acid and mix it in my Revitol  |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:48 pm |
| Thy, check the DIY forum. I think there are probably recipes on there for making your own. It would probably be cheaper that way! |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:55 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Thy, check the DIY forum. I think there are probably recipes on there for making your own. It would probably be cheaper that way! |
it might be because I saw pounds of it on ebay for only $21. I think the recipe is that with distilled water and glycerine. All cheap products. I found a recipe fot Vit A Serum. 3 ingredients. Cant go wrong with that  |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:01 pm |
| Ok so I did my first rolling after my shower. OUCH. I have the 1.5 and it didnt hurt that bad but it hurt a little bit. It was a ticklish/pain feeling so I tried to laugh my way through it. My obliques were more sensitve then my mid stomach but it took me about 3 mins to finish the whole thing. I tried to apply some pressure. Then I applied my Revitol. I think I will do my thighs tomorrow. Thats enough for tonight. How long should I soak my roller for? I have it in some Hydrogen Peroxide right now |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:03 pm |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| Ok so I did my first rolling after my shower. OUCH. I have the 1.5 and it didnt hurt that bad but it hurt a little bit. It was a ticklish/pain feeling so I tried to laugh my way through it. My obliques were more sensitve then my mid stomach but it took me about 3 mins to finish the whole thing. I tried to apply some pressure. Then I applied my Revitol. I think I will do my thighs tomorrow. Thats enough for tonight. How long should I soak my roller for? I have it in some Hydrogen Peroxide right now |
Never more than 30 mins or it could break down the bonding. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:16 pm |
Just an FYI regarding roller replacement...this is Dr. Leibl's perspective on one time usage vs. multiple uses.
My take away is that I probably will not use a longer needle roller more than 6 times, meaning I will chuck it after after completing a series of 6 rolls. And I will definitely continue disinfecting before AND after a roll.
| Quote: |
Dear Dr. Liebl,
Congratulations on the new website and this wonderful blog. It is very informative and a great help to patients like me who have been struggling for years because of acne scars.
I have been a follower of your old website, carefully reading about articles on this procedure dermarolling.
This is a relatively new procedure in the Philippines and I am quite happy to know that many clinics are now offering it. I am fully aware (thru information from the old website) that your medical rollers are for one patient and SINGLE use only. However, my dermatologist insisted that it can be used up to six times (She is using the MF8, 1.5mm). Is is me, or is my understanding of english is poor, as label of the container says that it is a SINGLE USE, DISPOSABLE INSTRUMENT. Please shed us light on this issue.
Janice |
| Quote: |
Dear Janice,
Thank you forwarding this interesting issue on SINGLE USE.
Aside from the Home Care Dermaroller with needle length of only 0.15 mm, ALL medical Dermaroller models such as MF8, CIT and MS4 (needle length ranging from 0.5 to 1.5 mm) for scar treatment, skin rejuvenation etc. are SINGLE USE, DISPOSABLE, gamma sterilized medical devices class IIa, according to European directive 93/42 EEU.
The reasons for this classification is easy to understand:
• Needles longer than 0.2 mm penetrate into the dermis, and such a penetration is called invasive.
• Any instrument, even an injection needle that penetrates the skin, MUST be sterile.
• For economic reasons we manufacture the Dermaroller from plastic parts with incorporated steel needles. All parts are glued by a medical approved bonding. (We also could make the Dermaroller from metal, but this would result in an extreme high price).
• Before delivery the Dermaroller is sealed in a bag, packed in a carton and gamma sterilized, the best and most efficient way of sterilization. (For environmental and health reasons ethylene oxide gas sterilization is widely banned in Europe).
• Due to its structure the Dermaroller CANNOT be re-sterilized in an autoclave, may it be steam or hot air.
Even though we would use plastic parts (poly amid, etc.) that can stand heat above 200° C, the heat will always affect the needles, because any metal, also stainless steel, changes its molecular structure when exposed to temperatures above 100°C. The needle tip is the most difficult part to tool. And the extreme thin tip is the first part that will change its structure when exposed to high temperatures. In simple words: it will get blunt. You may not see it with the bare eye, but you definitely will feel it. Blunt or badly tooled needles (like these of all copies) result in high penetration forces, and these high penetration forces result in skin damage.
Make your own experiment with almost no cost: Put a new razor blade into an autoclave. You can bet it will never shave a hair again!
We cannot force a physician NOT to re-use a Dermaroller for a second or third treatment – hopefully on the same patient. Some of them store and soak the needling device in disinfectants or simple alcohol. This is NO safe end efficient method for sterilization! It only disinfects the device! And here we face another problem: Most of these disinfectants will, or at least, can affect the needles bonding and damage the instrument.
A physician bears responsibility for what he/she is doing, and I am sure most of them will follow the rules set out by the manufacturer. Why to take a risk where is not necessity?
And another good and most important reason NOT to re-use a medical Dermaroller that was used on scars or acne scars. The fibrotic scar tissue can be so hard that the fine needle tips are subject to extreme wear. The following treatments with this used instrument will result is poor results, high penetration forces and pain. Why should anyone take such a risk? And why to accept poorer results with a used instrument?
A price for a treatment may differ from country to country and it depends where you live. But keep in mind: in general only 2 to 4 treatments are required to fight even the worst acne scars and have them improved by at least 70 to 80% permanently (provided the procedure is done the right way and new instruments are used). Usually physicians sell a “treatment” and that includes the device, and here I mean a NEW one.
We know that the Dermaroller is a perfect instrument for an effective treatment, and that is the reason why it was copied to often. But always keep one important point in mind: Copiers never invest in science, they only copy (devices and pictures) but do not understand the philosophy behind an instrument. They use cheap materials for a quick Dollar, and the customer is the cheatee.
Of course a copier will always recommend the reuse of his falsification many times. And why? Their needles are of such a poor quality that it does not matter if they are used once or if they are re-sterilized. Dull is dull and will stay dull.
Best regards
Horst Liebl
http://dermaroller.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/single-use-instrument/#comments
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:55 pm |
This is from a Bangkok paper. The key takeaway...disinfection is critical!!
| Quote: |
BEAUTY CLINICS
FDA warns about facial treatments
Published on March 2, 2008
Two techniques with illegal devices not approved for safety reasons
Want to have a baby face again? Planning a visit to a beauty clinic to have those wrinkles lifted? Make sure the treatments you are offered are not called "stem cell roller" or "derma roller", two techniques that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has not yet approved due to safety reasons.
The FDA yesterday called a hurried press conference after it found on Friday that some branches of two popular beauty clinics - Nitiphon Clinic and Vuthi-Sak Clinic - have offered their customers such treatments. Dr Niphon Phopat-tanachai, deputy secretary of the FDA, yesterday said the treatments required specific medical devices that the FDA had not yet allowed to be imported as their qualifications are still doubtful.
While the two beauty clinics advertised the techniques as wrinkle removals that boost collagen to create clear, "baby faces", Niphon said the stem cell roller and derma roller techniques could cause dermatitis and infection on facial skin. As the main devices used in such treatments are rollers equipped with needles that clinicians roll around a customer's face, the clinics require a high level of hygiene in both use of the rollers and subsequent cleaning. Niphon was afraid that if clinicians were not aware and hygienic enough, the treatments could spread infectious diseases.
The FDA together with the Department of Health Service Support, which oversees private hospitals and clinics, on Friday raided Nitiphon clinics at Victory Monument and Big C Lat Phrao as well as Vuthi-Sak Clinic's Siam Square and Seacon Square branches after learning that the clinics had posted advertisements about the two treatments on the Internet.
Dr Noppadol Noppakhun, president of the Dermatological Society of Thailand, said there had been no research on the effectiveness and adverse impacts of the two treatments. Even the United States FDA has not yet certified the safety of the treatments, said Noppadol. He said he was informed that the Medical Council of Thailand had received several complaints from customers who received adverse effects from the two treatments.
Noppadol said he had alerted dermatologists who are members of the association across country not to use these medical devices on patients. He said the association would ask the medical council to consider whether or not the use of these devices was in violation of professional medical standards. If found in violation, users would be punished according to the 2007 medical device control laws.
Niphon said the clinic owners and the importers of these devices had violated the Public Health Ministry's ministerial regulations of 2006. Under the law, importers could be fined a maximum of Bt250,000 or five-years' imprisonment or both, and clinic owners could be fined a maximum of Bt20,000 and jailed for six months for falsely advertising the benefits of the medical devices.
The owners of the two beauty clinics could not be reached for comment yesterday. A staff member at Nitiphon Clinic said he was not informed by the FDA about the case. "Our operation always abides by the law and FDA regulations," he said.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/03/02/headlines/headlines_30066981.php
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:14 pm |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| Ok so I did my first rolling after my shower. OUCH. I have the 1.5 and it didnt hurt that bad but it hurt a little bit. It was a ticklish/pain feeling so I tried to laugh my way through it. My obliques were more sensitve then my mid stomach but it took me about 3 mins to finish the whole thing. I tried to apply some pressure. Then I applied my Revitol. I think I will do my thighs tomorrow. Thats enough for tonight. How long should I soak my roller for? I have it in some Hydrogen Peroxide right now |
Try rolling IN the shower. Turn the water up quite hot, and have the water running on the part you are rolling. Really works for me!!!
rebecca |
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47 years old. Battling aging and pigmentation. Using Tria and Pico and Dermapen. |
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:18 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| This is from a Bangkok paper. The key takeaway...disinfection is critical!! |
I have rolled maybe 50 or more times (face and body) and have only ever cleaned my roller with very hot tap water, which is what the manufacturer advised. Never had a problem.
cheers
rebecca |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:59 am |
| Snowqueen how many rollers have you gone through with 50 uses? |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:23 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| Ok so I did my first rolling after my shower. OUCH. I have the 1.5 and it didnt hurt that bad but it hurt a little bit. It was a ticklish/pain feeling so I tried to laugh my way through it. My obliques were more sensitve then my mid stomach but it took me about 3 mins to finish the whole thing. I tried to apply some pressure. Then I applied my Revitol. I think I will do my thighs tomorrow. Thats enough for tonight. How long should I soak my roller for? I have it in some Hydrogen Peroxide right now |
Never more than 30 mins or it could break down the bonding. |
I know not to roll that long It took me maybe 3-4 mins for my stomach. Should I have done it longer?? and repeated it a couple of times. I did it by sections rolling in different directions |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:56 pm |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| Ok so I did my first rolling after my shower. OUCH. I have the 1.5 and it didnt hurt that bad but it hurt a little bit. It was a ticklish/pain feeling so I tried to laugh my way through it. My obliques were more sensitve then my mid stomach but it took me about 3 mins to finish the whole thing. I tried to apply some pressure. Then I applied my Revitol. I think I will do my thighs tomorrow. Thats enough for tonight. How long should I soak my roller for? I have it in some Hydrogen Peroxide right now |
Never more than 30 mins or it could break down the bonding. |
I know not to roll that long It took me maybe 3-4 mins for my stomach. Should I have done it longer?? and repeated it a couple of times. I did it by sections rolling in different directions |
LOl...you asked how long to soak your roller...not how long to roll! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:07 pm |
| ^^^^^^ Oops |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:08 pm |
snowqueen - I'd like to know how long your rollers last too, if you've done 50 rolls so far. How long of an interval between rolls do you do?
bethany - thanks for the tidbit on the single use info. I will probably use mine just 6 times, after reading that. Just need to get the .15 now. Do you think you need to rinse the roller off after each pass? I didn't do that the first few passes, but when I saw a little blood, I started to. Will definitely be sterilizing in some alcohol (and sanitizing my face w/ tea tree oil).
TC - you must check to DIY threads on vit C. I've heard that you can mix it up daily and always have a fresh supply (it doesn't last long otherwise)
nate- does Daniel Yarosh site some references for his claim of long-term topical Vit C damaging elastin? That's one I haven't heard B4. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:27 pm |
| foxe wrote: |
| bethany - thanks for the tidbit on the single use info. I will probably use mine just 6 times, after reading that. Just need to get the .15 now. Do you think you need to rinse the roller off after each pass? I didn't do that the first few passes, but when I saw a little blood, I started to. Will definitely be sterilizing in some alcohol (and sanitizing my face w/ tea tree oil). |
I don't rinse the roller with each pass...that would take too long and my numbness would fade!
But I do wipe my face before and after I roll each section with Bactine, and wash my face well (and for quite a while) after a roll.
Then I clean the roller for 30 mins with a denture cleansing tablet because it breaks down any residual enzymes on the roller. I also spray the roller with Bactine before I use it, and rinse it again.
Sheesh...this rolling is a lot of work! I am REALLY enjoying my break from all of that! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:30 pm |
| foxe wrote: |
snowqueen - I'd like to know how long your rollers last too, if you've done 50 rolls so far. How long of an interval between rolls do you do?
bethany - thanks for the tidbit on the single use info. I will probably use mine just 6 times, after reading that. Just need to get the .15 now. Do you think you need to rinse the roller off after each pass? I didn't do that the first few passes, but when I saw a little blood, I started to. Will definitely be sterilizing in some alcohol (and sanitizing my face w/ tea tree oil).
TC - you must check to DIY threads on vit C. I've heard that you can mix it up daily and always have a fresh supply (it doesn't last long otherwise)
nate- does Daniel Yarosh site some references for his claim of long-term topical Vit C damaging elastin? That's one I haven't heard B4. |
Foxe,
I rinse my rollers in hot water not after every pass however as soon as it becomes cool on my skin. I read on this forum somewhere that it helps product penetration after the roll. I've also found that I am less sensitive with the roller warmed up a bit  |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:38 pm |
| batwhirl wrote: |
| I rinse my rollers in hot water not after every pass however as soon as it becomes cool on my skin. I read on this forum somewhere that it helps product penetration after the roll. I've also found that I am less sensitive with the roller warmed up a bit |
That is very true...Rita at ProLight shared that tip.
Speaking of penetration...NO, not THAT penetration!   Ok....back to business...I read a study last night on product penetration when using various lengths of needles, as well as when the product is applied before or after rolling.
Interesting stuff...I'll post some tidbits from the study results later tonight. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:02 pm |
| My skin on my tummy is a lil itchy and sore. Is it supposed to be this way? And some areas I see small bumps |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:53 pm |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| My skin on my tummy is a lil itchy and sore. Is it supposed to be this way? And some areas I see small bumps |
The tenderness is not uncommon. The itching is usually a sign of healing, unless it is accompanied by the histimine bumps which signify that your skin is reacting negatively (most likely to a topical).
You may need to apply the Revitol the next morning, instead of right after you roll....it just depends on how you react.  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:58 pm |
| catballou wrote: |
I just bought 2 Dermarollers, a 1.5 and a .50 on Amazon.com (thinking I might want different lengths for different areas of my face, hands and arms), and I've been reading about numbing creams. There are tons of online warnings from the FDA that numbing creams have been linked with coma and deaths. I haven't used the rollers yet, still trying to educate myself on how to do it. What do you think about using ice? Obviously it would tighten the skin and close the pores. How does that affect the puncturing process?
I read in one of the links posted in this thread that you need to use a pressure of no more than 500 grams, and I practiced a little on my digital food scales.
Any insights to get me going will be much appreciated. I'm excited about this, and I'm not squeamish, just careful. |
Cat, caution is a good thing when you are about to become a human pin cushion.
Let us know if you have any specific questions...all this info can be certainly be overwhelming.
I would encourage you to read up on the process...there are a number of articles in the thread below, including how to actually do a roll.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860 |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:29 pm |
| Hurry, Bethany. I want the penetration tips! (meaning the roller kind!) |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:08 pm |
| Mishey wrote: |
| Snowqueen how many rollers have you gone through with 50 uses? |
I have used 3 rollers thus far. I have one that I have only used on my body areas...it still doesn't seem blunt... Have used 2 for my face, and I need another one now.
Please note I was counting body areas and face as seperate rolls. I would have done about 20 face rolls. I roll weekly. But I roll fairly non aggressively. As I have seen good results, I have decided to stick with this.
cheers
rebecca |
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47 years old. Battling aging and pigmentation. Using Tria and Pico and Dermapen. |
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