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free skin care · Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:13 pm

Hi Bethany

good to read that article again, thanks for posting
question(s). do you use 302 A or Retin A. I started using RA 2x per week w/ 302 (to prepare for my next roll), but i found it dried me a bit and really detracted from the nice glow i was getting from 302 - so i stopped Rolling Eyes

and am back to "square one". I'm on a self imposed TIGHT budget and have given my self NO $ for the 302 A (just SS)- do you think RA once a week will have the needed effect. What about a Vitamin A oil supplement used topically?
thanks and i understand if you're too busy to reply
m

Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:55 pm

In a link recently posted "dermaroller's Weblog" the author posted this:

"Then the skin was numbed with a new Numbing Cream LMX4 from Ferndale Ltd. that had just arrived in time by a courier from London. As an effective skin numbing is an important issue in microneedling, we were keen how good the LMX4 would perform. And to be honest, this cream exceeded all our expectations. Not only was it superior to all the numbing creams on the market, but it also worked faster (in 20 minutes only) and numbed very efficient."

when I googled LMX4 I found a lot of places that sell it...might be an alternative to EMLA. Has anyone tried it?

free skin care · Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:00 pm

rileygirl wrote:

kacy wrote:

Here's a great read on micro needling.

It's located at dermalintegrity--under News & Media - Microneedling Platlet Rich Plasma
I'm having trouble posting the link here.

It proves you don't need super long needles to get results. Collagen is created in the top .6mm of the skin. I think the platelet treatmene would be great, if there was a doctor in my area performing it.
I bought my .2 mm(works on eyelids and lips--use every night) and .5 mm(for injury--I use it one a week)from them--they're Canadian. I have been using my rollers for about 7 months and they're still sharp.
I use the Environ products to roll with.My pores are looking so much better. I'm tempted to buy a .3mm now.

Kacy

Here's the link. http://dermalintegrity.com/newsmedia/micro.html

For anyone who wants to see the pics missing at that link, you can access the same article (and MANY more) on the CIT/Dermarolling Articles thread.

There is a lot to learn from these articles if anyone is interested in maximizing their results.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

free skin care · Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:03 pm

moongoddess wrote:

Hi Bethany

good to read that article again, thanks for posting
question(s). do you use 302 A or Retin A. I started using RA 2x per week w/ 302 (to prepare for my next roll), but i found it dried me a bit and really detracted from the nice glow i was getting from 302 - so i stopped Rolling Eyes

and am back to "square one". I'm on a self imposed TIGHT budget and have given my self NO $ for the 302 A (just SS)- do you think RA once a week will have the needed effect. What about a Vitamin A oil supplement used topically?
thanks and I understand if you're too busy to reply
m

I stopped using Retin A...it was just too brutal on my skin. But using RA once a week is certainly better than no A...I would personally stick to that over using a Vit A supplement used topically.

free skin care · Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:48 pm

I think this is important when discussing the blood factor of rolling...

When I first started rolling I lived in an area where the altitude was around 7500 ft. I could NOT get blood. I use as much force as humanly possible (probably way overboard in fact) and I would get maybe a couple of spots of blood under the skin, but never any normal bleeding.

I recently moved and now live at an altitude of about 2000 ft. When I roll now I do get blood, but it's absolutely nothing like in Bethany's photo (and definitely not like the medical roll photos in the links) with the exception of behind my knees where it does get a little bloody. I certainly don't need anything close to wipe up the blood.

I don't know if the altitude influences the bleeding, but I think it's safe to say it could and does based on my results. But most importantly, I'm a normal, healthy person who doesn't drink/smoke. There's no medical reason I wouldn't bleed. I just don't have a lot of residual problems at all related to rolling. I have visible redness for a couple of days, but it's not enough redness that would cause me to stay inside or wear makeup. I apply Retin-A immediately after rolling/shower and it's never bothered me a bit.

So, I don't think you can always judge the aggressiveness, thus effectiveness, of the roll by the presence or amount of blood.

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:06 am

Hello again,

I have not seen references to rolling after Botox and/or dermal filler treatements.

Does anyone know if this is addressed anywhere?

I have had both and don't want to do anything related to rolling which could cause problems.

Thanks, BF

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:25 am

I think we need a scientist to help us better understand the marketing language behind the 302 product:

"Low molecular weight; water, oil and acid-free; easily spread, rapidly penetrating, hydrating, self-preserved clear lipid in 1 ounce amber containers with dropper and unit carton and 4 ounce amber back bar bottle with pump."

It says water, oil and acid-free, yet later refers to the product as a lipid. I know that many use the terms oils, fats and lipids interchangeably, understanding them all to mean the same substance.

From what I remember, there is only Vitamin C derivative (forget the name of it right now, MAP maybe?) that is fat soluble.

According to that PCI article and elsewhere, it is critical to use effective topicals as part of the overall rolling regimin - so understandably, I am concerned with using only effective serums.

Thanks, BF

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:46 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

Hello again,

I have not seen references to rolling after Botox and/or dermal filler treatements.

Does anyone know if this is addressed anywhere?

I have had both and don't want to do anything related to rolling which could cause problems.

Thanks, BF

I personally don't roll areaa with filler for at least 2 months after injections...I think it is very important for them to get settled in. But I haven't had any problems with rolling related to Botox or fillers (and I had both when I was rolling regularly).

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:52 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

I think we need a scientist to help us better understand the marketing language behind the 302 product:

"Low molecular weight; water, oil and acid-free; easily spread, rapidly penetrating, hydrating, self-preserved clear lipid in 1 ounce amber containers with dropper and unit carton and 4 ounce amber back bar bottle with pump."

It says water, oil and acid-free, yet later refers to the product as a lipid. I know that many use the terms oils, fats and lipids interchangeably, understanding them all to mean the same substance.

From what I remember, there is only Vitamin C derivative (forget the name of it right now, MAP maybe?) that is fat soluble.

According to that PCI article and elsewhere, it is critical to use effective topicals as part of the overall rolling regimin - so understandably, I am concerned with using only effective serums.

Thanks, BF

We are all concerned about using effective serums, lol. Unfortunately, it comes down to research and personal trial and error as to what works for your skin.

If you want to use exactly what the pros use, get the Environ EssentiA Oil. The only reason I have not gone that route is that there are NO authorized online resellers of their products, and they typically expire quickly...I haven't been willing to take the risk of buying a weakened product that may have not been stored per Environ's requirements.

But I would LOVE to know the ingredients in the EssentiA Oil if anyone has a bottle!

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:27 am

LMX 4 seems to have some advantages over Emla -less waiting time, lower risk profile.

A big advantage is that no prescripion is required and it is available online for purchasing in the US.

Here is but one article I found comparing the benefits/disadvantages of Emla vs. LMX 4

http://prod.uspharmacist.com/content/d/feature/c/12699/

BF

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:33 pm

My original aim was to reduce my stretch marks, update is now after about 2 months, the marks have faded to almost invisible.

I am now rolling lightly 5 days a week at night using 0.5mm. Not using any particular cream, I didn't use any special cream when I was rolling everyday with 1.5mm.

I did use Emu cream for a while to aid healing.

Will stop rolling in about 2 weeks.

All has worked well.

Pleased I followed the suppliers instructions.

PQ.

Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:38 pm

photoqueen wrote:

My original aim was to reduce my stretch marks, update is now after about 2 months, the marks have faded to almost invisible.

I am now rolling lightly 5 days a week at night using 0.5mm. Not using any particular cream, I didn't use any special cream when I was rolling everyday with 1.5mm.

I did use Emu cream for a while to aid healing.

Will stop rolling in about 2 weeks.

All has worked well.

Pleased I followed the suppliers instructions.

PQ.

photoqueen, that is really great news. I am very pleased for you and also it gives me renewed believe that this will work over time Smile

I have only done two rolls on my stretchmarks two weeks apart and can't see any improvement yet and started to think maybe I am the one person for whom this is not going to work.

Can I just check did you do daily gently rolls with the 1.5mm roller? I do aggressive rolls every two weeks. Have done 2 and plan on doing 4 more and then take a break for a couple of months. I read Bethany's post about micro inflamation and want to avoid the issues to frequent rolling could cause.

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:47 pm

P Girl wrote:

I think this is important when discussing the blood factor of rolling...

When I first started rolling I lived in an area where the altitude was around 7500 ft. I could NOT get blood. I use as much force as humanly possible (probably way overboard in fact) and I would get maybe a couple of spots of blood under the skin, but never any normal bleeding.

I recently moved and now live at an altitude of about 2000 ft. When I roll now I do get blood, but it's absolutely nothing like in Bethany's photo (and definitely not like the medical roll photos in the links) with the exception of behind my knees where it does get a little bloody. I certainly don't need anything close to wipe up the blood.

I don't know if the altitude influences the bleeding, but I think it's safe to say it could and does based on my results. But most importantly, I'm a normal, healthy person who doesn't drink/smoke. There's no medical reason I wouldn't bleed. I just don't have a lot of residual problems at all related to rolling. I have visible redness for a couple of days, but it's not enough redness that would cause me to stay inside or wear makeup. I apply Retin-A immediately after rolling/shower and it's never bothered me a bit.

So, I don't think you can always judge the aggressiveness, thus effectiveness, of the roll by the presence or amount of blood.

Hi Pgirl - i live at 7000ft and i do bleed, not as much as bethany or the medical roll - but enough to need to have cotton balls handy to wipe my face - like you, there is only redness post roll..no ooze no bruise. It sounds like you've had good results despite blood etc.--good to know!
m

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:02 pm

moongoddess wrote:

P Girl wrote:

I think this is important when discussing the blood factor of rolling...

When I first started rolling I lived in an area where the altitude was around 7500 ft. I could NOT get blood. I use as much force as humanly possible (probably way overboard in fact) and I would get maybe a couple of spots of blood under the skin, but never any normal bleeding.

I recently moved and now live at an altitude of about 2000 ft. When I roll now I do get blood, but it's absolutely nothing like in Bethany's photo (and definitely not like the medical roll photos in the links) with the exception of behind my knees where it does get a little bloody. I certainly don't need anything close to wipe up the blood.

I don't know if the altitude influences the bleeding, but I think it's safe to say it could and does based on my results. But most importantly, I'm a normal, healthy person who doesn't drink/smoke. There's no medical reason I wouldn't bleed. I just don't have a lot of residual problems at all related to rolling. I have visible redness for a couple of days, but it's not enough redness that would cause me to stay inside or wear makeup. I apply Retin-A immediately after rolling/shower and it's never bothered me a bit.

So, I don't think you can always judge the aggressiveness, thus effectiveness, of the roll by the presence or amount of blood.

Hi Pgirl - i live at 7000ft and i do bleed, not as much as bethany or the medical roll - but enough to need to have cotton balls handy to wipe my face - like you, there is only redness post roll..no ooze no bruise. It sounds like you've had good results despite blood etc.--good to know!
m

Interesting. I guess some people just aren't going to bleed much. But yes, my results have been thrilling so I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about not bleeding. LOL

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:06 pm

Elle,

You're doing aggressive rolls every 2 weeks with a 1.5? If you've done 2 rolls then that means you're 1 month in, right? If so, I really wouldn't expect miraculous results at this point. It hasn't been enough time.

In addition, you're probably rolling too often--especially if you're rolling aggressively. Aggressive rolls are a completely different bird from those gentle rolls. It's possible that you're hindering results by rolling too frequently.

Also, are you applying Vit. A & C? I didn't see results until I added them.

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:39 pm

bethany wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

Aren't the 302 Lightening Drops oil based?

Ingredients 302 lightening drops: Phyto-lipids of avocado, organic jojoba oil, tetrahexyldecylascorbate, lavender oil, tangerine and mint extracts

I am wondering about Bio Oil. It may be an option for some. It has A and E, but unfortunately no C.

I was thinking that they were a non-oil since they had esters of some sort, but I could be totally off base. I just remember thinking they were oils, and then reading something on the 302 website or the 302 thread that changed my mind. Maybe it varies by product? Or maybe I'm just nuts? We should ask Boski!

Barefootgirl wrote:

I think we need a scientist to help us better understand the marketing language behind the 302 product:

"Low molecular weight; water, oil and acid-free; easily spread, rapidly penetrating, hydrating, self-preserved clear lipid in 1 ounce amber containers with dropper and unit carton and 4 ounce amber back bar bottle with pump."

It says water, oil and acid-free, yet later refers to the product as a lipid. I know that many use the terms oils, fats and lipids interchangeably, understanding them all to mean the same substance.

boski wrote:

Here's Dr H's explanation of "oil-free" as used in the 302 drops description:

It should read triglyceride free but the distinction for most people would be lost – lipids are not necessarily oils, for example, jojoba oil is not a true oil, it is a wax, a straight chain hydrocarbon mixture, with almost no triglycerides (which cause the oily feel and problems to skin). Lipids can be oils, but are generally regarded as a separate class of compounds with very long and exotic names, but which comprise the most biologically interesting of all compounds in nature; they can be mixtures of sugars, proteins, polyhydric alcohols (as in the case of 302) and so many other isopropylchickenwire things that it is an entire branch of chemistry. The fats and oils that we see on the supermarket shelf, or more exotics like Shea butter have very little that is useful for skin, in fact most of the interesting things in these are lipids which are available in only trace amounts if at all - and so the distinction is real, not a thesarus choice. R

Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:38 pm

Hi Bethany,
I am a newbie on this forum. Currently I am sourcing for products and a roller for my stretchmarks. I am thinking of getting Retin A as a vitamin A topical for the skin and I am rather confused over the environ essential oils, 302 A and RA products u were talking about.

Is it Ok if u explain what those products are to me? I am pretty clueless as to what all that means. I thought getting some Retin A, (I am on the other femalefirst forum) too and making my vit c serum will do?

Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:04 am

Hi Bethany,
thanks for all your helpful info! I have a few questions if you don't mind answering them...

*I noticed that you said we shouldn't use LED lights when rolling. If I plan on using the .15mm for product absorbtion daily, can I still use my LED light? For the monthly 1.5mm rolls, how soon after can I use my LEDS? I *need* the blue one to keep my skin clear.

*Also, you said you didn't start noticing results until you started using Vit A and C. I currently use RAM, can I use other skincare prods, like Obagi Clear or Alpha hydroxy acids?

Thanks in advance!

Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:33 am

Has anyone purchased and had success with a dermaroller other than the brand of Dr. Roller? I found a dermaroller on ebay for around 60 bucks but its dermarollers.us and i was wondering if this was more or less the same thing

free skin care · Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:29 am

So, based on Dr. H's explanation then, the 302 is not an oil based C serum.

This may sound like hair splitting, but that leads me to question whether it is a good choice for post rolling.

I suspect the recommendations for an oil based C serum post rolling may be related to levels of irritation and inflammation, but cannot be sure unless I send a message to the author to confirm (?)

I believe that ascorbyl palmitate is the only Vitamin C derivative that is fat soluble, but have also read that is not effective for collagen regeneration Sad

BF

free skin care · Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:03 am

This is the ingredient list of a product called 'Let's Make Collagen'...I wanted to use it for the vitamin C serum after rolling. I am going to purchase some retinyl acetate and mix it into a base to use as the vitamin A.

Ingredients

Distilled Water, Sea Kelp Bioferment, Sodium PCA, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Pomegranate Sxtract, Natural Active Peptides, Hyaluronic Acid, L-Carnosine, Boswellia Serrata, Niacinamide, N-Acetyl Glucosamine, Centella Asiatica, Horse Chestnut Extract, Betulinic Acid, Green Tea EGCG, Epidermal Growth Factor BT, Germaben II.

Do you think the preservative (Germaben II) would make it a bad choice?

Is the retinyl acetate strong enough vitamin A?

TIA for any info.
MaryClaire

free skin care · Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:53 am

Hi MaryClaire, that looks similar to ingredients sold on Skin Actives to formulate a MAP based C serum at home.. I recall reading a note there about preservatives - either there or Garden of Wisdom.

All - here is a link to an interesting article on wound healing and the importance of Vitamin C...the list of Vitamin C's benefits in wound healing looks astounding to me:

http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_18/num_3/text/vol18n3p151.asp

BF

free skin care · Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:02 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

So, based on Dr. H's explanation then, the 302 is not an oil based C serum.

This may sound like hair splitting, but that leads me to question whether it is a good choice for post rolling.

I suspect the recommendations for an oil based C serum post rolling may be related to levels of irritation and inflammation, but cannot be sure unless I send a message to the author to confirm (?)

I believe that ascorbyl palmitate is the only Vitamin C derivative that is fat soluble, but have also read that is not effective for collagen regeneration Sad

BF

Hi BF,

The lightening drops are lipid based AND fat soluble. The term "oil-free" is hair splitting as you said. It's still fat soluble and non-acid, which is the key distinction and, in this sense, similar to the MAP form of C.

Based on my experience, it is very compatible and good for post dermarolling applications. I use it after I roll in combination with the A boost and 302 Plus serum. I've been doing this for almost 2 years without a problem and seen VERY good scar remodeling with this protocol. It's not irritating at all, not clogging, and more effective than than MAP or L-ascorbic. I believe the main reason you want to avoid L-ascorbic is because of the irritation factor, so that is why lipid or oil-based C is recommended.

free skin care · Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:26 am

boski wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

So, based on Dr. H's explanation then, the 302 is not an oil based C serum.

This may sound like hair splitting, but that leads me to question whether it is a good choice for post rolling.

I suspect the recommendations for an oil based C serum post rolling may be related to levels of irritation and inflammation, but cannot be sure unless I send a message to the author to confirm (?)

I believe that ascorbyl palmitate is the only Vitamin C derivative that is fat soluble, but have also read that is not effective for collagen regeneration Sad

BF

Hi BF,

The lightening drops are lipid based AND fat soluble. The term "oil-free" is hair splitting as you said. It's still fat soluble and non-acid, which is the key distinction and, in this sense, similar to the MAP form of C.

Based on my experience, it is very compatible and good for post dermarolling applications. I use it after I roll in combination with the A boost and 302 Plus serum. I've been doing this for almost 2 years without a problem and seen VERY good scar remodeling with this protocol. It's not irritating at all, not clogging, and more effective than than MAP or L-ascorbic. I believe the main reason you want to avoid L-ascorbic is because of the irritation factor, so that is why lipid or oil-based C is recommended.

To clarify what exactly is in the 302 Lightening drops, its the tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate form of C, at a 16% concentration (which is extremely high). Read the info about it here, in particular the study comparing it to L-ascorbic C:

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/store/Tetrahexyldecyl-Ascorbate-pr-16382.html

Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:38 am

P Girl wrote:

Elle,

You're doing aggressive rolls every 2 weeks with a 1.5? If you've done 2 rolls then that means you're 1 month in, right? If so, I really wouldn't expect miraculous results at this point. It hasn't been enough time.

In addition, you're probably rolling too often--especially if you're rolling aggressively. Aggressive rolls are a completely different bird from those gentle rolls. It's possible that you're hindering results by rolling too frequently.

Also, are you applying Vit. A & C? I didn't see results until I added them.

Hi P girl, I don't think rolling every 14 days is too often the vendor said weekly which I found too often so I am doing if fortnightly. I got a cream which I use on my body it has vitamin c as the main component. I am using a 1mm roller for face and body. I know topical vit c is impotant but I am also eating a vit, protein etc rich diet at the moment so my body has the ingredients internally to make new collagen. Do you or anyone else here really think that 1mm fortnightly roll is too much? Many Thanks Elle

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