Questions about Retinol/ Vit A/ Retinyl Palmitate?
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free skin care · Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:33 pm

I did a search on the forum and there're many different posts here and there with scattered info. I'm totally confused! That's why I started another post. Embarassed

I would like to know if Retinyl Palmitate is in fact the same as Retinol. I always see this ingredient in some moisturizers half way in the list. It didn't state the % so does that mean most likely it won't be effective in the anti-aging purposes?

And also, how should I apply Retinol or those Retinyl Palmitate contained moisturizer? I heard that I should apply it to completely dry skin after 15-20mins after I cleansed my face. I'm confused as to why I have to wait that long? What's the reason behind it? So ok, after 15-20mins, I applied the Retinol...then wait another 15-20mins to apply ss, moisturizer, or makeup on top? So basically, just like when I apply my Vit C serum, is that right?

I know I might sound a bit paranoid sometimes but just would like to make sure that I'm using it the proper way so I can get the full effect. Thanks a lot!!!

free skin care · Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:59 pm

Stardustdy, I think this link will be very helpful to you, or anybody who is confused by all the variations of retinol;

http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/retinol.html

This is a great topic, with so many members using retinol products.. I'll be happy to put my 2 cents in when I'm more awake tomorrow .. Embarassed

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:28 am

Retinoids such as retinyl palmitate, retinol and retinaldehyde need to convert to retinoic acid to be an effective anti-aging ingredient.

As stated in the article from Smartskincare.com, this is the typical conversion pathway in the world of vitamin A:

Retinyl palmitate => Retinol => Retinaldehyde => Retinoic acid

As you can see, retinyl palmitate is the weakest form. You have to use a product with a very high concentration to make it effective. Products containing retinyl palmitate may give moisturizing benefits, but are most often too weak to combat and prevent signs of aging.

To get anti-aging benefits, you should go for one of these:

- An OTC product containing pure retinol in a concentration between 0.4 and 1 %. Examples: SkinCeuticals, PSF, La Roche Posay Biomedic line, Green Cream, Replenix, Afirm. All of these products have sufficient concentrations of retinol in them to be effective. If the percentage is not listed on the package, it's probably low!

- An OTC product containing retinaldehyde, which is supposedly a bit more potent than retinol. There are only a few brands to choose from. Avene is widely popular.

- A prescription strength product like Retin-A, Renova etc which contains the most potent vitamin A stuff, i.e. retinoic acid.

Stardusty, you should wait 20-30 minutes after cleansing to make sure your skin is completely dry before applying retinoids. I think it has to do with the Ph-level in your skin. You'd better wait in order to get the best results.

Smile

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:56 am

Septembergirl wrote:

Stardusty, you should wait 20-30 minutes after cleansing to make sure your skin is completely dry before applying retinoids. I think it has to do with the Ph-level in your skin. You'd better wait in order to get the best results.

Smile

I`ve read that you should wait 20-30 min after cleansing and apply retinoids on dry skin, because wet skin is more penetrable than dry skin, and applying retinoid/retinol on wet skin can increase irritation.

but as I was never irritated by Avene Eluage, I started applying it without any waiting time.
Am I doing it wrong? if it has smth to do with pH of the skin, should I wait? Confused

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:00 am

Stardustdy wrote:

And also, how should I apply Retinol or those Retinyl Palmitate contained moisturizer? I heard that I should apply it to completely dry skin after 15-20mins after I cleansed my face. I'm confused as to why I have to wait that long? What's the reason behind it? So ok, after 15-20mins, I applied the Retinol...then wait another 15-20mins to apply ss, moisturizer, or makeup on top? So basically, just like when I apply my Vit C serum, is that right?

Stardusty, a retinol product is usually applied in the p.m., because retinoids increase sun sensibility and are better used at night, so there is no makeup or sunscreen here, and if your retinol product is moisturizing enough, you don`t need a moisturizer on top either.

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:30 am

- It's recommended that Retinols be applied to a dry face to reduce irritation.

- It's recommended to use at night because UV rays inactivate it. (Once it has absorbed in 15 minutes or so, light isn't an issue though.)

- Using any Retinol product makes us much more susceptible to the damage caused by UVA + UVB rays, so sunscreen really is a must... If you aren't willing to make sunscreen a part of your everyday life, and also avoid direct sun as much as possible, you should not use Retinol products. I wouldn't recommend any Retinol products for those who enjoy a lifestyle that includes lots of sun..i.e. boating, outdoor sports, being at the beach daily, etc..

- Retin-A products work best when nothing is applied over them, period! Many people complain about the flaking/peeling (especially at first), but that in fact is how it works. In the morning, rinse with lots of warm water, then cold, then a good sloughing with a microfiber cloth, to remove the flakes... It works like a charm. For dry skin girls, applying a good rich moisturizer, high in fatty acids in the A.M. on your still damp skin will help immensely. For those who use C serum, do that first.

That's my 2 cents.. Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:45 am

thank you, Kassy! these are very helpful 2 cents Very Happy

should I give up my retinaldehyde product for the time when I`m at the seaside? (given I use sunscreen religiously)

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:48 am

Kassy_A wrote:

Many people complain about the flaking/peeling (especially at first), but that in fact is how it works.

so if I do not have flaking/peeling - it means it does not work? Confused

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:41 am

Yes, you want the flakies! They are easily removed in the morning with a microfiber cloth..

If you are using a strong Retinol/Retin-A product, you should probably not use it during a "beachy" vacation. Some folks fore-go it altogether during the summer months as well..

If you do continue to use it, just be sure to use a broad spectrum, high SPF factor sunscreen, and also make friends with a nice wide brimmed pretty hat and good sun glasses.. (That's really good advice for all of us anyhoo.. Cool

)

As soon as the skin gets acclimated to Retinol, the flaking and peeling come to a crawl.. If you aren't seeing it in the beginning, you are either not using a sufficient amount, or you have applied a moisturizer over it..

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:06 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Yes, you want the flakies! They are easily removed in the morning with a microfiber cloth..

If you are using a strong Retinol/Retin-A product, you should probably not use it during a "beachy" vacation. Some folks fore-go it altogether during the summer months as well..

If you do continue to use it, just be sure to use a broad spectrum, high SPF factor sunscreen, and also make friends with a nice wide brimmed pretty hat and good sun glasses.. (That's really good advice for all of us anyhoo.. Cool

)

As soon as the skin gets acclimated to Retinol, the flaking and peeling come to a crawl.. If you aren't seeing it in the beginning, you are either not using a sufficient amount, or you have applied a moisturizer over it..

thank you for the reply, Kassy!
I`m using Avene Eluage cream with Avene Eluage serum on top now. They both contain 0,5% retinaldehyde with added hyaluronic acid promoting penetration. I only have some minor flakies under my nose, but nowhere else.
Before Eluage I was using Avene Diacneal (0.1% retinaldehyde + glycolic acid), this is the strongest Avene retinal product, with added glycolic acid for better penetration. I`ve never had flakies with it...
I do use the products generously, also all over the neck, and do not use any moiturizer on top.

what I did notice is I have now a very even toned and healthy look, much less acne, more refined pores and softened fine lines. I`ve been using retinaldehyde products for half a year now.
so... about flakies... does it still mean that without flakies they are useless talking about anti-aging results?

I`ve ordered Retrinal 0.1%, that is the strongest concentration of retinaldehyde without glycolic acid, but I`m not inclined to using a prescription retinoid.

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:20 pm

Don't worry then... The peeling/flakiness reflects the dead skin cells drying up and being removed..

Once you've been using retinols/glycolic acids, the flakiness gets less and less.. Not to worry, it just means it's doing it's job..

- Glycolic Acid products break up the dull, dead cells for easy removal on the skins surface (the horny layer).

- Retinols penetrate deeply, and do their good at the deep cellular level.

Take a look at the link I posted above, and also read Septembergirls post.. It will clear up a lot for you.

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:37 pm

thank you

I was only worried about not having flakies either now or in the beginning.

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:40 pm

Aiva wrote:

thank you

I was only worried about not having flakies either now or in the beginning.

Keep in mind you are only 30 also Aiva, so you're normal skin turnover is still nice and active...Not so for us, ahem, older gals!

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:45 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Aiva wrote:

thank you

I was only worried about not having flakies either now or in the beginning.

Keep in mind you are only 30 also Aiva, so you're normal skin turnover is still nice and active...Not so for us, ahem, older gals!

Kassy, I`ve seen your picture in another thread and would love to look that good in my fifties!!! you look great! Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:04 pm

Aiva wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

Many people complain about the flaking/peeling (especially at first), but that in fact is how it works.

so if I do not have flaking/peeling - it means it does not work? Confused

Not everyone will have flaking with Retin A. It does not mean it is not working. Retin A works in the deeper layers of your skin. Some people just have croc hide, like me, and will not have the flaking.

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:08 pm

rileygirl wrote:

Aiva wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

Many people complain about the flaking/peeling (especially at first), but that in fact is how it works.

so if I do not have flaking/peeling - it means it does not work? Confused

Not everyone will have flaking with Retin A. It does not mean it is not working. Retin A works in the deeper layers of your skin. Some people just have croc hide, like me, and will not have the flaking.

now you have another croc with croc hide here - it`s me Laughing

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:11 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

- Retin-A products work best when nothing is applied over them, period! Many people complain about the flaking/peeling (especially at first), but that in fact is how it works. In the morning, rinse with lots of warm water, then cold, then a good sloughing with a microfiber cloth, to remove the flakes... It works like a charm.

I agree Retin-A works better when its use alone with nothing else. However, for me, I have to use something over Retin-A or under it, as I can never remove all the flakes in the morning- I do use a microfibre cloth- but it just doesnt work and the makeup looks terrible if I've not used anything with the Retin-A the night before.
I have used Retin-A for about 10 months and my skin has still gotten "used" to it

free skin care · Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:23 pm

Aiva wrote:

now you have another croc with croc hide here - it`s me Laughing

Glad to know I am not alone, Aiva!

free skin care · Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:46 pm

would this help with hyperpigmentation? I have also read on this forum somewhere about using it on stretch marks? Is that true?

free skin care · Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:40 pm

Thanks KassyA for the article. That's very informative. But it seems that site is always trying to sell u their home made ingredient thingy at the end. I was at doubt in the beginning of its resource. Anyways...

I read a lot about all this and am still slightly confused. So the reason for waiting around 15-20mins after cleansing is to balance the pH of the skin b4 applying Retinol. But what if I already used a ph balanced cleanser, do I still need to wait that long? And Retinol is to be applied at night only by itself and nothing else...so I assume no serum under & over it then? even if my skin is dry?

Also, my face is naturally flaky itself in certain areas, would Retinol help to remove those too or just make it worse? cuz I'm afraid I'll look like a shedding snake in the morning haha Laughing

I'm wondering... if I'm using the following product, a moisturizer that contains Retinyl Palmitate, do I still need to wait 15-20mins after cleansing and on bare skin as it's not an actual Retinol?? I'm confused! Embarassed

It's the Jamieson Retinol Night Treatment and it got great reviews on Makeupalley.

http://www.jamiesonlabs.com/en/products/skincare_details.aspx?GroupID=85&UPCCode=5307

and Aiva, u r using Avene Eluage. I heard that's for ppl over 35 or 40? Would it be too soon for ppl under it to use? I noticed Avene has a Yestheal which contains Retinaldehyde(sp?) 0.05% but without the Hyaluronate Acid. Which is better u think?

Sry about the long post. And thank you so much ladies for your help. I luv u all!

free skin care · Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:53 pm

Stardustdy wrote:

Thanks KassyA for the article. That's very informative. But it seems that site is always trying to sell u their home made ingredient thingy at the end. I was at doubt in the beginning of its resource.

That's funny and true, they do end every single article, with their DIY pamplets... Laughing

I got their DIY pamplet for free, by filling out a "medical" questionaire..... They also sell it for about 10 bucks I think..

Anyhoo, I found it to have a few formulating mistakes, and the recipe's ingredients were all in 'grams', so that's not so easy for 'newbie' formulators to translate into tsp..etc.

I wasn't too impressed with the recipe's either ... Crying or Very sad

Like everything else, you seldom get your money's worth... Rolling Eyes

Now to your questions;

- I believe the wait before applying retinol to your skin is so it's thoroughly dry, which will reduce irritation... I've never heard/read about a specific PH need for retinol.

- Retinols (especially Retin A), work best when nothing else is added on top.....If you have dry/flaky skin, the time to moisturize it is the 23 hours in the day before you go beddy bye.... You will do yourself a disservice, by applying a moisturizer over a retinol in MHO..... Just suck up the flaking, and use great, beneficial oils throughout the day..(Avocado, Squalane, Rose Hip etc..)

- If you are using a moisturizer that *contains* "Retinyl Palmitate", chances are it is in a minute percentage, and won't do you much good anyway, so applying an additional moisturizer probably won't make a bit of difference..

- If you really can't take the flaking, and your skin is very dry, maybe you should try "Renova"... It is formulated with moisturizer, and is supposedly gentle.. You should also check out Viterol A products (DS Laboratories) which are available here at EDS..

Hope that helped.. Confused

free skin care · Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:54 pm

Retinol vs Retin A

Many anti-wrinkle and skin rejuvenation products contain retinol, which is a form of vitamin A. Many people confuse retinol with Retin A, which is a brand of tretinoin also referred to as trans-retinoic acid or simply retinoic acid. Retinol and retinoic acid are related but distinctly different. Retinol and other forms of vitamin A, such as retinal and retinyl palmitate, do not have much direct effect on the skin. They first need to be converted by special enzymes into the active metabolite, retinoic acid. Only retinoic acid directly affects skin cells and helps reduce some signs of aging.

In theory, one should be able to apply retinol to the skin, wait till it gets converted to retinoic acid, and eventually get the known skin benefits of the latter. In reality, the conversion rate is low and varies greatly among individuals. Besides, when exposed to air either during storage or use, much retinol may get oxidized or degraded even before it can become availalbe for conversion to retinoic acid in the skin. As a result, significantly less people respond to retinol creams than to retinoic acid (tretinoin, Retin A), and the degree of response tends to be less too.

It is true that retinol products tend to have fewer side-effects than retinoic acid (tretinoin, Retin A). The reason is the same: lower biological activity of retinol due do slow conversion and, possibly, degradation. Notably, some companies have developed stabilized high-concentration retinol formulas that seem to be more effective than run-of-the-mill retinol products. However, high concentrations of retinol can be almost as irritating to the skin as retinoic acid.

Bottom line
Retinoic acid a.k.a. tretinoin (sold as Retin A, Renova and other brands) appears to provide a better shot at eliminating fine lines and reducing wrinkles than even the best retinol formulations. (Not to mention many virtually ineffective retinol products.) Tretinoin users who experience skin irritation and/or chronic peeling could try to eliminate the side effects by reducing the concentration and/or frequency of application. If that fails, a well-selected retinol product may be worth a try. Caution: neither tretinoin nor retinol should be used in the event of continuing chronic side-effects.

free skin care · Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:55 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

- It's recommended that Retinols be applied to a dry face to reduce irritation.

This is true for most retinoid products. Retin-A Micro is designed to minimize irritation because it slowly releases the active ingredient. It can be applied on wet skin immediately after cleansing.

free skin care · Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:31 am

Stardusty, yes, both Eluage and Yestheal contain 0.05% retinaldehyde.
Eluage also contains hyaluronic acid - cream 0.5%, serum 1%, which is why this line is marketed for 35-40 age group, while Yestheal - for younger people.
Hyaluronic acid is said to be added for better penetration of the active ingredient. I don`t see anything wrong in using hyaluronic acid being younger than 40 and I only welcome better penetration of retinaldehyde.
that said, you might try both lines, but there is a price difference, as Eluage is marketed as anti-aging, its price is higher.

be careful with Diacneal though, my skin was very irritated by this product.

free skin care · Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:39 am

I was unable to use Retin A--the peeling and serious irritation never let up for the three or four months I used it. My dermatologist suggested I switch to Avene's Ystheal, which I tolerated fine. After a year or so of that, I switched to Eluage. Both worked well for me but I was hoping to bump up to a higher strength product. Diacneal has double the amount of retinaldehyde and also 6% glycolic acid. When I switched to Diacneal, I alternated nights with Eluage and I got some flaking and peeling anyway. But, that was just temporary for a couple of weeks. I now use it nightly without any irritation.

If you want the highest percentage of retinaldehyde without the additional AHA, you might try Retrinal, the Avene product sold in the US in place of the Ystheal/Eluage/Diacneal lines. It comes in three strengths--.025%, .05% (like Ystheal and Eluage) and .1% (like Diacneal) but its highest strength does not have added glycolic acid.

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