For Vitamin C Serum DIYers
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free skin care · Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:25 pm

I agree I think I would go with your plan as well! That's just my opinion based on the different ph levels they each need for efficacy.

DM Smile

ShastaGirl wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

ShastaGirl,

That's one of my favorite sites for information on ingredients! Glad you found it helpful!
What is bothering me is this part: may discolor in pH <6, and LAA is best at a ph of 3 or lower so I am wondering if they work well in the same serum? They recommend a higher ph for the MAP to be used at!
They do have a lot of recipes there! Smile

DM

DM - Yes, I saw that on the pH. That also makes me wonder about mixing it with the LAA. I also checked with GOW, which is where I got the MAP and they recommend a pH of 7.0-8.5! http://www.gardenofwisdom.com/catalog/item/4073723/3856154.htm. I hadn't noticed that when I bought it.

I think I'll stick to the 15% C, E, Ferulic without the MAP (ok...maybe I'll try the jojoba one sometime too, since that one gets raves). I'll use the MAP in another way to preserve the pH.

Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:16 am

Where do you ladies buy the ingredients to make your vitamin C serum? What kind of store would I go to in order to find glycerin and ascorbic acid? I live in Atlanta, Georgia if anyone knows anywhere nearby that would have it....

Thanks ahead of time for your help! Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:59 am

Most of the items are ordered online, you might find some at local Health Food stores but it's easier to order all at once, here is the recipe index and near the bottom are lists of suppliers, in case you haven't found it yet!

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=11902

HTH
DM Smile

a few that are used by most are:

http://www.bulkactives.com
http://www.lotioncrafters.com
http://www.skinactives.com
http://www.makingcosmetics.com

Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:01 am

DarkMoon wrote:

Most of the items are ordered online, you might find some at local Health Food stores but it's easier to order all at once, here is the recipe index and near the bottom are lists of suppliers, in case you haven't found it yet!

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=11902

HTH
DM Smile

a few that are used by most are:

http://www.bulkactives.com
http://www.lotioncrafters.com
http://www.skinactives.com
http://www.makingcosmetics.com

Thank you DarkMoon!
One more question for you... Where can I purchase distilled water? It that also something I should purchase online, or can I find it at my grocery store?

Thanks!

free skin care · Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:00 am

chellelynn,

Distilled water is available at the grocery store or drug stores, it's with the regular bottled water normally I find gallon jugs. It's very inexpensive. Smile

HTH
DM

free skin care · Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:15 am

Thanks for the great vitamin c serum tips - I made a basic one with the glycerin, DH20 & LAA - would like to improve it, but still do not have all of the ingredients for Kassy's latest greatest C. Was wondering if I could get your opinions on just using
1 tsp L-AA
3 tsps dh2o
1 tsp jojoba
1/4 tsp vodka

Is it possible to increase the amount of the LAA to make a 20% serum? Thanks, Lynn

free skin care · Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:32 am

lynnn wrote:

Thanks for the great vitamin c serum tips - I made a basic one with the glycerin, DH20 & LAA - would like to improve it, but still do not have all of the ingredients for Kassy's latest greatest C. Was wondering if I could get your opinions on just using
1 tsp L-AA
3 tsps dh2o
1 tsp jojoba
1/4 tsp vodka

Is it possible to increase the amount of the LAA to make a 20% serum? Thanks, Lynn

The ingredients are in there for a reason. The Vodka is there to dissolve the Ferulic Acid, so it's pointless having the Vodka without the FA. You also need the SKB to emulsify and incorporate the Jojoba Oil because oil and water don't mix.

free skin care · Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:17 pm

Alley wrote:

ShastaGirl wrote:

Has anyone noticed that DIY Vit. C serum with MAP turns yellow more quickly than one with just LAA?

I've made Kassy's 15% C, E, Ferulic many times since last August. The last time, I made the 20% recipe that includes MAP (ingredients listed below). But I've found that the version with MAP has now turned yellow, about 4 weeks since making it. Nothing has changed in how I've stored it and it's all the same ingredients that I've had. The recipe with just LAA has easily lasted me 6+ weeks without discoloration.

Here are the ingredients in the MAP recipe:
1 tsp LAA
½ tsp MAP
¼ tsp Ferulic Acid
¼ tsp Vitamin E oil
3 tsp H20 (distilled)
1 tsp SKB
½ tsp Glycerin
½ tsp Hyaluronic Acid

Shastagirl I make a version of this c-serum and yes the MAP seems to accelerate the oxidization process. I remember Kassy saying something about that about 30 pages ago Laughing

I just accept that I need to make the c-serum every 4 weeks instead of 6.

Yep, I warned you guys when I was asked to come up with a recipe that contained both, that it was against my better judgement... Wink

Here's the thing with this particualar recipe though, the L-AA is what is of benefit in there, so that is where the pH of the recipe is of greater concern (to me).

Has anybody noticed the lovely *hot diggity dog* smell at the 5ish week mark when using MAP with L-AA? That never happens to me when I leave my L-AA alone. I hate MAP, and in general, find C esters fairly useless. I have yet to have an L-AA recipe go off, and that includes a test vial that continues to sit on my bathroom counter, and is opened daily... It's been 11 weeks so far!

Keep it simple, using L-AA with other compatible ingredients, and only then will you enjoy the wonders of this lovely *skin changing* active.

Here's the latest serum I've been testing for almost a month and it's fabuloso, if I do say so myself;

18% L-AA
1% Vitamin E
.5% Ferulic Acid
2% Niacinamide
2% Licorice Root Extract
1% Retinyl Palmitate

You're all on your own for the rest, because I've had it with being picked apart, when I am only trying to share and help.

ETA: For anybody who tries this new recipe, please keep in mind that Retinol is even more sensitive to UV light than L-AA, so if using in the a.m., please apply 1 hour prior to going outdoor. I've been enjoying alternating this with Retin-A every other night which works well for me.

free skin care · Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:17 pm

Thanks Keliu for clarifying and Kassy thanks again for your generous sharing and endless research. Lynn

free skin care · Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:44 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Here's the latest serum I've been testing for almost a month and it's fabuloso, if I do say so myself;

18% L-AA
1% Vitamin E
.5% Ferulic Acid
2% Niacinamide
2% Licorice Root Extract
1% Retinyl Palmitate

Any idea what the final pH of this new recipe is? I only ask, because I found this information when searching for niacinamide instructions:

Quote:

To avoid the hydrolysis of Niacinamide to nicotinic acid, we recommend the pH of the finished formulation be in the range of 5.0 to 7.0. The hydrolysis of Niacinamide to nicotinic acid can result in skin flushing, redness and burning. Please note that Niacinamide added to pure distilled water will have the desired pH of 6.0-7.0.

http://www.theherbarie.com/Niacinamide-USP---Vitamin-B3-pr-394.html

I believe that the pH of an effective L-AA product should be 3.5 or below.

TIA

free skin care · Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:00 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Has anybody noticed the lovely *hot diggity dog* smell at the 5ish week mark when using MAP with L-AA? That never happens to me when I leave my L-AA alone. I hate MAP, and in general, find C esters fairly useless. I have yet to have an L-AA recipe go off, and that includes a test vial that continues to sit on my bathroom counter, and is opened daily... It's been 11 weeks so far!

I didn't notice a smell with my MAP serum...however, I did toss it at 4 weeks, since it had gotten so yellow. I'd always heard that MAP was more stable than LAA. I've now gone back to the version with just the LAA.

free skin care · Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:10 pm

Reposting to explain the yellow color if you formulate at too low a ph with MAP!

DarkMoon wrote:

This from http://makingcosmetics.com might help explain the yellow color as MAP has a white/yelowish color naturally, also note the correct ph at which it should be formulated at!

Description: Very stable vitamin C derivative (L-Ascorbic acid mono-dihydrogen phosphate magnesium salt) that does not degrade in formulas containing water. Light-stable and oxygen-stable. Purity >98.0 %. White-yellowish powder, mild odor. Soluble in water, may discolor in pH <6, best when used in emulsion based products at pH between 5.5-7. pH Value: 7.0-8.5. CAS# 114040-31-2.

free skin care · Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:08 pm

Lacy53 wrote:

Any idea what the final pH of this new recipe is? I only ask, because I found this information when searching for niacinamide instructions:

Quote:

To avoid the hydrolysis of Niacinamide to nicotinic acid, we recommend the pH of the finished formulation be in the range of 5.0 to 7.0. The hydrolysis of Niacinamide to nicotinic acid can result in skin flushing, redness and burning. Please note that Niacinamide added to pure distilled water will have the desired pH of 6.0-7.0.

http://www.theherbarie.com/Niacinamide-USP---Vitamin-B3-pr-394.html

I believe that the pH of an effective L-AA product should be 3.5 or below.

This is a pertinent question and one that has been raised before when discussing the use of Niacinamide. I make a Niacinamide and Glucosamine Serum and the pH comes out a 6. My LAA Serum is pH3 so if the two were combined the pH might not be suitable for either active.

free skin care · Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:50 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Alley wrote:

ShastaGirl wrote:

Has anyone noticed that DIY Vit. C serum with MAP turns yellow more quickly than one with just LAA?

I've made Kassy's 15% C, E, Ferulic many times since last August. The last time, I made the 20% recipe that includes MAP (ingredients listed below). But I've found that the version with MAP has now turned yellow, about 4 weeks since making it. Nothing has changed in how I've stored it and it's all the same ingredients that I've had. The recipe with just LAA has easily lasted me 6+ weeks without discoloration.

Here are the ingredients in the MAP recipe:
1 tsp LAA
½ tsp MAP
¼ tsp Ferulic Acid
¼ tsp Vitamin E oil
3 tsp H20 (distilled)
1 tsp SKB
½ tsp Glycerin
½ tsp Hyaluronic Acid

Shastagirl I make a version of this c-serum and yes the MAP seems to accelerate the oxidization process. I remember Kassy saying something about that about 30 pages ago Laughing

I just accept that I need to make the c-serum every 4 weeks instead of 6.

Yep, I warned you guys when I was asked to come up with a recipe that contained both, that it was against my better judgement... Wink

Keep it simple, using L-AA with other compatible ingredients, and only then will you enjoy the wonders of this lovely *skin changing* active.

Here's the latest serum I've been testing for almost a month and it's fabuloso, if I do say so myself;

18% L-AA
1% Vitamin E
.5% Ferulic Acid
2% Niacinamide
2% Licorice Root Extract
1% Retinyl Palmitate

You're all on your own for the rest, because I've had it with being picked apart, when I am only trying to share and help.

Ooh lala - a new C with niacinamide. This is one ingredient I've been wanting to give a go.

I've noticed things have changed in general on the forum - people more reticent to share, (pictures, recipes, ideas), fear of post chasing, undo criticism, defensiveness.... sad commentary.

free skin care · Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:23 pm

sister sweets wrote:

[Ooh lala - a new C with niacinamide. This is one ingredient I've been wanting to give a go.

I've noticed things have changed in general on the forum - people more reticent to share, (pictures, recipes, ideas), fear of post chasing, undo criticism, defensiveness.... sad commentary.

I'm not sure what you're referring to in the way of "undo criticism", hope it's not my worrying about the combining of Niacinamide with Vitamin C - because I think this is important. I do use a Niacinamide serum, but I don't combine it with Ascorbic Acid because of the pH situation.

The Skinactives website recommends that Niacinamide should be paired with Glucosamine for full benefits of both.

free skin care · Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:32 am

Kassy_A wrote:

18% L-AA
1% Vitamin E
.5% Ferulic Acid
2% Niacinamide
2% Licorice Root Extract
1% Retinyl Palmitate

Kassy - how are you dissolving the Retinyl Palmitate and Ferulic Acid now that there's no alcohol in the formula?

I'm presuming you're buying the Retinyl Palmitate from Makingcosmetics (because I can't find it available anywhere else), their blurb says:

Description: Highly active, fat-soluble vitamin with various effects on skin. Activity 1.7 Mio IU/g. Clear, golden oily liquid, faint odor. Slightly soluble in alcohol, miscible in oils, insoluble in water. CAS# 79-81-2.

So is there another ingredient in there that's dissolving the Ferulic and RP? Also, you don't have water in your ingredient list, but I'm assuming that it is the base.

Also in the Makingcosmetics sample recipe they combine Vitamin C Ascorbyl Palmitate (not LAA) with the Retinyl Palmitate - both being fat soluble. I'm just wondering if this would be a better option:

Vitamin A Palmitate provides anti- wrinkle and regenerating properties while Ascorbyl Palmitate acts as an anti- oxidant and improves skin elasticity. Apply the cream- gel as a twice- a- day treatment regimen.

Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:59 pm

May we ask those participating in this thread to please stick to voicing their opinion about the topic itself and avoid engaging in name calling, negative personal remarks or backhanded digs as they are not welcome on the forum. Several posts have been removed for this reason together with the ensuing responses. Any further contributions to this thread should be on topic without any reference to personal differences at all please. Thank you.

free skin care · Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:03 pm

Keliu wrote:

Kassy - how are you dissolving the Retinyl Palmitate and Ferulic Acid now that there's no alcohol in the formula?

I'm presuming you're buying the Retinyl Palmitate from Makingcosmetics (because I can't find it available anywhere else), their blurb says:

Description: Highly active, fat-soluble vitamin with various effects on skin. Activity 1.7 Mio IU/g. Clear, golden oily liquid, faint odor. Slightly soluble in alcohol, miscible in oils, insoluble in water. CAS# 79-81-2.

Retinyl Palmitate is also available from The Personal Formulator, Keliu. This is what they say:

Quote:

Retinyl Palmitate
INCI: Retinyl Palmitate, Zea Mays (Corn) Oil and Chlolecaliferol
Retinyl Palmitate is also known as Vitamin A Palmitate. It is used for its normalizing effect on dry skin, increases the skin elasticity and can regenerate prematurely aged skin. It is a clear, golden oily liquid with a faint odor that is slightly soluble in alcohol, miscible in oils, insoluble in water. It is used in: all kinds of skin care products (primarily regenerating, nourishing & after sun products) usually at a use level of 0.2-0.5 %.

I believe the maximum recommended loading is 0.5% not 1.0% (as was recommended in the above recipe).

free skin care · Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:41 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

18% L-AA
1% Vitamin E
.5% Ferulic Acid
2% Niacinamide
2% Licorice Root Extract
1% Retinyl Palmitate

Further to my post above, it's worrying me that this recipe does not include all the ingredients necessary for making it successfully. For starters, the base ingredient, Distilled Water, is not listed (I'm presuming it's water). And there's nothing to dissolve the FA and RP.

I think most people really need a full ingredient list and a blow by blow description on how to combine them. I would hate to think that some people might try to make this serum from just the ingredients listed above.

free skin care · Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:09 am

Further to the Niacinamide and Vitamin C debate, have just come accross this on skingeek.com:

Some notes about this niacinamide whitening and anti-acne preparation:

. only use a non acidic carrier base, such as water or a pH neutral serum
. do not use with Vitamin C products
. niacinamide works best alone without too many other active ingredients.
. boost this preparation’s whitening power with N-A-G (N-Acetyl Glucosamine) at a 1:2 (niacinamide to n-acetyl glucosamine) ratio.

http://www.skingeek.com/a-daily-niacinamide-boost-to-whiten-skin-and-keep-acne-pimples-at-bay/

I don't know what the credentials are of this person, but thought it might be of interest to note her comments here anyway. Note she also advises to use the Niacinamide in conjunction with Glucosamine - something that I see recommended allot.

From the research I've done, the general consensus of opinion appears to be to first use a Vitamin C Serum and wait for the pH to settle, then apply other serums.

Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:02 pm

Quote:

The ingredients are in there for a reason. The Vodka is there to dissolve the Ferulic Acid, so it's pointless having the Vodka without the FA. You also need the SKB to emulsify and incorporate the Jojoba Oil because oil and water don't mix.

Ok, now I am confused. I have been making this serum with LAA, Distilled H20 and Grapeseed Oil... adding the oil after the LAA dissolves. Then before I use it I shake everything together and use. Is the serum not effective with just those three ingredients...

free skin care · Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:23 pm

cjenn1 wrote:

Quote:

The ingredients are in there for a reason. The Vodka is there to dissolve the Ferulic Acid, so it's pointless having the Vodka without the FA. You also need the SKB to emulsify and incorporate the Jojoba Oil because oil and water don't mix.

Ok, now I am confused. I have been making this serum with LAA, Distilled H20 and Grapeseed Oil... adding the oil after the LAA dissolves. Then before I use it I shake everything together and use. Is the serum not effective with just those three ingredients...

I believe this was referring to the need for Vodka to dissolve the FE in that recipe
as well as something in this recipe SKB as an emulsifer, so without anything emulsifying oil and water your mixture will separate and my opinion the more often you shake any LAA mixture the more oxygen you incorporate into it (think air bubbles) the faster you cause the LAA to oxidize. A little note LAA actually begins to oxidize before the telltale yellow shows up!

IMHO
DM

Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:52 am

DarkMoon wrote:

I believe this was referring to the need for Vodka to dissolve the FE in that recipe
as well as something in this recipe SKB as an emulsifer, so without anything emulsifying oil and water your mixture will separate and my opinion the more often you shake any LAA mixture the more oxygen you incorporate into it (think air bubbles) the faster you cause the LAA to oxidize. A little note LAA actually begins to oxidize before the telltale yellow shows up!

IMHO
DM

Does that matter though if I make a new batch everyday? I never have had it turn yellow on me before....

free skin care · Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:07 am

cjenn1,

If you are making it everyday then it won't matter at all! You will be getting a fresh dose with every application! It's only an issue if it's being made for a 1-3 week supply. Smile

DM

free skin care · Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:58 pm

This had been posted on the thread earlier, but was deleted. I hope it is okay to re-post the link:

http://www.in-cosmetics.com/ExhibitorLibrary/28/Niacinamide_cosmetics_0308_2.pdf

With respect to Niacinamide stability and pH, the link says:

Quote:

Stable towards oxygen, light, heavy metals, and at a pH range of 3 to 7.5. Do not heat to more than 85C. In acidic and alkali solutions it is hydrolysed to nicotinic acid.

This information comes from Daiichi Fine Chemical Europe GMBH. It seems contrary to the information put out by many DIY websites (I am referring the the pH of 3 ... other sites use a lower boundary of 5.5 or 6.0

So I went to the source (Daiichi) and did a google translation from German of their Material Safety Data Sheet according to EU regulation 1907/2006. Apparently this document is a revised version dated 20.04.2009; the original was issued on 13.08.2008

The only reference I see to pH is under section 9.2.1 which says:

Quote:

pH - value, undiluted: na, pH - value, 10% in water: 6 - 7.5

With respect to Stability and Reactivity, section 10.2 says:

Quote:

Incompatibility: Reacts with acids, alkalis, and oxidizing agents.

I am starting to think that the 3-7.5 pH range for Niacinamide mentioned earlier was nothing more than a typo or an error in interpretation.

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