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Tue May 04, 2010 10:11 am  |
| Hermosa wrote: |
Good points, Rick. I think Pickart has made himself/his family particularly vulnerable by being the de facto spokesperson for his line whereas most cosmeceuticals are marketed by faceless corporations.
They all make claims, some of them more outrageous than others. As I said before, most of us are immune to that kind of puffery.
I differentiate Pickart from most of the others because I don't think he is trying to scam us -- he does believe in his products (scientific proof or otherwise). If CPs don't work for you, don't use them, and if they do work, well, then you're anecdotal evidence of the efficacy of CPs! |
I concur.
Dr. Pickart does what he does with a spirit of integrity. He believes in his product - This seems to supercede the almighty dollar that is the Hallmark of other companies' motivation.
Also: I'm so glad for my *anecdotal evidence*. Just added in Premier eyes and taking pictures. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue May 04, 2010 10:15 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
Ok so I'm having some fun now. This advertising blurb is from a very preliminary search of April's US Elle magazine:
Kinerase
Targets elastin to firm skin's structure. Only Kinerase Restructure Firming Cream combines clinically proven anti-aging ingredient Kinetin with innovative technologies for a new way to visible strengthen skin's structure. By targeting elastin, this formula goes beyond stimulating collagen production to provide noticeably firmer skin in just 4 weeks.
Kinerase Skincare by Valeant Pharmaceuticals has over twenty years experience in dermatological science.
Neutrogena Clinical
After years of research and 10 new technology patents, Neutrogena introduces Clinical Skin Care - built on the science of boosting skin's collagen production. It's patented ion2complex combines with the activating cream to create a gentle microcurrent that reawakens collagen depleted skin. Instantly skin feels soft and smooth and in 4 weeks, you'll see visibly reduced wrinkles and a firmer, more uplifted look. Activate it today to set beautiful results in motion.
StriVectin
Overnight Facial Resurfacing Serum gently and effectively corrects multiple surface signs of aging while you sleep. Remove dull dry flakes, visibly diminish pores and wrinkles, brighten skin tone, improve luminosity. You rest, let StriVectin to all the work, and wake up to skin that's smooth, soft, perfect! Try new Instant Moisture Repair! Our breakthrough, clinically-proven daily moisturizing treatment.
Clinique
The power to even skin tone with results equal to a leading prescription ingredient. New Clinique Even Better Clinical Dark Spot Corrector. Dermatologist-developed to be safe, comfortable. Yet in clinical trials our serum was comparable to a leading prescription ingredient in creating a more even skin tone. A verified 53% improvement in skin tone........................................... And results are guaranteed. |
Yep...and hopefully the clinical trials are for THOSE products and the SAME purpose as what they are selling the products for. But again, larger companies have more people looking over their shoulders and they have a lot to lose if they use "creative interpretation."
Interestingly, so many companies are focusing on clinical trial results these days that it leads one to believe that the majority of people actually CARE about clinicals. But we can see from here on EDS that testimonials trump clinicals for most. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue May 04, 2010 11:45 am |
it's really not that pure and simple if, as a result of no warnings accompanying his products about potential damage and less-than-kosher advertisements of their proposed and "scientifically-proven" effects, one experiences near-permanent damage from cps.
we have reiterated this idea throughout this thread. i only wish my experience with cps was as pure and simple as throwing the little green bottle away along with my $40. instead, my skin aged 10+ years in six months, and although the quality of my skin has more or less returned, the little saggy parts and large pores are with me now forever.
--avalange
| RickR wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
But is Pickart being fair to consumers when he manipulates data in order to sell a product? Nope. .
| m1rox wrote: |
| OK we have to be fair to Dr. Pickart but is Dr. Pickart being fair to the consumers? How about those people whose skin had bad side effects from using the CPs? I think some of the comments he made about them and to them were a bit unfair as well. |
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Ok Here is how I see it. I personally use Skin Biology's copper peptides and I think they worked for me from day one, and I was lucky not to suffer any uglies. I have been able to fend off wrinkles to some extent, perhaps due to the peptides.
That does not mean it will work for everyone. Nothing - even the most researched medicines work for everyone. There will be people who will tolerate aspirin those that won't.
And then there is the question of what one's expectations are. I am in my 40s. I would like to like I am in my 30s perhaps...but it would be unrealistic for me to expect to look like I am in my early 20s by using ANY PRODUCT.
Although the Peptides seem to be working for me, I am concerned about the lack of definitive studies regarding the new Copper Peptides.
Having said that, Skin Biology does not put a gun to anyone's head. Nor do they send junk emails or post irritating internet pop up ads or late night TV spots making outrageous claims.
I bet many people in our country, including members of this forum (including myself) have purchased (and will continue to purchase) stuff like Goji, Noni, Mangosteen or some exotic type of thing or herbal concoction or capsule(many of them from dubious sources) to cure a number of ailments (both real and imaginary) and to look younger and thinner.
We spend billions of dollars every year on herbal supplements - and these herbal products are the most unregulated products out there. We don't bother questioning the validity of the claims made about these supplements or whether or not the powder in the capsule is ground up grass or the real thing.
Many of us have bought stuff from Kevin Trudeau (self proclaimed ex-con man and convicted felon). If anyone has read his two books, both books are garbage ramblings of material cut and pasted from numerous sources...yet both books became national bestsellers.
Look at Perricone. His sells $500 creams and in just a few years, his company has become a multi million dollar company. He claims to be associated with Yale university, but he was in an unpaid associate position there and he was basically kicked out after he made outrageous claims about inflammation and aging.
Compared to that, Dr Pickart keeps a much lower profile. His company is a small, boutique type of company that does not engage in "in your face" type of media campaigns.
His products are less expensive than most of the other questionable products out there.
And, at least he has the academic credentials and the research experience to make some claims.
In contrast, who is Kevin Trudueau? Why did people flock like sheep to buy his dubious products for years, and then when he was shut down by the authorities, he made another few million by selling his books..... Kevin Trudeau is a convicted credit card felon who has no credentials...
If Pickart's products don't work for you, and if you don't like his claims, stop using the products. Pure and simple.
I think we should discuss the validity of Pickart's claims, but what I am seeing here is personal attacks on his integrity, and now his family is being dragged into this discussion.
I question the research on the second generation Peptides like most of you, but I would trust Pickart more than the Perricones and the Trudeaus or the other pitchers out there who send me junk email and pollute my TV and computer screen.
Just remember...Pickart is a small company selling products thru word of mouth. There is no gun to your head and there are no junk emails and countless TV and internet ads. If his products don't work for you, don't use them. |
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_________________
http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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Tue May 04, 2010 12:42 pm |
| avalange wrote: |
it's really not that pure and simple if, as a result of no warnings accompanying his products about potential damage and less-than-kosher advertisements of their proposed and "scientifically-proven" effects, one experiences near-permanent damage from cps.
we have reiterated this idea throughout this thread. i only wish my experience with cps was as pure and simple as throwing the little green bottle away along with my $40. instead, my skin aged 10+ years in six months, and although the quality of my skin has more or less returned, the little saggy parts and large pores are with me now forever.
--avalange |
I feel your pain...  I gave "CP Serum" (2 drops mixed with 7 drops of water 2 or 3 X wk only) a shot for about 6 months... I didn't really see anything negative or positive in all this time, but now when I look in the mag mirror, I'm seeing enlarged pores on my cheeks and slackness around the NL and lower cheek area. (Granted, I am 60 so it could just be the hands of time catching up, but I honestly don't think that's the case.)
What really pisses me off is that I was led to believe when I purchased, that this was the mildest copper peptide product, so in my ignorance on the subject, I thought it was GHK-Cu and didn't do any research on it. (What a jerk..  ).
I don't like the idea that this particular active is looking like nothing more than an experiment for developing a more stable product, and I should have had a clue when I questioned a completely different color in my 2nd sample, and was told something like; "don't worry, Dr P is always tweaking the formula, it's fine".
Sorry to veer off topic, but I wanted others to know 'Avalange' is not alone, and I'm experiencing the very same symptoms as she has shared.
I'm very happy that so many are having great results from CP products, but as with all things in life, one size does not fit all. |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue May 04, 2010 12:45 pm |
It's interesting. Obviously there is a very positive effect on some people w/ CP's. But I have never heard of a product with so many adverse effects as copper. Usually, a product either works, works a little bit, or doesn't work at all. (and making your skin worse in not typically an end result).
So in that respect, perhaps he *should* put some type of disclaimer in his product info, saying that some people have reported adverse effects.
In reality, I'm sure he will never do this. So..consumer beware, or be aware, and read everything you can before you start a CP venture. It's very helpful when users report their results, both positive and negative. |
_________________
42, have used tretinoin since age 18! Replenix CF serum and eye cream, RAMicro, Glytone 2 lotion every other day |
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Tue May 04, 2010 1:08 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| angel06 wrote: |
| So, what do you guys think of MLAB skin care products? I just started using it and now I'm kind of scared that it could damage my skin. I know it has a lot of peptides in it. |
Angel, we are not talking about peptides in general...just copper peptides. |
I see. That's good to know. Thanks.  |
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Tue May 04, 2010 1:29 pm |
Avalange~ I have very much valued you sharing your experience with CP's. It's the reason I've been using it slowly & carefully. We need to hear all sides and I'm so sorry your experience was such a negative one!
At this point for me I can't say one way or another, other than my skin seems more hydrated. |
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Tue May 04, 2010 3:06 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
Ok so I'm having some fun now. This advertising blurb is from a very preliminary search of April's US Elle magazine:
Kinerase
Targets elastin to firm skin's structure. Only Kinerase Restructure Firming Cream combines clinically proven anti-aging ingredient Kinetin with innovative technologies for a new way to visible strengthen skin's structure. By targeting elastin, this formula goes beyond stimulating collagen production to provide noticeably firmer skin in just 4 weeks.
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I always say that saying that a cream is "clinically proven" is comparable to saying that you're buying eggs from "free run"/"cage free" chickens.
Both terms are not regulated. So I can have 1o chickens piled on top of the other in a 1ft. x 1ft. space and I can claim they're "free run" :S
"Clinically proven" doesn't mean anything. If you ever used aquaphor, you would notice that if you put it overnight, your skin starts looking smoother and less wrinkled (until you start getting breakouts at least!). Your lips look fuller.
However... does aquaphor do anything for collagen? Nope. All it does is retain a lot of moisture which "plumps" the skin, makes it look firmer. Because there's more water, also your scars and hyperpigmentation look better... it's like a miracle!
So even though aquaphor does nothing for skin aging per se, it could say "clinically proven to reduce wrinkles, improve the appearance of skin and firmness". Even if just one person in the whole world experiences that, they still can say it!
So to say that something is "clinically proven" is meaningless.
In fact, any cream that you think that gives you this kind of amazing improvement in a short time is due to "plumping". Retin-A, which is the gold standard and the cream that increases collagen production the most, takes 6 months of use to show changes due to collagen production.
So then all other creams who stimulate collagen less cannot possibly be doing results in a week or a month due to collagen production.
Nothing wrong with the plumping though, but customers need to be aware of the difference. |
_________________
37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Tue May 04, 2010 3:35 pm |
| Josee wrote: |
In fact, any cream that you think that gives you this kind of amazing improvement in a short time is due to "plumping". Retin-A, which is the gold standard and the cream that increases collagen production the most, takes 6 months of use to show changes due to collagen production.
So then all other creams who stimulate collagen less cannot possibly be doing results in a week or a month due to collagen production.
Nothing wrong with the plumping though, but customers need to be aware of the difference. |
Very interesting...thanks for that reminder! |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue May 04, 2010 4:21 pm |
| Di wrote: |
| m1rox wrote: |
| I think that unless one has adequate funds and resources (eg the commercial companies), it is difficult to conduct a good trial. 5 people would be too small a sample size. You need to follow-up a large group of people and compare with matched controls who do not use the product. The copper peptides are not a "drug" so it would be difficult to justify activating the machinery to conduct such a trial. Unless Dr. Pickart would pick up the towel and do so to substantiate his claims. |
I see on Drugstore.com they have Neutrogena Ageless Intensive Firming Moisture spf 20 with Copper Tripeptide in the ingredients. |
They seem to have renamed the line with copper. It used to be called Visibly Firm rather than Ageless Intensive. The serum was supposed to have the highest concentrations of the copper. |
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Tue May 04, 2010 4:23 pm |
Josee - I agree. I believe the "clinically proven" blurb in all of the ads means nothing because as I've pointed out before cosmetics are not regulated in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Retin-A, on the other hand, has been shown to improve wrinkles in six months through concrete medical trials.
Which leads me to my next question - if it takes Retin-A six months to "undo" damage from wrinkling, how long does it actually take for wrinkling to form? IMHO it takes years for wrinkles to develop (the aging process). So what I'm trying to get at here is - is it medically possible for wrinkles to form after using CPs for only a short period of time.
Avalange - I don't mean to challenge your experience with CPs as such. To you, your disaster with CPs was very real. However, you have posted your photo on the Forum in the past - and all I can say is that you are the most extraordinary beautiful young women with (what looks to me) perfect skin. Do you have photos of the actual damage CPs caused?
I know this will probably get me in trouble but I always have difficulty in understanding the sudden disasters and miracle improvements that many on this Forum have. Nothing ever happens to me! Nothing good, nothing bad - I just continue to slide into old age one day at a time. I've never woken up in the morning to see a new batch of wrinkles, nor have I ever seen any disappear - they just keep creeping up on me - slowly. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 04, 2010 4:34 pm |
Keliu, you made my day 
I posted pics of the damage. of course it was very noticeable to me and a few of my skin-conscious friends, but probably not to the general population!
it's just demoralizing when we spend time trying to take measures to keep our skin looking great, and a product basically accelerates the aging process in six months.
i'm happy with my skin now, and I just want to say, that I'm aware that cps work really well for some people, and i don;t think my experience challenges that of anyone who is a cp devotee!
i just think the product should come with a list of risks and warnings, so potential customers can be more informed about the product.
--avalange
| Keliu wrote: |
Josee - I agree. I believe the "clinically proven" blurb in all of the ads means nothing because as I've pointed out before cosmetics are not regulated in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Retin-A, on the other hand, has been shown to improve wrinkles in six months through concrete medical trials.
Which leads me to my next question - if it takes Retin-A six months to "undo" damage from wrinkling, how long does it actually take for wrinkling to form? IMHO it takes years for wrinkles to develop (the aging process). So what I'm trying to get at here is - is it medically possible for wrinkles to form after using CPs for only a short period of time.
Avalange - I don't mean to challenge your experience with CPs as such. To you, your disaster with CPs was very real. However, you have posted your photo on the Forum in the past - and all I can say is that you are the most extraordinary beautiful young women with (what looks to me) perfect skin. Do you have photos of the actual damage CPs caused?
I know this will probably get me in trouble but I always have difficulty in understanding the sudden disasters and miracle improvements that many on this Forum have. Nothing ever happens to me! Nothing good, nothing bad - I just continue to slide into old age one day at a time. I've never woken up in the morning to see a new batch of wrinkles, nor have I ever seen any disappear - they just keep creeping up on me - slowly. |
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_________________
http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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Tue May 04, 2010 4:59 pm |
| avalange wrote: |
Keliu, you made my day
I posted pics of the damage. of course it was very noticeable to me and a few of my skin-conscious friends, but probably not to the general population! |
Well I'm just telling it like it is! We are all our own worst critics and often see flaws that, to others, are invisible. Plus, when we use all these gadgets and spend a fortune on creams that promise the earth, we convince ourselves that we can see miracles happening.
But I am very interested in seeing what actual CP damage looks like. Sometimes, I think much of it is just hyperpigmentation showing up from the exfoliation used with CPs.
I also think there's an enormous difference in the skin issues of someone in their 30s to someone who is over 50 (where hormonal issues come into play). |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 04, 2010 5:02 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
Which leads me to my next question - if it takes Retin-A six months to "undo" damage from wrinkling, how long does it actually take for wrinkling to form? IMHO it takes years for wrinkles to develop (the aging process). So what I'm trying to get at here is - is it medically possible for wrinkles to form after using CPs for only a short period of time. |
Sadly the case is that it takes more time to heal something than to destroy it  Still things take time.
I think the same principle applies to CPs as with other creams. I don't think that people that experience sagging or "uglies" with copper peptides (even the lasting ones) do it because suddenly CPs caused an explosion of their collagen.
I think the effect is probably due to the product causing sensitization in some patients and causing barrier disfunction (and anti-plumping effect ) . The thing is that if people continue doing it because they're told "it just damage coming up" you can establish a vicious cycle of cytokine secretion - barrier disfunction that basically would make your skin look dry and wrinkled though not because collagen suddenly got destroyed. But if you don't do anything to stop the cycle then yes, I would think that eventually collagen can be reduced due to the the chronic subclinical inflammation and then you'd actually end up looking older even if you stopped the CPs.
I also think that this is not unique to CPs. A lot of creams and procedures have "inflammation" (or even "destruction" in the case of peels) as a side effect. So there is a delicate balance between how much inflammation (which can cause collagen destruction) can one have without having an overall collagen destruction or establishing some kind of chronic subclinical dermatitis (which would also lead to skin aging). |
_________________
37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Tue May 04, 2010 5:09 pm |
| Josee wrote: |
| But if you don't do anything to stop the cycle then yes, I would think that eventually the chronic inflammation would make you look somewhat older after 6 months. |
But this is the thing. If you look at the reports of people with "The Uglies" they are usually complaining of wrinkling and sagging, not chronic inflammation. With Retin-A, many people complain of inflammation, but not of wrinkling and sagging. Inflammation makes sense to me - it's your body telling you it doesn't like something. But I still can't see how you can develop "sudden" wrinkling and sagging (which is loss of elastin). |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 04, 2010 5:23 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Nothing ever happens to me! Nothing good, nothing bad - I just continue to slide into old age one day at a time. I've never woken up in the morning to see a new batch of wrinkles, nor have I ever seen any disappear - they just keep creeping up on me - slowly. |
LOL. I am sorry to laugh, but I am right there with you - nothing good, nothing bad, just nothing!  |
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Tue May 04, 2010 5:24 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Josee wrote: |
| But if you don't do anything to stop the cycle then yes, I would think that eventually the chronic inflammation would make you look somewhat older after 6 months. |
But this is the thing. If you look at the reports of people with "The Uglies" they are usually complaining of wrinkling and sagging, not chronic inflammation. With Retin-A, many people complain of inflammation, but not of wrinkling and sagging. Inflammation makes sense to me - it's your body telling you it doesn't like something. But I still can't see how you can develop "sudden" wrinkling and sagging (which is loss of elastin). |
Apparent wrinkling and sagging can result from many things, including skin dehydration (e.g. skin barrier disfunction) and inflammation. The inflammation doesn't need to be a "clinical" inflammation but it can be subclinical. For e.g. when people do a dermarolling (not the hard core one but the little one) cause a controlled little inflammation that then with the actives, etc, etc. in theory might increase collagen. So that is a controlled inflammation that you don't really see but it's there and it apparently doesn't cause long-lasting damage.
I don't think that if you use CPs for a month your wrinkling and sagging can be due to sudden collagen or elastin damage unless CPs have this huge effect which I don't see possible due to the in vitro studies (btw sagging does not occur only with elastin damage. Elastosis which is the accumulation of elastin on the skin, is partly responsible for the sagging due to photodamage).
I really think it must have to do with skin dehydration or something similar.
Now, how then do we explain that people then stop using it and still have damage? I then think that they had a particular reaction that created that vicious cycle (which is what happens with chronic eczema) just in a more subtle level. In the end that little chronic subclinical inflammation can end up destroying collagen. Even if it doesn't end up destroying collagen, sometimes the barrier function takes time to get better after chronic insults.
BTW these are my wild "clinically proven" theories  |
_________________
37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Tue May 04, 2010 5:43 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Nothing ever happens to me! Nothing good, nothing bad - I just continue to slide into old age one day at a time. I've never woken up in the morning to see a new batch of wrinkles, nor have I ever seen any disappear - they just keep creeping up on me - slowly. |
LOL. I am sorry to laugh, but I am right there with you - nothing good, nothing bad, just nothing! |
Ditto and Ditto, I'm beginning to look as old as my friend Gandolf!! |
_________________
The best way to locate your cat is to open a can of food. |
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Tue May 04, 2010 6:06 pm |
Like Keliu and Riley,very few products have worked for me.But I will say between 55 and 60 alot of change takes place in the face and other areas more so than earlier years.I didn't wake up one morning with alot of wrinkles.
BTW Keliu I love the vaculifter,that along with with the AALS has improved my lip lines a great deal.Thanks for the suggestion,it has been worth it. |
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Wed May 05, 2010 10:59 am |
I've been using skinbiology's CPs and LacSal for a year now. I've noticed that one scar reduced about fifty-percent. I've also been dermarolling once a month for six months. My skin hasn't gotten worse and I've noticed subtle changes in the skin under my eyes and on the backs of my hands.
I got the sagging chicken skin at one point but stopped CPs for a week and it self-corrected. I've noticed melasma on my neck coming and going. Pickart said it is the hidden damage coming up and flaking off, which is what seems to be happening. I used to use hydroquinone for years and maybe that just suppresses the damage. I don't know.
I never expected a quick fix and intend on doing this current regime for another year and then see. By then, maybe something else will have been invented that's even better. At least skin biology's stuff is reasonably priced. |
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Thu May 06, 2010 10:37 pm |
| Star Model wrote: |
From Dr. Pickart:
There are many histological pictures in the article that is referenced onwww.skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html.
Copper Peptide and Skin, M.B. Finkley, Y. Appa, S. Bhandarkar, Cosmeceuticals and Active Cosmetic, 2nd Edition (ISBN: 0-8247-4239-7),
2005, pp 549-563.
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I finally had the time to take another look at the article.
The article has a total of 2 histological pictures + 3 ultrasound pics.
There also good and bad news about the article
Before anything keep in mind that the article describes a little more the unpublished trial done by and funded by Neutrogena corporation.
The trial: 67 women put either a GHK-Cu cream or placebo for 12 weeks.
The good: clinical inspection of the skin (i.e. someone looking at the skin) showed that women using the GHK-Cu cream had, compared to placebo, a larger improvement in overall appearance, laxity, clarigy, fine lines, mottled hyperpigmentation and coarse wrinkles.
The bad:
- Study design: We don't know if the placebo was just exactly the same as the GHK-Cu cream (minus the GHK-Cu) or if if was something else
- Statistics: They used the ANOVA Fisher's LSD test which is a not recommended test because it does not controlled for type I error well (i.e. you might conclude that the difference is significant when in reality is not... like a false negative kind of thing). I have absolutely no idea why would anyone use this test.
- Objective variables: On top of the more subjective "skin appearance", they had 2 more objective values... They measured skin firmness using a ballistometer and they did an ultrasound of skin to measure skin density. There was no significant difference in the ultrasound and ballistometer measurementes between placebo and the GHK-Cu cream.
- Another measurement was digital images. Since they don't mention that it was better than placebo I guess we can assume it wasn't.
There is something else that I found very interesting. You know that people tend to think... "well... if GHK-CU (a particular copper peptide) does all these wonderful things, then by extension any kind of copper peptide will be great!". So people have started marketing other copper peptides and cite GHK-Cu papers to prove their point. Well this paper asserts that all the biological activities are exclusive to a particular sequence of aminoacids. It says that the sequence His-Lys (i.e. HK) and the lys side chain is essential for its biological function. So it would seem that the result from this particular peptide might not apply to other copper peptides. |
_________________
37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Sun May 09, 2010 4:41 pm |
| Quote: |
it's really not that pure and simple if, as a result of no warnings accompanying his products about potential damage and less-than-kosher advertisements of their proposed and "scientifically-proven" effects, one experiences near-permanent damage from cps.
we have reiterated this idea throughout this thread. i only wish my experience with cps was as pure and simple as throwing the little green bottle away along with my $40. instead, my skin aged 10+ years in six months, and although the quality of my skin has more or less returned, the little saggy parts and large pores are with me now forever.
--avalange |
I'd like to add my voice here to agree with Avalange's experience.
I am about the same age, and experienced big pores with multiple tiny lines, slacking and sagging, by using Dr Pickart copper peptides. In fact my skin looked a lot like the close up pic that Avalange posted.
My skin is now much improved (although the slackening on the neck is still there and the skin not 100% back to normal). It took a long time and a lot of TLC - coming up to 2 years. It was stressful because I didn't know if my skin ever would recover at all.
I mistrust the Dr Pickart company in general, because when we try to complain about the damage caused, or post on the Skin Biology forum that a product is having a negative effect, the post is deleted or (as in my case) we are treated impolitely by their customer service.
It seems like they are not interested in the actual results for the customer, but more interested in selling products. For some people the products seem to help - but for others, they cause deep & long lasting damage, and Skin Biology are not warning people about this. |
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Mon May 10, 2010 10:48 am |
| Did you follow the instructions to start slowly using the weakest CPs first and gradually build up strength? Did you use a strong acid at night as is recommended? That's usually why people seem to have those types of reactions. |
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Mon May 10, 2010 10:58 am |
In reply to Softskin -
Yes, I built up slowly & used acids as recommended by Skin Biology.
The fault is in the products. |
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| Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:25 pm |
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