 |
 |
| Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:38 am  |
It's *cute*...but hardly does it outshine Kinetin. I can cough up the invitro on Kinetin, but then we get the in vivo arguments going on.And...we do have the clinical trials. So ...not shabby. And...the double bonus of stability in formulation.
Lotusesther. Soy isoflavones are a mixed bag...some data particularly with regards to ingestion for menopausal women has drawn a big ZERO...pretty dismal actually. Bio availability is quite low [ and they smell]...however...there is a bright side.
Genistein[ one of the main active components of the above mentioned soy] @ 80mcg/ml...is quite interesting.
However...the downside...you probably won't notice anything unless using it long term.
As far as extracts go though...there is some rather delightful info on , yak meat tenderizer..more robust than the Tunisian variant.  |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:53 am |
@ DragoN: the fun part of DIY skin care when you already look like something dr Awass dug up from the desert sands is, you can experiment freely without fear of making things worse. So I am undergoing my own in vivo genistein/daidzain experiment with red clover extracts. The greatest fun of that is, that I came across it when researching a druidic recipe for a rejuvenation potion, it's local, I can get it as fresh as I want and, and, and the estrogenic activity of it has been demonstrated in real live sheep! The only point to note is, there are many kinds of isoflavones, the two that have been identified in soy may or may not be the ones that do the most....
(which is also my problem with cytokines. There are many kinds, and a lot of them don't just act locally. IMO it needs a LOT of research and trials before you actually know what you are putting on your skin and what the risks are. This apart from the point that I personally have a problem with anything faking inflammation to induce rejuvenation after a certain age). |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:07 pm |
I wonder if Dr. Fernandes is aware of this research, these ingredients are also featured in his product line as well.
BFG |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:23 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I wonder if Dr. Fernandes is aware of this research, these ingredients are also featured in his product line as well.
BFG |
I did not get to read the entire article (lost internet for a while) but are you talking about the pill? I find it logical and intriguing, however me being me I do wonder about long term effects on a systemic level. Your thoughts BF???? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:23 pm |
BFG...sounds not dis similar to eating an antioxidant rich diet.
This is Firefox's domain
There is no Fountain of Youth in a cheap plastic bottle, but ....yes...you can induce changes and improvements. How much? Will depend on the severity to begin with, lifestyle , Sun exposure...whole host of variables.
Lotusesther....the info on genistein is really fascinating and brings to light the effect of soy long term in the diet on Asians as well as the known racial and genetic variations. Still...it has shown to be effective.
But is it THE cure to aging? No. It's part of the puzzle...nothing more nor less and possibly worth a shot as part of a good solid formulation and regime. |
|
|
|
|
 |
Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:26 pm |
What's in an anti-wrinkle capsule?
The concept behind "gene foods" is to put back into modern diets the ingredients from berries, nuts and fruits that were abundant in the food of our hunter-gatherer ancestors. Evidence is mounting that many of these ingredients have profound effects on master genes that keep tissue and organs healthy, reducing inflammation and damage.
Unilever's blend includes isoflavones from soya. These activate oestrogen receptors that trigger the skin to make collagen Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology, DOI: 10.1016/s0273-2300(03)00091-6). Another ingredient in the capsules is omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids taken from fish oil, which activate a master gene called PPAR that is also involved in collagen synthesis (Journal of Lipid Research, DOI: 10.1194/jlr.m800614-jlr200).
The other ingredients are vitamin E, vitamin C and lycopene, all known to promote tissue health. "We put them all together in a single product, and there are about a dozen genetic mechanisms at work," says Casey.
Preliminary results from Unilever suggest that activating the master genes raises the activity of several other genes that make proteins vital for good skin tone, such as elastin, decorin and several anti-inflammatory molecules.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128314.300-first-antiwrinkle-pill-shows-signs-of-success.html?page=2
It sounds very interesting, BFG. I think food can help in the skin care department (especially since they were looking at women of "a certain age").
You mean you use these ingredients topically, right BFG? Are you thinking because they work internally they will work topically?
I actually was just talking to Dr. Fernandes on the subject of sunscreens, and he likes to focus on antioxidants (supplements/food, lycopene - tomato product, etc, etc) for sun protection. I am sure he is aware of the research. That man looks incredible for his age, IMO, so I would definitely listen to his ideas/thoughts on any subject involving aging and skin. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:15 pm |
Hi,
What I meant was these same ingredients that we use topically and via foods in the diet, are now also being administered via a specific oral supplement - and test results show anti-aging effects!
On some level, I realize it sounds like it should be obvious, but the fact that they chose these specific ingredients in this combination shows something - and the product is targeted toward older women.
BFG - it would be interesting to see if any of the online suppliers attempt to formulate their own |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:24 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
@ DragoN: the fun part of DIY skin care when you already look like something dr Awass dug up from the desert sands is, you can experiment freely without fear of making things worse. So I am undergoing my own in vivo genistein/daidzain experiment with red clover extracts. The greatest fun of that is, that I came across it when researching a druidic recipe for a rejuvenation potion, it's local, I can get it as fresh as I want and, and, and the estrogenic activity of it has been demonstrated in real live sheep! The only point to note is, there are many kinds of isoflavones, the two that have been identified in soy may or may not be the ones that do the most....
(which is also my problem with cytokines. There are many kinds, and a lot of them don't just act locally. IMO it needs a LOT of research and trials before you actually know what you are putting on your skin and what the risks are. This apart from the point that I personally have a problem with anything faking inflammation to induce rejuvenation after a certain age). |
Good point Lotusesther! There are inflammatory and anti-inflammatory cytokine cascades. And there are individual cytokines that are undesirables, and others that are potential cures for cancer. You need to know where they got them, how they got them, how they filter/sort/package them, and you surely don;t want one or two unbalanced by a natural blend. (yes, I said natural - these guys are as natural as it gets). |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:26 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Hi,
What I meant was these same ingredients that we use topically and via foods in the diet, are now also being administered via a specific oral supplement - and test results show anti-aging effects!
On some level, I realize it sounds like it should be obvious, but the fact that they chose these specific ingredients in this combination shows something - and the product is targeted toward older women.
BFG - it would be interesting to see if any of the online suppliers attempt to formulate their own |
What makes this different than whole food supplements, I take both a green and red (berries and fruits)one, as well as having all these fruits and veggies in my diet? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:44 pm |
| It sort of sounds like one of those food supplements you get 'to alleviate the symptoms of menopause'. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:55 pm |
Dr J, cascades being the operative word here. Adding a few cytokines of which you know they work only in a specific area sounds nice and safe - but the cytokines produced in the ensuing cascade may not be so local or safe in their action.
A body response as if there is an inflammation going on is not just a local affair. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:02 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
It's *cute*...but hardly does it outshine Kinetin. I can cough up the invitro on Kinetin, but then we get the in vivo arguments going on.And...we do have the clinical trials. So ...not shabby. And...the double bonus of stability in formulation.
Lotusesther. Soy isoflavones are a mixed bag...some data particularly with regards to ingestion for menopausal women has drawn a big ZERO...pretty dismal actually. Bio availability is quite low [ and they smell]...however...there is a bright side.
Genistein[ one of the main active components of the above mentioned soy] @ 80mcg/ml...is quite interesting.
However...the downside...you probably won't notice anything unless using it long term.
As far as extracts go though...there is some rather delightful info on , yak meat tenderizer..more robust than the Tunisian variant. |
Let me state again, I am a big fan of Yak Meat Tenderizer.
DragoN and I debated soy isoflavones over at SCT recently. I'll give you my synopsis of evidence.
First, consider only isoflavone fraction. You remove the rest of the soy proteins. The isoflavones don't smell. And they can be un-ionized, liposomized or nanoparticulated, and absorbed. And they do work on skin.
So let's answer these questions ...
WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?*
DOES IT SHOW CLINICAL SIGNIFICANCE?*
Antioxidant effects
• By raising cellular GSH content (p<0.05) and GST activity (p<0.05),
decreasing H2O2 formation (p<0.05), and preventing DNA degradation
(p<0.01).
Sharma S, Sultana S. Modulatory effect of
soy isoflavones on biochemical alterations
mediated by TPA in mouse skin model.
Food Chem Toxicol. 2004;42:1669–1675.
Phytoestrogen effect
• Couples with estrogen receptors in the cell’s nucleus.104 Therefore may
have a similar potential to retard skin thinning and collagen loss
comparable to topical estrogen formulas
Seiberg M, Paine C, Sharlow E, et al.
Inhibition of melanosome transfer results
in skin lightening. J Invest Dermatol.
2000;115:162–167.
Increases collagen synthesis
• One study demonstrated in vitro that genistein was able to increase
collagen (COL1A2) gene expression in human fibroblasts.112
• One study showed genistein was able to stimulate collagen levels in
human dermal fibroblasts.
Südel KM, Venzke K, Mielke H, et al. Novel
aspects of intrinisc and extrinsic aging of
human skin: beneficial effects of soy
extract. Photochem Photobiol. 2005;81:
581–587.
Increases glycosaminoglycans (GAG)
• Increases levels of GAG, specifically hyaluronic acid, in aging skin.
Ghersetich I, Lotti T, Campanile G,
Grappone C, Dini G. Hyaluronic acid in
cutaneous intrinsic aging. Int J Dermatol.
1994;33(2):119–122.
Schachtschabel D, Freudenstein G.
[Decreased stimulation of hyaluronic acid
synthesis by PDGF, IGF-I or serum in the
aging process of skin fibroblasts in vitro].
Z Gerontol. 1994;27(3):177–181.
A few abstracts of note
Int J Mol Sci. 2010;11(12):4782-95.
Anti-photoaging effects of soy isoflavone extract (aglycone and acetylglucoside form) from soybean cake.
Soy isoflavones, found in soybean and soybean products, have been reported to possess many physiological activities such as antioxidant activity, inhibition of cancer cell proliferation, reduction of cardiovascular risk, prevention of osteoporosis and alleviation of postmenopausal syndrome. In our previous study, soy isoflavone extract ISO-1 (containing 12 soy isoflavones) from soybean cake was demonstrated to prevent skin damage caused by UVB exposure. In this study, soy isoflavone extract from soybean cake was further purified and evaluated for the protective effects on UVB-induced damage. The results revealed that Fraction 3, which contains the aglycone group (daidzein, genistein and glycitein) and acetylglucoside group (acetyldaidzin, acetylgenistin and acetylglycitin) of soy isoflavones, could inhibit UVB-induced death of human keratinocytes and reduce the level of desquamation, transepidermal water loss (TEWL), erythema and epidermal thickness in mouse skin. Furthermore, topical application of Fraction 3 increased the activity of catalase and suppressed cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2) and proliferating cell nuclear antigen (PCNA) expression in mice exposed to UVB. In addition, in comparison with ISO-1 and genistein, the Fraction 3 possessed much greater protective effects on both UVB-induced oxidative stress and keratinocyte death than other fractions. Therefore, the soy isoflavone extract Fraction 3 from soybean cake is a desirable anti-photoaging agent for skin care.
Effects of isoflavones on the skin of postmenopausal women: a pilot study.
OBJECTIVE:
The aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of isoflavones on the skin of postmenopausal women.
DESIGN:
A prospective study was performed with 30 postmenopausal women before and immediately after the end of treatment with 100 mg/day of an isoflavones-rich, concentrated soy extract for six months. A skin punch was performed in the gluteal region for sample collection before and immediately after the treatment program. Morphometric determination of epidermal thickness, the papillary index (wrinkling), and the amount of dermal elastic and collagen fibers was assessed. In addition, the number of blood vessels in the sample was also evaluated. The paired Student's t-test was used for statistical analysis (P < 0.05).
RESULTS:
Isoflavone treatment resulted in a 9.46% increase in the thickness of the epidermis in 23 patients. In addition, the papillary index was reduced in 21 women. The papillary index was inversely proportional to skin wrinkling, i.e., there were a large number of papillae after treatment. The amount of collagen in the dermis was increased in 25 women (86.2%). In 22 women (75.8%) we observed that the number of elastic fibers increased. The number of dermal blood vessels was significantly increased in 21 women.
CONCLUSION:
Our data show that the use of a concentrated, isoflavone-rich soy extract during six consecutive months caused significant increases in epithelial thickness, the number of elastic and collagen fibers, as well as the blood vessels.
Carcinogenesis. 2006 Aug;27(8)1627-35.
Photoprotective effect of isoflavone genistein on ultraviolet B-induced pyrimidine dimer formation and PCNA expression in human reconstituted skin and its implications in dermatology and prevention of cutaneous carcinogenesis.
Moore JO, Wang Y, Stebbins WG, Gao D, Zhou X, Phelps R, Lebwohl M, Wei H.
Department of Dermatology, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, NY, USA.
Abstract
Genistein, the most abundant isoflavone of the soy derived phytoestrogen compounds, is a potent antioxidant and inhibitor of tyrosine kinase. We previously reported the antiphotocarcinogenic effects of genistein in SKH-1 murine skin, including its capacity for scavenging reactive oxygen species, inhibiting photodynamic DNA damage and downregulating UVB(ultra violet B)-induced signal transduction cascades in carcinogenesis. In this study we elucidate genistein's photoprotective efficacy within the context of full thickness human reconstituted skin relative to acute challenges with ultraviolet-B irradiation. Skin samples were pre-treated with three concentrations of genistein (10, 20 and 50 microM) 1 h prior to UVB radiation at 20 and 60 mJ/cm2. Proliferating cell nuclear antigen (PCNA) and pyrimidine dimer (PD) expression profiles were localized using immunohistochemical analysis on paraffin embedded samples 6 and 12 h post UVB exposure. Genistein dose dependently preserved cutaneous proliferation and repair mechanics at 20 and 60 mJ/cm2, as evidenced by the preservation of proliferating cell populations with increasing genistein concentrations and noticeable paucity in PCNA immunoreactivity in the absence of genistein. Genistein inhibited UV-induced DNA damage, evaluated with PD immunohistochemical expression profiles, demonstrated an inverse relationship with increasing topical genistein concentrations. Irradiation at 20 and 60 mJ/cm2 substantially induced PD formation in the absence of genistein, and a dose dependent inhibition of UVB-induced PD formation was observed relative to increasing genistein concentrations. Collectively all genistein pre-treated samples demonstrated appreciable histologic architectural preservation when compared with untreated specimens. These findings represent a critical link between our animal and cell culture studies with those of human skin and represent the first characterization of the dynamic alterations of UV-induced DNA damage and proliferating cell populations relative to pretreatment with genistein in human reconstituted skin. The implications of our findings serve as compelling validation to our conclusions that genistein may serve as a potent chemopreventive agent against photocarcinogenesis.
Because nobody likes a wrinkled rat:
Br J Pharmacol. 2012 Feb;165(4):994-1005.
Genistein aglycone, a soy-derived isoflavone, improves skin changes induced by ovariectomy in rats.
Polito F, Marini H, Bitto A, Irrera N, Vaccaro M, Adamo EB, Micali A, Squadrito F, Minutoli L, Altavilla D.
Source
Department of Biochemical, Physiological and Nutritional Sciences, Section of Physiology and Human Nutrition, University of Messina, Messina, Italy Department of Clinical and Experimental Medicine and Pharmacology, Section of Pharmacology, University of Messina, Messina, Italy Department of Territorial Social Medicine, Section of Dermatology, University of Messina, Messina, Italy Department of Biomorphology and Biotechnologies, University of Messina, Messina, Italy.
Abstract
BACKGROUND AND PURPOSE Ovariectomy accelerates age-related skin changes as adequate oestrogen levels are required to control structural integrity and functional capacity of skin. Genistein, a soy-derived isoflavone, has been tested in anti-ageing cosmetic preparations with interesting results on skin elasticity, photoaging and skin cancer prevention. We investigated the effects of genistein aglycone and compared them with systemic raloxifene hydrochloride and 17-α-ethinyloestradiol on skin changes in aged, ovariectomized (OVX) rats. EXPERIMENTAL APPROACH Six months after ovariectomy, rats were randomly allocated to different groups and treated, daily, with genistein aglycone (1 and 10 mg•kg(-1) s.c.), raloxifene hydrochloride (0.05 and 0.5 mg•kg(-1) s.c.) or 17-α-ethinyloestradiol (0.003 and 0.03 mg•kg(-1) s.c.) for 12 weeks. Controls were untreated OVX and sham OVX rats. At the end of the treatment period, a skin biopsy was carried out and skin samples were assessed for molecular, histological and functional changes. KEY RESULTS Skin samples of untreated OVX rats showed a decrease in TGF-β1, VEGF, MMP-2, MMP-9, tissue inhibitor of metalloproteinase (TIMP)-1 and TIMP-2 compared with sham OVX rats. All the treatments significantly restored this depressed molecular profile revealed in OVX rats. Genistein aglycone, 1 mg•kg(-1) , also significantly increased the thickness of collagen and breaking strength of skin in the OVX rats. CONCLUSIONS AND IMPLICATIONS Relatively long-term, systemic treatment with genistein aglycone shows comparable efficacy to oestrogen in reversing some molecular, histological and functional changes of the skin associated with ovariectomy in aged rats. This suggests that genistein aglycone might be an effective alternative therapy for the management of age-related skin changes in postmenopausal women.
Arch Dermatol Res. 2010 Mar;302(2):71-83.
Skin photoprotection by natural polyphenols: anti-inflammatory, antioxidant and DNA repair mechanisms.
Nichols JA, Katiyar SK.
Department of Dermatology, University of Alabama at Birmingham, 1670 University Boulevard, Volker Hall 557, PO Box 202, Birmingham, AL 35294, USA.
Abstract
Epidemiological, clinical and laboratory studies have implicated solar ultraviolet (UV) radiation in various skin diseases including, premature aging of the skin and melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancers. Chronic UV radiation exposure-induced skin diseases or skin disorders are caused by the excessive induction of inflammation, oxidative stress and DNA damage, etc. The use of chemopreventive agents, such as plant polyphenols, to inhibit these events in UV-exposed skin is gaining attention. Chemoprevention refers to the use of agents that can inhibit, reverse or retard the process of these harmful events in the UV-exposed skin. A wide variety of polyphenols or phytochemicals, most of which are dietary supplements, have been reported to possess substantial skin photoprotective effects. This review article summarizes the photoprotective effects of some selected polyphenols, such as green tea polyphenols, grape seed proanthocyanidins, resveratrol, silymarin and genistein, on UV-induced skin inflammation, oxidative stress and DNA damage, etc., with a focus on mechanisms underlying the photoprotective effects of these polyphenols. The laboratory studies conducted in animal models suggest that these polyphenols have the ability to protect the skin from the adverse effects of UV radiation, including the risk of skin cancers. It is suggested that polyphenols may favorably supplement sunscreens protection, and may be useful for skin diseases associated with solar UV radiation-induced inflammation, oxidative stress and DNA damage.
Here is a pretty good monograph from skinceuticals:
http://www.skinceuticals.com/_us/_en/science/download/Soy.pdf |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:25 pm |
I've looked at this before. Makes sense, but not a whole lot. The ingredients are right for increasing collagen production (add some stem cytokines if you really want to amp it up).
I always ask "if it is good for skin, why not just put it directly on the skin, and eat a healthy diet too? They like to say "if you put in on the skin it won't get to the dermis". I say "you don't know about penetration technologies, do you?". I can pretty much guarantee a higher concentration reaching the dermis of your face via liposome/nanosome-ized dermal delivery than by oral delivery (mouth-gut-absorption-liver-circulation-used by all tissues-a little left over for your face).
I use these ingredients in my dermatologic products as well. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:29 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
Dr J, cascades being the operative word here. Adding a few cytokines of which you know they work only in a specific area sounds nice and safe - but the cytokines produced in the ensuing cascade may not be so local or safe in their action.
A body response as if there is an inflammation going on is not just a local affair. |
The kind of cytokines we are talking about are paracrines, so locally acting. In the quantities required for receptor stimulation of dermal fibroblasts & etc. not likely to be absorbed, and tyhey were they would be in such minute quantity it would be like a drop in the ocean. Feed the proteases. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:30 pm |
| But, you do want to of course do clinical trials and in vitro studies to make sure you are doing the right thing. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:54 pm |
| OK, let's assume your daily pea sized amount in itself does not contain so much cytokine it will get into the bloodstream to tell your body something big is being infected. But you smear it every day. And every day the cascade is put into action. After a while your body will be in a constant mode of fighting chronic inflammation, getting signals that whatever your body is trying, it's no good and inflammation persists. Please explain to me how this could have a rejuvenating effect on anything? |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:56 pm |
| And have you considered interaction with chronic afflictions like reumatic diseases? Or other possible auto-immune diseases? |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:40 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
| As far as extracts go though...there is some rather delightful info on , yak meat tenderizer..more robust than the Tunisian variant. |
Ginger Root Extract? Please many into a natural approach also use it for digestive distress and headaches. I know I have and in those quantities I worry as much as using fresh Ginger in a recipe. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:57 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Hi,
What I meant was these same ingredients that we use topically and via foods in the diet, are now also being administered via a specific oral supplement - and test results show anti-aging effects!
On some level, I realize it sounds like it should be obvious, but the fact that they chose these specific ingredients in this combination shows something - and the product is targeted toward older women.
BFG - it would be interesting to see if any of the online suppliers attempt to formulate their own |
I don't get this. Does this mean that even if you get these ingredients in the food you eat you would still get additional benefits from taking this supplement? |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:01 am |
Ok, back to the antioxidants for a moment,
I think we're all saying that benefits don't need to come from one route of administration vs. another. Why not both? and yes, the big question is do we need a pill in addition to consuming through the diet? all good questions to be answered.
One anecdotal report from someone who already consumes these ingredients in abundance and reports wrinkle reduction"
"It was a happy coincidence. Turns out what's good for building/replenishing brain/nervous tissue is also good for building/replenishing epithelial tissue!"
BFG
ps - I think I might try to find some "food grade" lycopene for my green smoothie. |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:08 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Ok, back to the antioxidants for a moment,
I think we're all saying that benefits don't need to come from one route of administration vs. another. Why not both? and yes, the big question is do we need a pill in addition to consuming through the diet? all good questions to be answered.
One anecdotal report from someone who already consumes these ingredients in abundance and reports wrinkle reduction"
"It was a happy coincidence. Turns out what's good for building/replenishing brain/nervous tissue is also good for building/replenishing epithelial tissue!"
BFG
ps - I think I might try to find some "food grade" lycopene for my green smoothie. |
I totally agree BFG, I think topical application, a great diet as well as supplementation is a "cover all bases" approach to all around health, which would IMHO shine through on ones skin.
As far as food grade Lycopene there are many sources, here is one if you are looking online.
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/food-grade-lycopene.html |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
|
|
|
|
Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:18 am |
I have a theory and it goes like this...I think that compounding my own oil based serum - using fat soluble vitamins and antioxidants - and using a product penetration dermaroller to get the serum down to the lower layers (as well as using as a post-deeper roll serum - may be just as effective as other more expensive treatments employing still to be proven devices or topicals.
and yet, in the meantime, my mind remains open to proven topicals and oral supplements - and I will consider them as my budget allows.
For me, I just can't use my wallet to vote on products with limited evidence. Other people of course make other choices - this is just me.
I hope DrJ continues posting and answers the questions a few boxes up.
BFG |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:37 am |
If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.
Click Here to join our community.
If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site. |
|
 |
|
|
