DermaRoller
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free skin care · Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:45 pm

crzyakta wrote:

Hey Bethany, I have done my first roll about 2.5 weeks ago...it went well and I documented it all at the other site

Good for you!! The only things I would recommend doing differently are:
1) Try to get more holes punctured each time you roll by using the star pattern...the more holes the better in order to kick start the wound healing cascade.
2) It is really better to jump in the shower and flush out the needle holes as soon as possible.

crzyakta wrote:

I see you mention caution behind rolling too frequently...do you think that 0.25mm weekly is okay for topicals? I still do get red however and its a bit swollen for like 1 day after the roll...thoughts on that?

I had the same reaction to the .25mm (and the .15mm baby roller as well). I personally think that is way too much ongoing inflammation, and you would be far better off with a 2mhz ultrasound.

crzyakta wrote:

Also I am treating some forehead wrinkles with 0.5mm (just testing it, actually bought it for scalp rolling) weekly, do you think that is okay?

Thanks!

PS any thoughts on Green Cream as a vit A cream choice?

Forehead wrinkles showed the least amount of improvement for me after rolling 9 months. Sad

At your age, I would suggest starting facial exercise...that will make more of a lasting difference over time, and keep any lines from becoming permanently entrenched (like mine, sigh).

As far as Green Cream is concerned, I have heard very good things about it. However, I would be hesitant to use it right after rolling...stronger is not always better after you have just poked a bunch of holes in your face!

free skin care · Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:18 pm

I've read everything Bethany's posted on this subject and scoured the internet for anything else I could possibly find. I happen to think that there's some wiggle room on your rolling protocol depending on what and where you're rolling.

For example, I'm not extremely concerned with increased inflammation possibly aging my abdomen. However, I would never roll my face with any regular frequency.

While I completely agree that skin can and will only remodel so quickly, there's some documentation on this board from members who are treating stretchmarks and have been rolling more frequently. I tend to assume that those who are rolling quite frequently aren't using the kind of pressure that Bethany used, though I have no idea why I assume this.

So, based on all of these conflicting protocols, I've decided to experiment and see what happens by changing only the frequency and pressure with the standard topicals remaining the same. I suppose that if one side of my abdomen starts to look like it belongs to an elderly woman (if it's the side of the frequent rolls), I can promptly blame my rolling schedule. Hell, it's not as if my abdomen could look any worse!

In some ways, I think of this a little like those who adapt Ageless or FE to fit their needs and experiment to find what works. Yes, you can have some serious damage from dermarolling as we saw with chinachatters, but in my case, I'm using it on an area that cannot possibly get worse and never sees the light of day as it is. After all, every new treatment starts as an experiment. But again, I would never in a 100 years experiment like this on my face. Yikes.

free skin care · Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:56 pm

P Girl wrote:

But again, I would never in a 100 years experiment like this on my face. Yikes.

Trust me....people have done some pretty crazy things to their face with dermarollers and various topicals!

But you are correct...there is definitely more leeway on your stomach. However, just make sure that you don't confuse deeper micro-inflammation with results at this point.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:15 am

A tip with the emla. I unwrap a portion at a time, clean it up and then roll it, while leaving all other wrap intact. This way it keeps the emla from wearing off before you finish the face.
Just to let you all know I'm rolling every 6 to 8 weeks.
Good luck with your rolls everyone.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:08 am

After reading everyone's routines, I decided to follow the conservative approach to rolling.

I am rolling once every 4 weeks, and making sure the oozing has dried up before adding any topicals that might interfere with the healing process.

I am combining my rolling with Ageless facial exercises, and am very happy with the results so far.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:38 am

P Girl wrote:

I finally managed to wade through the info. about those two supplements. I found something on the Thio. one--about making it into a paste. Definitely all very interesting and I'm going to mull it over and decide whether I want to add more supps to my routine. I just can't imagine if anyone were to ask "hey, what'd you do to get rid of your stretchmarks?" and then I'd have to bust out a novel with a powerpoint presentation!

yea that's why i stopped posting on that thread,plus no1 ever responded to me except once & it was very rude.i will post if anything i find works because that's only fair.I'm not a fan of drama.

that's why i love this site everyone's so nice & helpful.

at one time they were talking about Acell, some guy said he mixed Acell (i think its a powder) with Emu oil & it cured his stretchmarks.i dont believe Everything i read but i do get a twinge of hope.i have talked to the guy Mike several times but he only said that it is available to the public but only through a Dr and he wouldn't tell me the price because Dr's need to make their profit. he said any Dr can obtain it.i forgot to ask my derm Dr ill see him again march 30th.if its not too much ill get some.

here's the website
www.acell.com

i think it may still say not available for human use but i emailed the company and they said it was.

all this reading about lotions & creams & pills makes my head hurt lol,i don't see how bethany does it (though i'm very glad she does)

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:42 am

Does anyone know where to get a cheaper 2mm or 2.5mm or even a 3mm Dr roller,i don't have the 100 to pay jack.
ive heard a lot of bad things from other places such as ebay with bent kneedles,so if anyones ordered a cheaper one and hasn't had any problems let me know.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:38 am

kaia at dr-roller.eu

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:54 am

bciw wrote:

kaia at dr-roller.eu

yea but she doesn't sell anything above a 1.5mm. i even emailed her & asked & she said they weren't even considering getting longer needles.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:56 pm

I think there aren't any cheaper if quality is concerned

Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:09 pm

ace243 wrote:

Does anyone know where to get a cheaper 2mm or 2.5mm or even a 3mm Dr roller,i don't have the 100 to pay jack.
ive heard a lot of bad things from other places such as ebay with bent kneedles,so if anyones ordered a cheaper one and hasn't had any problems let me know.

Have you tried Amazon.com? I bought the derma rolling kit from there, and was very happy. Came with numbing cream, peptide C cream and other goodies.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:30 pm

dermarollers.us is cheaper than kaia i think! is Dr. rollers made in Korea?

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:33 pm

bethany wrote:

Has everyone read all the articles from the professionals on dermarolling?

There is a lot to be learned about rolling frequency and required topicals. I don't mean to blow my own horn here, but my dermarolling results were nothing short of spectacular... I rolled far less than most people AND used only the recommended topicals. Less really can be more, especially in this case.

Please make sure that you are appropriately educated....rolling too frequently results in ongoing inflammation which ultimately ages your skin even faster. I no longer recommend that anyone roll more frequently than every 2 weeks at the most, and every 4-6 weeks really is a much better choice. Your skin can only remodel so quickly.

CIT/Dermarolling Articles and Presentations
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860&highlight=cit

i agree - the best results come from a very informed roll(er).
Just did my second roll 1 week ago - 5 weeks (plus 1 day) good roll - so much less visually traumatic - possibly even anticlimactic! Skin looks good - maybe still a bit of post inflam...

Girls who are using the 2.0 2.5 3.0 - is that for your bodies? I cannot imagine using a needle that long on my face - from what i've read, this can cause some serious damage (nerve/scarring) - yikes!~

crzyakta - I've been on some boards where people caution and even rail against GC because of it's (non active)ingredients (HOW does it get green anyway?? i don't think it's CP's!) so do be careful post roll - maybe wait 1/2 hr.

m

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:37 pm

ace243 wrote:

i even emailed her & asked & she said they weren't even considering getting longer needles.

I'm curious about the reason behind it. perhaps u can made a better informed decision on whether or not is worth getting the longer ones.

Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:35 pm

bethany, thanks for the shower tip...also my scarring is small boxscars and ice picks...no rolling or depressed scar regions etc

So will more holes, or deeper holes in the right areas be more effective for my type of scarring?

Also what are your thoughts on 2.0mm rollers, because some of the scars a deep, and the roller may only get 0.75-1.0mm into them

hey moongoddess, I have been a bit concerned about the other GC ingredients as well, such as ethanol being the second listed ingredient, and the parabens...have you heard anything else of them?

I need a 2-3 times-a-week Vitamin A cream/serum to really move things along....302's A Boost was really clogging my pores so I had to give it up (though I really wanted to stay on it, and tried using it exactly the way the directions state...either way, not a good reaction from my skin)

Thanks all Smile

Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:23 pm

Hello all!!

I have just done my first roll with a 1.5mm but feel that I am not rolling as hard as I could since I have not been able to find a numbing cream safe in pregnancy. I went to the pharmacy and they would not recommend anything. I have tried ice but does not work well. I read that someone in the forum used orajel for numbing. I was wondering if anyone else found Orajel to be successful for numbing or has any other pregnancy safe numbing creams.

Furthermore, in regards to topicals I have been using a variety of essential oils, carrier oils, vitamin C Serum, pure vitamin E and since I am not allowed Retin A in pregnancy I have been using rosehip Seed Oil as a substitute (Rosehip has some A in it). Just wondering if anyone has an idea of what other products or essential oils that can help me get the vitamin A that I need safely.

Thanks for reading!
Miki

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:08 pm

crzyakta wrote:

bethany, thanks for the shower tip...also my scarring is small boxscars and ice picks...no rolling or depressed scar regions etc

So will more holes, or deeper holes in the right areas be more effective for my type of scarring?

Also what are your thoughts on 2.0mm rollers, because some of the scars a deep, and the roller may only get 0.75-1.0mm into them

More holes are better for better for release of the blood and various enzymes that kickstart the wound healing cascade...that applies regardless of the issue you are trying to correct.

The Dr. Roller model is going to penetrate deeper than other rollers due to the cross-linked needle pattern. I would personally stick to the 1.5mm (6 times max for sharpness), and then take a break for a couple of months. You may not need a 2.0mm roller after that.

If the A Boost is clogging your pores, cut back the usage frequency...no more than 2-3x a week, max.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:10 pm

vivre wrote:

Hello all!!

I have just done my first roll with a 1.5mm but feel that I am not rolling as hard as I could since I have not been able to find a numbing cream safe in pregnancy. I went to the pharmacy and they would not recommend anything. I have tried ice but does not work well. I read that someone in the forum used orajel for numbing. I was wondering if anyone else found Orajel to be successful for numbing or has any other pregnancy safe numbing creams.

Avocado oil is high in Vit A.

No one has had success with Orajel that I am aware of, unfortunately. And other than ice, there is nothing else appropriate for during pregnancy.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:14 pm

crzyakta wrote:

bethany, thanks for the shower tip...also my scarring is small boxscars and ice picks...no rolling or depressed scar regions etc

So will more holes, or deeper holes in the right areas be more effective for my type of scarring?

Also what are your thoughts on 2.0mm rollers, because some of the scars a deep, and the roller may only get 0.75-1.0mm into them

hey moongoddess, I have been a bit concerned about the other GC ingredients as well, such as ethanol being the second listed ingredient, and the parabens...have you heard anything else of them?

I need a 2-3 times-a-week Vitamin A cream/serum to really move things along....302's A Boost was really clogging my pores so I had to give it up (though I really wanted to stay on it, and tried using it exactly the way the directions state...either way, not a good reaction from my skin)

Thanks all Smile

hi crzyakta

cannot remember the specifics about GC - it was 2 years ago when i was using and reading up...and hey, i liked the stuff, so i sort of put my hands over my ears -not using anymore - it really didn't do too much for me in the end...too bad u cannot use the 302 A

here's a little something i found from Dermaroller.de - don't know what Bethany thinks of him, but she has conversed w/ him on his blog so maybe she'll comment. i realize he doesn't mention a 2.0, but i have heard over and over that the healing takes place at 1.5 anything over that is over-kill. To confuse matters if people follow Bethany's link above, one of the first articles is about 3.0 rolling and how effective it is( i realize this is not u crzyakta) HOWEVER it is considered a medical treatment w/ alot of bruisng and 5-8 days down time and you would want to be seriously numbed...BUT, Dr. F says you can achieve the same results over a longer period w/ minimal downtime w/ a smaller needle. anyway, for what it's worth...from the dermaroller.de webpage

Human dermis has an average thickness of 1.5 mm and new collagen forms only in the upper corium, about 0.5 mm below the epidermis. So why in this world to use 2.5 mm or even longer needles only to puncture the muscles underneath the skin? – it simply makes no sense. I only can assume all copiers must be men (mostly from Asia where all copies come from), and most of their funny thinking is: the longer, the better! But sensible needling has nothing to do with oversized needles, it is a matter of intelligence, and I am afraid, this is only given to a few in this world – at least in respect of microneedling.
Your last point: Home treatment with 2.5 mm long needles. If you like pain – do it! If you think, you are your own physician – do it! If you want to damage your skin and risk possible infections and permanent disfigurement – do it! If you are intelligent – go to a physician that is familiar with the real Collagen-Induction-Therapy (CIT).

Thank you for your attention and best regards
Horst Liebl

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:32 pm

usually strong numbing creams are often contraindicated in that case, so
if i were u i'd not roll during pregnancy.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:34 pm

ace243 wrote:

all this reading about lotions & creams & pills makes my head hurt lol,i don't see how bethany does it (though i'm very glad she does)

I think I'm just a glutton for punishment, lol. Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:51 pm

moongoddess wrote:

here's a little something i found from Dermaroller.de - don't know what Bethany thinks of him, but she has conversed w/ him on his blog so maybe she'll comment. i realize he doesn't mention a 2.0, but i have heard over and over that the healing takes place at 1.5 anything over that is over-kill. To confuse matters if people follow Bethany's link above, one of the first articles is about 3.0 rolling and how effective it is( i realize this is not u crzyakta) HOWEVER it is considered a medical treatment w/ alot of bruisng and 5-8 days down time and you would want to be seriously numbed...BUT, Dr. F says you can achieve the same results over a longer period w/ minimal downtime w/ a smaller needle. anyway, for what it's worth...from the dermaroller.de webpage

Human dermis has an average thickness of 1.5 mm and new collagen forms only in the upper corium, about 0.5 mm below the epidermis. So why in this world to use 2.5 mm or even longer needles only to puncture the muscles underneath the skin? – it simply makes no sense. I only can assume all copiers must be men (mostly from Asia where all copies come from), and most of their funny thinking is: the longer, the better! But [b]sensible needling has nothing to do with oversized needles, it is a matter of intelligence, and I am afraid, this is only given to a few in this world – at least in respect of microneedling.
Your last point: Home treatment with 2.5 mm long needles. If you like pain – do it! If you think, you are your own physician – do it! If you want to damage your skin and risk possible infections and permanent disfigurement – do it! If you are intelligent – go to a physician that is familiar with the real Collagen-Induction-Therapy (CIT).

Thank you for your attention and best regards
Horst Liebl[/b]

Horst Liebl definitely knows his stuff. And much of his concern focuses on the infection risk with longer needles...this is a very big deal, and most people do not take it seriously enough (regardless of needle length)

The only real need for the needles longer than 1.0mm or 1.5mm is in the case of breaking up scar tissue. In some cases a 2.0mm is warranted, but a 3.0mm roll is a medical roll requiring complete sedation and should be done in a sterile location.

As more articles became published on the topic of rolling and the 2 inventors conducted more tests, you can clearly see that they are moving away from the 3.0mm needles and using no more than 2.0mm for scar reduction. Horst Liebl's new DermaStamp with 2.0mm needles is a great illustration of very positive results. But unless you have deep scars, a 1.0mm or 1.5mm should be more than sufficient.

And based on my learnings here on EDS, people don't really penetrate fully with the shorter needles anyway....they can buy longer ones if it makes them feel better, but I am very sure that the majority will not be penetrating any deeper than they did with the shorter needles just because of the pain involved.

I achieved great results with a 1.0mm roller, but I was rolling very intensely and deeply and my face was proof of that for the next week. Just something to consider before you go for the long needles (which get dull faster too, btw).

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:56 pm

so did anyone find out about the loose skin and stretch marks? I just started derma rolling with the 1.0. I've been using it for 3 weeks now and not seeing any improvement. am i doing something wrong? am i missing a step? someone posted that you should draw blood when you are rolling. but other ppl say you shouldn't. help me out here. plz

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:17 pm

calorblind wrote:

dermarollers.us is cheaper than kaia i think! is Dr. rollers made in Korea?

The quality is not the same, nor do they have the cross-linked needle pattern that the Dr. Rollers have.

This is personally not where I would be cutting costs.

free skin care · Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:21 pm

Ella's Mommy wrote:

so did anyone find out about the loose skin and stretch marks? I just started derma rolling with the 1.0. I've been using it for 3 weeks now and not seeing any improvement. am i doing something wrong? am i missing a step? someone posted that you should draw blood when you are rolling. but other ppl say you shouldn't. help me out here. plz

It sounds like you need to do some more reading....you won't see any improvement in 3 weeks because collagen does not generate that quickly. Though you will see lots of inflammation.

Please see the CIT/Dermarolling Article thread I mentioned one page before, and make sure that you understand how this really works. Here is the info:

bethany wrote:

Has everyone read all the articles from the professionals on dermarolling?

There is a lot to be learned about rolling frequency and required topicals. I don't mean to blow my own horn here, but my dermarolling results were nothing short of spectacular... I rolled far less than most people AND used only the recommended topicals. Less really can be more, especially in this case.

Please make sure that you are appropriately educated....rolling too frequently results in ongoing inflammation which ultimately ages your skin even faster. I no longer recommend that anyone roll more frequently than every 2 weeks at the most, and every 4-6 weeks really is a much better choice. Your skin can only remodel so quickly.

CIT/Dermarolling Articles and Presentations
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860&highlight=cit

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