DermaRoller
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free skin care · Tue May 27, 2008 7:48 pm

Kris_*Kringle* wrote:

Thanks Bethany!

Could you please tell me what is the smallest size needles that can be used to stimulate collagen production?

In one place I saw .5 (which made me happy), but then elsewhere I saw it had to be 1.5

My main areas of concern are lines above my lip, and some crepiness on my lower neck.

Thanks again for all your wonderful input!

Krista

Krista,

There are many opinions on this, and I am new to rolling so I cannot base this on my personal experience. We all know that I research things to death, so let me point out what the experts say:

Horst Liebl (one of the inventors) describes his products in the following manner...you will see that HE says that .5mm is capable of collagen production. I am including all of his models so that you can see how he recommends using each of them

Quote:

The Dermaroller™ consists of a series of devices, which have both cosmetic and medical applications. Their mechanism of action is through the painless piercing of the stratum corneum of the epidermis and the subsequent tremendous increase in absorption of every substance one might apply on the human skin.

The Dermaroller™ C-8 (Cosmetic type), consists of a 12cm handle at the end of which lies a cylinder, like a small paint-roller, of 2cm diameter and 2cm length. On the surface of the cylinder, 24 circular arrays of 8 needles each (total 192 needles) are found, with a needle length of only 0.13mm (130 µm).
Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance applied on the skin will gain access to the deeper and viable skin layers. The size is of the needles is more than enough to pierce the stratum corneum and allow increase in absorption of almost 10,000-fold compared to simple application to skin, but are small enough to be absolutely painless on the skin.

The Dermaroller™ C-8HE (Cosmetic model for hair-bearing surfaces, scalp - later named: Model M03) has the same size and amount of needles with the Dermaroller C-8, but the needle length is 0.3mm (300 µm). This length is still below the pain threshold, as it will be later demonstrated.

The Dermaroller™ CIT-8 (CIT: Collagen Induction Therapy, Medical model) has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 0.5mm (500 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates deeper micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance we apply on the skin will gain access to even deeper and viable skin layers. On the same time, controlled, minuscule trauma is caused to the dermis, which reacts physiologically by producing collagen. The exact mechanisms of action are described later.

The Dermaroller™ MF-8 has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 1.5mm (1500µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates even deeper micro-channels on the whole epidermis and dermis. At the same time, these longer needles will destroy scar collagen bundles, atrophic stretch marks or cellulitis bundles (orange skin).

The Dermaroller™ MS-4 is the only Dermaroller that has a smaller cylinder, 1cm length, 2cm diameter, and subsequently 4 circular arrays of needles (total 96 needles). It has the same needle length like the MF-8 model, that is 1.5mm (1500µm), it has the same indications of use like the MF-8 but mostly on areas where precision and deeper penetration is required. It is mostly used on facial acne scars.

http://www.dermaroller.de/us/science/percutanous-delivery.html

Fernandes (the other inventor) also sells a line of rollers called Environ, and published an article specifically talking about usage in lip lines...he used either a 1mm or a 3mm.

Quote:

Large and Small Needles
Currently, two types of surgical needles are used in this procedure: a 1-mm model and a deeper-penetrating 3-mm version. Each also comes in various gauges to better address the area to be treated.

The advantages of using a 1-mm roller are that the procedure is easily performed with topical anesthesia and there is virtually no downtime. The skin bleeds only to a minor degree and looks flushed immediately after the treatment. After 1 day, the skin looks as though the patient has a modest sunburn. When treating lips with a 1-mm needle, the procedure should be repeated every 2 to 3 weeks for a total of at least six treatments.

http://www.vivida.co.za/news/show_article/3

If you are really scared about this, but still want to try it, my personal recommendation is that you start with a .25mm. That should help alleviate any fears that you have, and it will NOT be wasted money because you can use it several times a week and increase your product penetration.

Then, if you want to work up, you can make your next choice. But I would probably go with the 1.0mm over the .5mm.

Those are just my thoughts from the peanut gallery. Smile

free skin care · Tue May 27, 2008 8:14 pm

Bethany, you are the best little researcher ever.. Wink

It's all clearer now. I did read the info you posted a few days back on Dr Fernandes.

I'm going to read everything I can, while I'm mustering up some courage, and will probably consider the .5 down the road apiece.. Confused

I just know me well enough to know, that anything bigger than that, will wind up tenderizing my steaks.. Shock

free skin care · Tue May 27, 2008 8:21 pm

Kris_*Kringle* wrote:

Bethany, you are the best little researcher ever.. Wink

It's all clearer now. I did read the info you posted a few days back on Dr Fernandes.

I'm going to read everything I can, while I'm mustering up some courage, and will probably consider the .5 down the road apiece.. Confused

I just know me well enough to know, that anything bigger than that, will wind up tenderizing my steaks.. Shock

And at the end of the day, all that matters is that YOU are comfortable.

Take as much time as you need, and ask any questions that you may have...there are plenty of people here to help. Smile

free skin care · Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 pm

Many thanks...

free skin care · Tue May 27, 2008 10:32 pm

Kris_*Kringle* wrote:

So here's my questions; What would the derma rolling do, that the LED isn't doing already? Would it just be faster results? And for those using an LED and derma roller, how can you be sure what is doing what?

I'd hate to go through the pain, unless I could expect exceptional results...(Truth is, I really am a wuss!!)

I also use an LED and think that it has helped in evening out my skin tone. But to be absolutely honest with you I have much more faith in the Dermaroller - I definitely subscribe to the "no pain, no gain" theory. After you have rolled you will see that your skin is quite red and perhaps stings a bit. Over the next few days your skin settles down and heals. To me this actually physically feels that you are building new skin - does that sound crazy? It's just that the whole process makes so much sense to me and I can "see" it happening. With the LED, the process happens much more "quietly".

Also I think you ladies should take note of the time of the month that you roll. Don't forget that around the time of your period you are much more sensitive to pain - so take this into consideration. Also, don't forget that you are rolling yourself - you control the pressure so if you're totally wussy, just don't press hard. The more familiar you become with rolling, the more comfortable and confident you will be.

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 5:30 am

platinumrose wrote:

It goes back to my theory about all the AHA's and peels we were all using and now finding out that all this exfoliation was not a good thing. It just thinned our skin out as we age. Our skin has a limited times of replication cyles. This is why I refuse to use Renova, Tazorac, RetinA strong Retinols.

Regarding your concerns about Retin-A and taking into consideration the fact that the Good Doctors recommend its use along with rolling, here is an article on Retin-A that Septembergirl posted on another thread - I'm sure she won't mind my sharing it here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/30/fashion/30skin.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 5:38 am

Hello, FloridaUSA.

Welcome to the forum. Please contribute with your experiences from rolling. I will get my rollers in a couple of weeks and have to admit I am pretty scared by the thought of perforating my skin.

I really wish the 0.5 mm would stimulate collagen growth, but from what I have been reading, I have my doubts.

Keliu - it's a good article. Please share! Smile

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 7:04 am

Thanks girls for all replies!
Very informative!

I'm planning to buy one (not sure what size 0.5 or 1.0 thou). And plan to roll it on friday's evenings, so I will have weekend to heal the skin. From your experience - can I apply make up on Monday? How skin color changes after rolling? I mean - will my face be red or swelled up after few days?
Sorry, if you find my questions stupid, but I don't want to scare my co-workers on Monday morning Laughing

Thanks in advance.

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 7:42 am

Good morning all:
Yesterday afternoon, I went for my first botox treatment. I spoke with the dr. that did the injections about all the products and procedures I do. She thought they all had merit. I explained the roller (CIT) and she was very aware of this and the person who invented this technique. She thought it had a great deal of possibility in promoting collagen. I forgot to tell her about the vaculift. I will ask her about this when I go in for my followup. I went home and did a deep roll on my lips and my jowls. My lips are swollen. She said not to do my 11 between my eyes for a week or so. I will not do them for at least a few weeks. I said I was going to stop for a month, however, I felt I needed to do my lips. I think I am addicted to this roller thing.
I will play it by ear on whether I roll again for this month.

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 7:47 am

Oh, and I forgot. The most important part. However, we already know this.

She said to use retinol before and after you roll. I use Trazoc. So I did just that. We will see how much I peel. I ususally peel after a roll. It should be a lot more.

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 8:20 am

sherryf13500 wrote:

I went home and did a deep roll on my lips and my jowls. My lips are swollen. She said not to do my 11 between my eyes for a week or so. I will not do them for at least a few weeks. I said I was going to stop for a month, however, I felt I needed to do my lips. I think I am addicted to this roller thing.
I will play it by ear on whether I roll again for this month.

Sherry, did you roll your actual lips, or ABOVE your lips?

Also, the * spam alert * factor is why I think we should all have the .25mm....you can roll away without disturbing the new collagen that is being laid down from your less-frequent longer needle rolls!

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 8:22 am

Septembergirl wrote:

Hello, FloridaUSA.
I really wish the 0.5 mm would stimulate collagen growth, but from what I have been reading

Agreed...the info out there is definitely sparse on the topic. I think 1.0mm and above is really a safer bet for collagen development.

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 8:30 am

Bethany,
I roll just above my upper lips and get my lips too. I don't roll the lips but the roller definately hits them

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 9:01 am

I wanted to post my outcome from using the .25 or .5 (not sure - I have the smallest Leaf and Rusher model)

Ive had this skin issue for years and I have no clue what it even is (will ask my dermatologist next week). My entire front cheek area has what looks like very large sagging pores - looks horrible. Im not sure if its sundamage or maybe due to acne. Weird thing is its uniform on both cheeks (quite a large area too) - but the rest of my skin is fine.

Anyway - I JUST noticed a few days ago that most of this area has greatly improved. I am also using the facemaster and cupping - but I know that I have been aggressively using the dermaroller more in this area - thing is I was doing so to plump up the area (using Retin A) - not so much to improve this issue because I didnt think these small needles would help.

Well... I guess they do!! Isnt that amazing??? Im very pleased!!

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 9:04 am

This thread is so long, and I've done my best to read most of it. What I would really like to know, is how many of you are still using it since this thread was started 13 months ago. Can you also tell us exactly how it changed things for the better? Did your skin firm up? Did the wrinkles fill in from more collagen?Does anybody care to share before and after pictures? And the big question. Have any of you had enough success with this, that you were able to stop getting botox, restylane, juviderm etc..?

My areas of interest are neck and upper lip lines. Please also be brutally honest, and tell me I haven't chosen the most painful areas.. Sad

And now your all talking about it being addictive.. Shock

..You're all a bunch of bloody pushers..... Laughing

Thanks for all your help. I'm sorry if I'm a pain in the butt... Hey, can you do it on your butt too? .. hmm

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 10:16 am

mb935 wrote:

I wanted to post my outcome from using the .25 or .5 (not sure - I have the smallest Leaf and Rusher model)

Ive had this skin issue for years and I have no clue what it even is (will ask my dermatologist next week). My entire front cheek area has what looks like very large sagging pores - looks horrible. Im not sure if its sundamage or maybe due to acne. Weird thing is its uniform on both cheeks (quite a large area too) - but the rest of my skin is fine.

Anyway - I JUST noticed a few days ago that most of this area has greatly improved. I am also using the facemaster and cupping - but I know that I have been aggressively using the dermaroller more in this area - thing is I was doing so to plump up the area (using Retin A) - not so much to improve this issue because I didnt think these small needles would help.

Well... I guess they do!! Isnt that amazing??? Im very pleased!!

It is absolutely fabulous news to see that you are getting these results with a smaller roller!!

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 10:17 am

I just saw this on a totally different thread (Leaf & Rusher review) and wanted to share on the primary thread due to all the great info.

ScotsLass wrote:

AnnieR wrote:

ScotsLass-sorry, didn't mean to mislead but I haven't had any myself, but with fragile skin I thought I would ask (asked also on the dermaroller thread). I've been rolling about a month once a week very lightly with a 1.5 and it's been great, no problems, but I hear of people that push harder and have bruising so I was just curious. Since I can have a red mark left from an acne scar I thought it might be worth checking into. I don't use topicals directly after, just a bit of Active Serum with hydracool in about an hour and it does soak in nicely. I have followed the crisscross pattern on my Leaf and Rusher directions so it's going well, no blood or even peeling.
My caps have always been there, but I just had an IPL and didn't want to make any more permanent marks. Thanks for the help.

Hey Annie - Glad to hear that you were asking a question out of curiosity and not because you experienced anything adverse with your own roller. Smile

Bruising happens as a result of blood rupturing beneath the skin from an intensive rolling session (meaning more pressure was applied and for a longer period of time). Pinpricks of blood will not cause bruising, unlike oozing area's of blood, so as long as you continue to roll the same way you've been doing, you shouldn't bruise at all. If anyone finds they have areas of their skin that oozes with blood they really ought to use an antiseptic immediately after a treatment, as infection is a legitimate concern and should be taken seriously.

Generally speaking, bruising will not happen if you are using the smaller rollers such as 0.5 mm, 0.75 mm and 1.0 mm, as they do not target the deeper skin layers and instead create 'channels' in the upper layers of your skin that allow topicals to penetrate further. The shorter needle sizes can also be used more than once a week as they are not able to damage new collagen formation the same way that the longer needles can.

The longer needles break down old damaged collagen strands and this abrasion, or minor injury in the dermis, induces the production of fresh new collagen. If you repeatedly roll your skin with the longer rollers (1.5 mm and up) more than once a week, you are effectively breaking down the new collagen before it has time to properly re-stimluate. In other words, you are mowing down the new collagen during the time frame that it requires to start 'building' again. This is why you'll find many articles or documents about dermarolling that suggest you roll with the longer rollers once a week for 6 weeks then STOP rolling entirely for a period of 12 weeks. It then takes at least 90 days of no rolling for your skin to fully regenerate. So you will not know the real results of this 6 week session until that time.

In the meantime, while you are waiting to see the FULL results of your 6 week cycle with the 1.5 mm roller, you can still use the smaller rollers 2 to 3 times a week as a means of helping your topicals & actives penetrate deeper. I've actually married the two protocols together and use a smaller roller for product penetration Monday's and Wednesday's before bed with my serums, and the 1.5 mm roller on Friday's for my weekly intensive session. Once my 6 week cycle with the larger roller is done, I will continue to use the smaller roller at least twice a week at night before I apply my evening products. The reason I do this at night verus the day is because collagen production is higher while you're sleeping.

FYI to those using Skinbiology's Copper Peptide serums. CP's are not to be used directly on any kind of open wound; and area's with oozing blood classify as such. For this reason, CP's should NEVER be used immediately after a rolling session if your skin is OOZING at all as the CP's can inadvertently trigger the formation of *scar collagen*. If your skin is not oozing, you can safely apply a copper peptide product. It is advised by Skinbio that you start with a milder CP and dilute it with water if you intend to use it right after a rolling session as the product is being delivered significantly deeper into your skin and this can cause a great deal of inflammation and/or a sensation of burning and itching. IF your skin does become super inflamed after you've applied a CP right after you've rolled, and the inflammation does not subside, rinse it with water repeatedly and then use Emu oil alone until the next day.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8526

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 3:13 pm

bethany wrote:

mb935 wrote:

I wanted to post my outcome from using the .25 or .5 (not sure - I have the smallest Leaf and Rusher model)

Ive had this skin issue for years and I have no clue what it even is (will ask my dermatologist next week). My entire front cheek area has what looks like very large sagging pores - looks horrible. Im not sure if its sundamage or maybe due to acne. Weird thing is its uniform on both cheeks (quite a large area too) - but the rest of my skin is fine.

Anyway - I JUST noticed a few days ago that most of this area has greatly improved. I am also using the facemaster and cupping - but I know that I have been aggressively using the dermaroller more in this area - thing is I was doing so to plump up the area (using Retin A) - not so much to improve this issue because I didnt think these small needles would help.

Well... I guess they do!! Isnt that amazing??? Im very pleased!!

It is absolutely fabulous news to see that you are getting these results with a smaller roller!!

*** Leaf & Rusher Update ***

I just called L&R, and asked about their rollers (new and old).

The ONLY version of the old roller was .15mm.

The NEW roller is .16mm and is manufactured in Korea, which confirms that it is a Dr. Roller as we thought.

The great news is that mb935 is having wonderful results with a roller that is only .15mm long.

While you will indeed have more collagen development with longer needles, you can STILL see some benefits from the shorter needles if you are not yet ready to go with the big guns.

This is also consistent with the feedback we got from the DermaRoller company:

bethany wrote:

Horst Liebl (one of the inventors) said that using a .2mm 2x a week for 2 to 3 months will increase your epidermal thickness by 30-40% in 2 to 3 months.

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 3:48 pm

sherryf13500 wrote:

Good morning all:
Yesterday afternoon, I went for my first botox treatment. I spoke with the dr. that did the injections about all the products and procedures I do. She thought they all had merit. I explained the roller (CIT) and she was very aware of this and the person who invented this technique. She thought it had a great deal of possibility in promoting collagen. I forgot to tell her about the vaculift. I will ask her about this when I go in for my followup. I went home and did a deep roll on my lips and my jowls. My lips are swollen. She said not to do my 11 between my eyes for a week or so. I will not do them for at least a few weeks. I said I was going to stop for a month, however, I felt I needed to do my lips. I think I am addicted to this roller thing.
I will play it by ear on whether I roll again for this month.

Perhaps you could ask about your doctor's view on the short needles vs. the longer in order to thicken skin and make collagen growth?

Smile

Wed May 28, 2008 4:00 pm

Hello,
I'm waiting for two 1.5mm rollers from Nova and am thinking that I should also get a 0.25mm for product penetration. (I'll have to move my husband to another bathroom soon. So many gadgets and products Very Happy

)
Dr Roller from Jack are a lot cheaper than Nova or the original dermaroller brand.
Are you sure Dr Roller is a high quality product?
Thank you

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 6:00 pm

Cini wrote:

Hello,
I'm waiting for two 1.5mm rollers from Nova and am thinking that I should also get a 0.25mm for product penetration. (I'll have to move my husband to another bathroom soon. So many gadgets and products Very Happy

)
Dr Roller from Jack are a lot cheaper than Nova or the original dermaroller brand.
Are you sure Dr Roller is a high quality product?
Thank you

These are the same rollers that Nova sells for $105, and that Leaf & Rusher is now selling for $118.

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 6:44 pm

Septembergirl wrote:

sherryf13500 wrote:

Good morning all:
Yesterday afternoon, I went for my first botox treatment. I spoke with the dr. that did the injections about all the products and procedures I do. She thought they all had merit. I explained the roller (CIT) and she was very aware of this and the person who invented this technique. She thought it had a great deal of possibility in promoting collagen. I forgot to tell her about the vaculift. I will ask her about this when I go in for my followup. I went home and did a deep roll on my lips and my jowls. My lips are swollen. She said not to do my 11 between my eyes for a week or so. I will not do them for at least a few weeks. I said I was going to stop for a month, however, I felt I needed to do my lips. I think I am addicted to this roller thing.
I will play it by ear on whether I roll again for this month.

Perhaps you could ask about your doctor's view on the short needles vs. the longer in order to thicken skin and make collagen growth?

And how frequently to roll would be great too. Smile

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 6:57 pm

bethany wrote:

The great news is that mb935 is having wonderful results with a roller that is only .15mm long.

While you will indeed have more collagen development with longer needles, you can STILL see some benefits from the shorter needles if you are not yet ready to go with the big guns.

This is also consistent with the feedback we got from the DermaRoller company:

bethany wrote:

Horst Liebl (one of the inventors) said that using a .2mm 2x a week for 2 to 3 months will increase your epidermal thickness by 30-40% in 2 to 3 months.

Just to clarify - this needle length is far too small to generate any collagen. You would definitely need to go longer for that.

free skin care · Wed May 28, 2008 9:29 pm

I just used my 1.0mm for the first time tonight, and decided to use it my hands since they seem to recover the most slowly (tomorrow will be my face)...

My process:
- I sprayed and wiped my hands with the Bactine Pain Relieving and Cleansing Spray.
- I did a quick pass with my .5mm roller because my Super T instructions said that it would absorb better that way.
- I applied the Super T anesthetic thinly (it did say to do it "sparingly" and waited 20 minutes.
- I washed the Super T off one hand with the Bactine Spray.
- I began rolling my left hand.
- I began cursing.
- I invented some new curse words.
- I then repeated on my right hand.
- I cursed some more.
- I cleaned both of my hands with the Bactine Spray
- I will apply Retin A in about 30 mins.

My takeaways:
- It was over pretty quickly (thank goodness)
- This hurt about twice as much as the .5mm roller, even though I had a much stronger numbing cream (I will be looking for something stronger!)
- I doubt that I rolled as aggressively as I did with the .5mm because it hurt more.
- The women who have been rolling with the 1.5mm (especially the ones who do not use a topical anesthetic) are TOUGH COOKIES, and have my full respect.
- I am a wuss, and at this moment am very thankful that I have never given birth.
- I don't want to scare anyone, but Keliu is totally right when she says "no pain, no gain."
- I don't know how in the heck I could use this on my face...maybe with more numbing cream?
- I now know why people pay $2500 for this at a doctor's office...they are paying for the luxury of being put under anesthesia!
- But it REALLY is over quickly, and I can probably tough it out on my face.

Sooo...Does anyone have any recommendations to make the process any less painful??? Embarassed

free skin care · Thu May 29, 2008 1:17 am

bethany, you left "gasping", "hyperventilating", and "uttering tiny little shrieks" out of your process list! Laughing

Honestly, though, IMO I would think rolling the back of your hand would be at least as bad as your face. The backs of my hands seem pretty sensitive.

My $0.02: Even with the 1.5, the face really isn't too bad except for the forehead. Forehead do hurt. I think the less fat/collagen you have covering an area, the more it hurts.

Neck is only so-so hurty, except over the adam's apple part, which doesn't have much fatty deposit over it. I could probably get through the face and neck without any anesthetic, but it's my decollatege that gets me. Rolling over my sternum HURTS, and that's mainly what all my pain control measures are for, even though the anesthteics (both topical and oral) do help get a more aggressive roll all over. Without doing my decollatege I think the 1.5 would be doable w/o pain control, even if it's not something you would particularly look forward to. I tried it with no anesthetic once, but decided I was NEVER doing my decollatege again without an anesthetic. Yowch!

Another thing I think is that there are so many options available to alleviate some of the discomfort, why not take advantage of them if you can or want to?

Someone here (forget who) advocates doing one area at a time over a number of days instead of cramming everything into one big roll, and IMO that would probably be another way to make the 1.5 tolerable with no anesthetics. I personally don't feel like dragging it out like that...Friday or Saturday is usually my rolling night, and it takes me approximately 20 minutes to do everything real good. However, doing piecemeal (face one night, neck the next, etc.) would probably get the roll over quickly enough to make the 1.5 tolerable with no anesthetics.

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