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Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:14 am  |
| graceless_lady wrote: |
Thanks for posting this video clip - it looks very interesting!
Moonstone, would you say they're applying 'considerable' pressure to the four points? |
Yes, you do need to apply some pressure to those points in order to deliver results. The guy who's showing the massage is actually a famous aesthetic teacher in Japan who was the winner of the national aesthetic tournament. There is a clip in youtube showing the before/after results of him demonstrating a facial and leg massage on a woman. It's pretty interesting to watch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX6LbdHteks |
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:34 am |
| jeanleemarquis wrote: |
Hi Miranda,
Just out of curiosity, which facial exercise program are you planning on reintroducing, if not Ageless or FE?
Thanks! |
Hi Jean,
I'm going back to the Eva Fraser routine.
I had a number of one-to-one sessions with her 5 years ago (she's London-based) and although there was no 'wow' factor involved, I guess her mainly non-resistance routine just kept things in place (I was 36 when I started). I got excited and carried away with the resistance stance of Ageless and my face reacted quite quickly in the wrong way (impossible for me to move cheeks without the bulk of the movement taking place in my orbi oris).
But it just goes to show that facial exercise can make a difference to one's face - you just need to find the right one and of course, do it right!!
I will wait a while and then post some photos of my transitions. I have a pic taken in Feb, before the dermatologist got to me, where my face looks young and soft. Then there's one from July, pre-Ageless but during derma's regime, I still look soft but have ( ) lines developing and my skin felt 'thin'. Then one during Ageless showing major mouth build up, then one after I stopped (still built up but looking softer but still with ( ) lines). Hopefully the last one which I'll take round Feb time will show me going back full circle to how I looked last Feb.
Now I'm off to post on the derma rolling thread as I see this as the only way to rid me of the dreaded parentheses lines. |
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:29 pm |
| Okay, here's a bizarre idea that just occurred to me... what about using a lip plumper product in the NL line? I don't own one, unfortunately, otherwise I would try it out! It seems as though it might work... |
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Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:36 am |
For anyone who's still following this thread-- I've been doing the Tanaka massage posted by critic in the Bone facial massage thread for about 2 weeks. I have to say, it's working!!!! There's this mirror in a dark hallway of my house with horrible lighting. I can't help it-- every time I go past, I have to check & see how the lines are doing, holding my chin down to make them the shadows look as bad as possible. Where are the lines? Where did they go? They are about 75% gone, I would say. My husband claims he can't see them at all-- I see room for just a little more improvement! Critic, thank you!!!!  |
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Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:25 am |
That's brilliant news Jean!
However I've been doing the Tanaka massage for 4 weeks and haven't noticed anything good happening on the N/L front (except I'm covered in spots on the chin, upper lip & round my nose). Massage does feel good though, so I'm going to persevere. |
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Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:08 am |
Dear Miranda, I wonder why the massage is working for me and not for you? (Now I'm wondering whether I'm seeing things when I pass by that mirror in the hall!) You mentioned before in the bone facial massage thread that you had been neglecting to do the finishing move to the throat-- I've also read in the translation that in order to do the finishing move correctly, that you don't "squash" the skin on your face inwards, but keep the pressure outwards on the sides of your face as you go downwards toward your throat. That is where the lymph system resides, apparently.
Also, as you might have read from the earlier posts on this thread, I've undergone a pretty drastic change in my diet, which I feel has helped significantly (green smoothies & more green veggies). I'm continuing to do FE/Ageless as well & being careful with my technique. However, more than anything, the disappearing of my NL's are probably due to an interaction of a number of factors. (We'll try to figure out which ones!)
Please keep us updated with your progress! Hopefully we'll get rid of those NL's once and for all! |
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Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:43 am |
Hi Miranda! You mentioned earlier that you have done a roll recently. I did a roll about two months ago that caused terrible breakouts for me. I did another one a few weeks later not realizing that it was from the roll. The second time, the breakouts were much worse. I'm still healing from it. I have never in my life had breakouts this bad. They are primarily on my forehead and NLs. I have a few on my chin as well.
I had started massage two months before the roll and never had a problem. Maybe it's the combination. I'm not sure. |
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I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:28 am |
| You know Tonia, I have also been breaking out pretty badly-- I thought it was connected to a purge, moving up to .05% retin-a from .025%, or detoxing from green smoothies... but I hadn't connected it to the rolls! I didn't realize that rolling could also make you break out! It didn't seem as though anyone on the dermarolling thread was posting anything about breakouts post-roll. Good to know though in hindsight, I suppose! |
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Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:52 am |
Hi Tonia, Jean,
I'm trying to remember when I did my first facial roll but it was over 2mths ago and every roll since I hadn't had any breakouts BUT you could have a point about the combination of the two (massage & roll).
Only problem with that theory is why are they solely concentrated on round my mouth area? Why not the forehead or cheeks (my usual problem area if I'm going to get a spot or two). I've never had so many spots like this and I'm still getting new ones and they're all the same type (red with a white head).
I didn't do the collarbone move for one week but for the last 3 weeks I've been doing it - not doing it gave me spots down the sides of my face.
I'm going to do a roll and put retin A on again just to kill the blighters! |
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Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:10 pm |
Hi Miranda,
Just a guess here, but it does seem that the skin around the mouth area is generally thinner and more sensitive than the skin on the rest of the face. Perhaps there is something that you've recently introduced into your routine that would be especially irritating to this area, and yet not affect the other areas of your face? Tonia's combination theory of dermarolling + massage might make sense here-- if the needles are actually penetrating more deeply in this area since the skin is thinner, anything that you put on here will probably penetrate more deeply, or cause greater irritation, or perhaps even be more receptive to bacteria? (I remember reading on the dermaroller thread that the thickness of facial skin can vary according to specific locale.) Are you massaging with hempseed oil? Is your hempseed oil still OK? I also remember reading that hempseed oil goes bad rather quickly. (And I'm sure that you sterilized & cleaned the roller, per protocol, right?) Also, I think I remember reading that when you were first starting the massage, you were using the same oil to clean as well as massage? Perhaps the few times that this happened, this might have introduced dirt/ bacteria into your susceptible skin post dermaroll?
Anyway, I hope this might give you some ideas! I myself am *finally* recovering from my own outbreak, which I attribute to detoxing from green smoothies, and then aggravating when I switched from using avocado oil to kukui nut oil on my face, although now I'm not ruling out the dermaroller as a culprit either!
Pimples are the worst. For me, I've found that putting on a raw honey mask helps a lot (naturally occurring hydrogen peroxide & antibacterials), as does the sea kelp bioferment from SkinActives.com (I believe that Garden of Wisdom also has a similar product, but cheaper.)
It doesn't seems like a good idea to roll while you have active spots. You wouldn't want to spread the bacteria around & cause more. Perhaps just plain retin-a would be better. Hang in there! |
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Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:46 pm |
The N/L sag and/or lines is dreaded by most as we age. It is especially noticeable if you have had full cheeks and lose some as time goes by. Anyway, I have seen reduction with facial exercises but for the past month of doing the Japanese massage with the black hat lady( Tanaka)I am totally amazed  at the reduction of this problem. Seriously I can't stop checking my face in the mirror. Please folks check this out.
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5417375?fr=yvmtf
and the thread is here for the discussion...thanks to Critic for bringing this to EDS. http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=500514#500514 |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:50 am |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| I'm going to do a roll and put retin A on again just to kill the blighters! |
Does that help?!?!
If it does, I'll be rolling tonight! I can't get rid of this horrible acne. Hmmmm, maybe it is the massage afterall. It's hard to know what causes what when you start more than one thing at a time. Then again, both of my breakouts started the day after the roll.
A friend told me to be sure and use astringent every day after cleansing. That is helping some. |
_________________
I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:18 pm |
| Tonia wrote: |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| I'm going to do a roll and put retin A on again just to kill the blighters! |
Does that help?!?!
If it does, I'll be rolling tonight! I can't get rid of this horrible acne. Hmmmm, maybe it is the massage afterall. It's hard to know what causes what when you start more than one thing at a time. Then again, both of my breakouts started the day after the roll.
A friend told me to be sure and use astringent every day after cleansing. That is helping some. |
Well Retin-A is prescription only in the UK for bad acne and spots so that's why I did my 'product penetration' roll last night and put the RA with hempseed oil on after (although the first time I did this, I was strongly advised that RA is too strong for PP rolling but my skin looked great 5 days later).
However, I only read Jean's advice about rolling may spread the bacteria today 
But I have to say I haven't any new spots today (and they have been arriving daily) and the old ones are at last drying out so maybe....
I'll let you know if it all goes horribly wrong!
BTW Tonia if you have trouble with spots check out this thread...
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=34098
It has a long rave about hempseed oil which just about all of us who've since tried it, have been amazed by it. Just read the first and last pages to save time. |
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Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:57 pm |
I've been looking at Face mapping and the problem area for spots round the mouth/nose is gastro-intestinal. Could it be the green smoothies? I started drinking these about 2-3 times a week a month ago simply because I like the taste and thought it would be GOOD for my skin!!!
I was completely dismissive for it making a huge difference. Maybe not.... |
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Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:11 am |
I don't believe the green smoothies are bad for everyone, and they do have a great effect on the skin as your getting the full spectrum of nutrients from what your drinking, and its in a form that the body can assimilate easily without having to produce as much digestive enzymes as if you were eating the ingredients direct.
Initially though when people start on smoothies their body takes full opportunity to do a little detox, so the sympton of spots is not uncommon at all, and will pass over time!
| This is Miranda wrote: |
I've been looking at Face mapping and the problem area for spots round the mouth/nose is gastro-intestinal. Could it be the green smoothies? I started drinking these about 2-3 times a week a month ago simply because I like the taste and thought it would be GOOD for my skin!!!
I was completely dismissive for it making a huge difference. Maybe not.... |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:51 am |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
I don't believe the green smoothies are bad for everyone, and they do have a great effect on the skin as your getting the full spectrum of nutrients from what your drinking, and its in a form that the body can assimilate easily without having to produce as much digestive enzymes as if you were eating the ingredients direct.
Initially though when people start on smoothies their body takes full opportunity to do a little detox, so the sympton of spots is not uncommon at all, and will pass over time! |
Yes you're absolutely right. The smoothie I make is one I copied from Wholefoods called Healthy Detox. I've always eaten well and didn't need to detox, just thought why not? It tastes good, is easy to make and can only do good. I didn't realise I had so much bad stuff in me!! Spots are starting to die down now - maybe I'm over it or perhaps it's the Retin-A.
That smoothie combined with the lymph massage is lethal!!! |
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Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:41 pm |
| Miranda, I have been doing the smoothies too. It sounds like you and I have done the some of the same things at the same time. My breakouts are getting better. I've never had problems with spots before. With the Green smoothies, DR, retin-a and massage, my NL's are looking better. Now that the spots are clearing up, my skin is looking much better in general. It's much smoother than it was just a few months ago. |
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I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:49 pm |
Hi Tonia, I'm glad (read that as jealous!) to hear your spots are calming down; I've just developed two new huge ones since my post this morning. When is this going to stop??? I wouldn't mind if my NLs were improving but they're not. Also glad (as before!) to hear that yours are.
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Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:38 pm |
Miranda, a friend of mine suggested I start using an astringent every time I wash my face to help with the breakouts. I didn't want to do that because I have dry skin and I was afraid an astringent would make it worse. Well, she was right. It has helped tremendously with the breakouts. I started that a week ago and the spots have cleared up in that time. Her theory was that the massage and DR were forcing bacteria and exfoliated skin cells into my pores. The retin-a was increasing cell turn over which was making it worse. She said the astringent would clean out my pores better. Whatever the cause, the astringent has been the solution. I'm using straight witch hazel for now because I had it on hand. I may experiment with other kinds of toners/astringents when I run out. It hasn't dried out my skin either.
I also backed off of the retin a. I was using .1, 3x per week. I am now using it once a week. I hope to work my way back up, but for now, this is working better for me. |
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I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:41 am |
Yep its definitely a good one for detoxing.
When you consider the pollutants etc in our environment, air etc, its not surprising that when we start detoxing, our skin (which is the largest organ) starts purging itself of toxins, but it does go eventually.
The lymphatic massage and the detox solution might have been too powerful for your face to do all at once. With detoxs, I always think its better to start off softly. So I would really urge you with all your doing to make sure your drinking water, and do some skin body brushing (as this will also help).
| This is Miranda wrote: |
Yes you're absolutely right. The smoothie I make is one I copied from Wholefoods called Healthy Detox. I've always eaten well and didn't need to detox, just thought why not? It tastes good, is easy to make and can only do good. I didn't realise I had so much bad stuff in me!! Spots are starting to die down now - maybe I'm over it or perhaps it's the Retin-A.
That smoothie combined with the lymph massage is lethal!!! |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:21 am |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
Yep its definitely a good one for detoxing.
When you consider the pollutants etc in our environment, air etc, its not surprising that when we start detoxing, our skin (which is the largest organ) starts purging itself of toxins, but it does go eventually.
The lymphatic massage and the detox solution might have been too powerful for your face to do all at once. With detoxs, I always think its better to start off softly. So I would really urge you with all your doing to make sure your drinking water, and do some skin body brushing (as this will also help). |
I've downloaded an app for my iPhone that helps keep a tab on drinking 8 glasses of water a day. So I'm ok on the hydration front. And I have been doing body brushing for a few years although I read this technique last night (I've always done circular brushing):
"Do not scrub, massage, or rotate the brush on the body; just sweep it across the skin in long smooth strokes in the direction of the heart.
Standing unclothed, lightly stroke the brush across the top of the foot to the knee. Continue lightly stroking the entire body in long, light, smooth strokes, up the arms and legs. It is important to brush each surface only once. One stroke for the front of the lower leg, one for the inside, one for the outside and one for the back of the leg."
She doesn't explain why it's important to brush each surface only once.
Back to topic; N/L's and parentheses lines - this morning at my son's nativity play, I grinned ear to ear for 40 mins. I looked in the car mirror 10 mins later and had deep parentheses indentations.
Does anyone else get this when smiling?
So does pulling back the corners of the mouth give worse lines?
Therefore pulling in the mouth corners (pouting) will improve them?? (but give may smokers lines??) |
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Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:33 am |
Great re water Miranda.
I think the idea with brushing is sweeping motions, but I have seen and done it many times myself in circular motions, but for the limbs (legs and arms say), they usually recommend the sweeps simply for the blood and lymph, as they flow in that kind of direction. However if you have a fatty deposit area say on the inner thigh or tummy, then doing circular motions is a good way of breaking those fatty deposits up over time.
I don’t now why she is recommending only one stroke, all the texts I have read say do 3-7 strokes as a suggestion.
Re the NL lines, its not so much that its caused by muscle, but the tissue on top of that area being damaged already, which is why the expression can set in. You see children smiling all the time, but as they are young and usually healthier, when they stop their tissue is able to snap back because of that very fact. Its really about the tissue on top of those muscles. So I’m not so sure that pouting will improve the lines, but it may give them a subtle stretch which may be beneficial, but for me, its really about beefing up the tissue on top of the line itself (if that makes sense).
Sean
| This is Miranda wrote: |
I've downloaded an app for my iPhone that helps keep a tab on drinking 8 glasses of water a day. So I'm ok on the hydration front. And I have been doing body brushing for a few years although I read this technique last night (I've always done circular brushing):
"Do not scrub, massage, or rotate the brush on the body; just sweep it across the skin in long smooth strokes in the direction of the heart.
Standing unclothed, lightly stroke the brush across the top of the foot to the knee. Continue lightly stroking the entire body in long, light, smooth strokes, up the arms and legs. It is important to brush each surface only once. One stroke for the front of the lower leg, one for the inside, one for the outside and one for the back of the leg."
She doesn't explain why it's important to brush each surface only once.
Back to topic; N/L's and parentheses lines - this morning at my son's nativity play, I grinned ear to ear for 40 mins. I looked in the car mirror 10 mins later and had deep parentheses indentations.
Does anyone else get this when smiling?
So does pulling back the corners of the mouth give worse lines?
Therefore pulling in the mouth corners (pouting) will improve them?? (but give may smokers lines??) |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:36 am |
| Tonia wrote: |
| Miranda, a friend of mine suggested I start using an astringent every time I wash my face to help with the breakouts. I didn't want to do that because I have dry skin and I was afraid an astringent would make it worse. Well, she was right. It has helped tremendously with the breakouts. I started that a week ago and the spots have cleared up in that time. Her theory was that the massage and DR were forcing bacteria and exfoliated skin cells into my pores. The retin-a was increasing cell turn over which was making it worse. She said the astringent would clean out my pores better. Whatever the cause, the astringent has been the solution. I'm using straight witch hazel for now because I had it on hand. I may experiment with other kinds of toners/astringents when I run out. It hasn't dried out my skin either. |
Tonia, it's funny you should say this, I read this last night (from the same site as the body-brushing) about toners:
| annabellina website wrote: |
Here’s Why you should use a Toner:
Tone Tone Tone! Although most people are under the false impression that when they wash their face with a cleanser, their skin is completely clean, a cleanser is nothing but a SUPERFICIAL cleaner. In fact, you don't even have to use a cleanser when you have no makeup on, in the mornings for instance. All you need to use then is a toner before putting on your daytime moisturizer. Contrary to common belief, a toner is not just a skin conditioner. It is much more than that. A toner performs at least 4 very essential acts that no other skin care product on the market can do:
A Toner DEEP CLEANSES and purifies your pores, making sure that all pores are totally clear of leftover makeup, cleanser residue, dirt, dead skin cells, waste by-products, toxins and other hazardous elements. A TONER CANNOT "CLOSE" PORES AS PORES DO NOT HAVE MUSCLES CONTROLLING THEIR OPENING. Pores can only appear smaller, if deep cleansed and there's good collagen/elastin support. It’s especially important for clearing the skin of impurities found in tap water. Analyze tap water and you’ll discover fluoride, chlorine and sodium which clog the pores and are very dehydrating. If this debris is not removed, you are only forcing it deeper into your pores as your apply moisturizer on top, TRAPPING the debris that can cause bumps, blackheads, enlarged pores, improper absorption of the moisturizer, rough texture and even acne.
A Toner BALANCES the pH level or the natural acid mantel that protects your skin from the environment. Not too acid so that oxygen is not robbed from your skin. It can take your skin up to 30 minutes to rebalance itself after cleansing without using a toner because the sebaceous or oil glands are confused ~ oily skins keep pumping out oil and dry skins stop producing oil.
A Toner HYDRATES tissues for proper cell function. Skin can be oil dry and/or moisture dry and the moisture content is more crucial to skin health. A toner is a very NOURISHING form of moisture that even a moisturizer cannot provide. Not too dry, not too wet. It can take your skin up to 30 minutes to rebalance itself after cleansing without using a toner ~ oily skins keep pumping out oil on top of dehydrated skin and dry skins stop producing oil on top of dehydrated skin. Also, the environment is CONSTANTLY ROBBING your skin of hydration, especially during forced heat season and while traveling. This is why I so strongly recommend spritzing a few times a day!
A Toner assists PENETRATION of treatments and moisturizers which means complete absorption of the potent nutrients, those nutrients absorbing deeper, more effectively and evenly into your skin. In essence and without getting too technical, the derivatives in non-alcohol toners help moisturizers work deeper and more effectively than it would other wise be able. So if you truly are interested in seeing results from your serums and moisturizer, tone before using them. Its one simple step that takes no more than 60-120 seconds and it makes a world of difference. Just try it a few times and you will see results!
Water is not a toner! If you mist your face with any kind of water (deionized, filtered, mineral, spring), when it starts to dry and evaporate, it will dry out your skin!
A Toner also sets mineral makeup, misting after application makes a very soft and set makeup. Especially with some of the mineral makeups that can look almost dry, the hydrosols finish off the application with a hydrating setting action that allows the makeup to feel moist without any shine.
So if anyone tells you that a toner is not an important part of your skin care regimen, then they are not a trained or skilled skin care professional! This means they do not understand the physiology of your skin, proper skin health, or what your skin truly needs.
How To Tone: make sure the toner is acetone, alcohol and benzoyl peroxide free, even if you have oily skin. In fact, alcohol on oily skin will increase the oil because it's a STIMULANT. None of my products contain alcohol! Make sure to tone your skin thoroughly at least twice a day, morning and evening, before applying your serum or moisturizer.
During the summer months when the air pollution is at its worst, try to tone 3 times a day if possible. For best results think “spray and wipe”. Spritz you face to rehydrate. Follow by dampening cotton pads with toner. Concentrate on troubled areas and don't let your skin air dry. Those tingly toners evaporating off the top of your skin is robbing your skin’s precious moisture. Instead, apply moisturizer to damp skin, this helps soften debris in the pores and hydrates the skin. Lightly wet a cotton with toner and begin cleaning your skin gently, one small section at a time. Never try using the same cotton all over the skin in one single try.
Start with your forehead, especially at the hairline where it is most neglected during cleansing. After cleaning the forehead, look at the cotton, if you see makeup or any other discoloration on the cotton, get new cotton and tone the same section again. REPEAT this step until the cotton comes away perfectly clean, free of any residue and pore debris. Then start with the next section. Perform this procedure from the hairline all the way to the décolleté. The reason you should not stop at the face is because throughout the day when you are busy running around, your body temperature rises and this causes your makeup to run. In fact, on warm days if you tone the upper part of your chest, you will find some of your morning makeup there as well. So if this thin skinned area has little bumps, then your décolleté needs the same deep cleansing.
...NOW you have clean skin! |
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Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:42 am |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
Re the NL lines, its not so much that its caused by muscle, but the tissue on top of that area being damaged already, which is why the expression can set in. You see children smiling all the time, but as they are young and usually healthier, when they stop their tissue is able to snap back because of that very fact. Its really about the tissue on top of those muscles. So I’m not so sure that pouting will improve the lines, but it may give them a subtle stretch which may be beneficial, but for me, its really about beefing up the tissue on top of the line itself (if that makes sense).
Sean |
Of course Sean, that makes total sense to me. You're spot on. My ( ) lines only appeared after the misguided dermatologist stripped my skin of it's epidermis. So yes, I guess now when I smile the skin on top is damaged so it doesn't ping back into place.
Ok all you geniuses out there.... how do we cure that?? |
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:24 am |
Hi Miranda,
Sounds like you're on the right track to eradicating the () lines with the dermaroller, based on the theory that it's the thin, damaged skin that is causing their appearance. Have you seen any improvement since starting up with the dermaroller? |
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