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Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:18 am  |
| Puzzles me too as I have found the cream on the internet. On what is the assumption that the actives are not present at clinical levels based? |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:44 am |
| foxe wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
I use Retin A Micro .04% 5-7 days per week. I think just putting the Vitamin A on my skin twice per day was too much for my particular skin. I have normal skin but I can see someone with oily skin not having a problem using retinol in the morning and then Retin A at night. It's also possible that someone else with normal skin wouldn't have a problem either. I'm just saying that was my experience. The accelerator made my skin taut as soon as I put it on so I knew it just was a product that just wasn't meant for me. |
I thought the instructions were to use the Cellese 2X/day - no? Would it not cause issues if used that way AND then also using a retinoid in the PM?
Dr J - I use a .1% |
Yes, the standard is 2x/day but built in flexibility based on individual factors and current product usage.
If you are a long time (adapted) user of VitA you may want to back off on the accelerator at night as did jom. Or you can see if the retinol in Accelerator keeps you in the same zone. Everyone's skin is different. A little experimentation will usually lead to the best regimen for you. |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:11 am |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Conditions may be more favorable for some types of repair at night (or simply in the dark) since there is less going on, but the same process are going on during the day as well. I want to see repair actives working 24/7. A lot of natural repair mechanisms are active during the day. We should take our cue from nature.
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Dr. J, is it really a good idea to put actives on both day and night-shouldn't we give our skin a break from actives sometimes? And, are there different "levels" of actives. For example, would Retin A and BM-MSC be classified as high levels of actives (or the "most" active), are they in the same class? How would you classify active ingredients in terms of most active to least active? For example, you have retinol and soy isoflavones. Isn't the real "high" active ingredient the retinol and the mosre soothing less active ingredient the soy. As I'm typing this I'm thinking that maybe it depends on how you define active. Anyway, hopefully you get the gist of what I'm asking. Any thoughts? This is what I'm thinking of in terms of high to low actives starting with the highest (I'm just calling them high and low maybe there's another name for them):
Tretonin
Retinalhyde
Retinol
L-ascorbic acid
AHA's (just in general they can probably have a highest to lowest too)
Peptides
Niacinamide
Antioxidants (including all vitamins except A & C, yerba mate, soy isoflavones, coffeeberry, green tea, etc)
Not sure where BM-MSC fits in there.
I guess I'm just thinking that there are some actives that are more acidic (the high level ones) and some that are more soothing and is it a good idea to use all high level actives at one time of day and all more soothing actives another time of day or is it good to use high level actives both times of day to keep the juices flowing?
Do we ever want to give our skin a break and use a good basic moisturizer without any high level actives in it? Like EL ANR |
One key thing with cytokines is to maintain an anti-inflammatory (vs inflammatory) profile. Maybe that's what you mean by "soothing". We hear that term a lot. By doing so, we think we are preventing the "high turnover" actives from becoming irritating, which would signal inflammation, which is counterproductive (leads to wrong kind of "healing" which translate to rejuvenation. The concept of skin "taking a break" really only makes sense to me if we wanted to tame inflammation. Otherwise, skin cells & fibroblasts are happiest when they are active (I do cell psychiatry on the side). Really, you should see these guys in culture. A happy cell is a spindly lean mean fighting machine, metabolizing away, sucking up nutrients, making new proteins. A cell in retreat is a plump cell no longer dividing (lost interest in reproduction). Fat, lazy, sleepy cells. Even stem cells can get that way, as they lose their "stemness". Think about youth vs old age, and apply it to skin cells. My cells in the lab never sleep. Do you want your heart cells to sleep? Your liver cells? Of course not. Why your skin cells? |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:30 am |
This new line sounds amazing, any more results to report?
I must admit trying to read all the science has been a hat trick (much less understanding it  ), its on so many different threads now, its taken me 3 days to find and finally get through all of it. Its pretty impressive to read it all, so thanks for all your hard work (everyone)!!! Incase anyone else is as confused as I have been, I am posting the title to the threads , hope this helps others who are interested in all this: (perhaps a wiser member can post the links, I am not sure how to do this)
1. ISCO Stemcell: Lifeline Skincare - skincare forum
2. Cellese AnteAGE System - skincare forum
3. Ingredient Spotlight: Renovage/teprenone & EGG - skincare forum
4. Let's Make a List/Name that Fantastic Active - skincare forum
5. DNA Repair - Do we need it? skincare forum
Can't wait to hear more on results! |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:37 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DragoN wrote: |
@ Jom
Honestly?
Kitchen sink of actives at well below sub clinically effective levels |
Dragon, I am curious how you know the actives are well below sub clinical levels? I mean what gives that away? When looking at Dr J's formula, it also looks like a kitchen sink of actives that (if we didn't know by him telling us) would look well below clinical levels, right? So, how can you tell when actives are not in a product at the right levels? |
Excellent question, I'm curious too. And, it costs $125. |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:45 am |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Conditions may be more favorable for some types of repair at night (or simply in the dark) since there is less going on, but the same process are going on during the day as well. I want to see repair actives working 24/7. A lot of natural repair mechanisms are active during the day. We should take our cue from nature.
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Dr. J, is it really a good idea to put actives on both day and night-shouldn't we give our skin a break from actives sometimes? And, are there different "levels" of actives. For example, would Retin A and BM-MSC be classified as high levels of actives (or the "most" active), are they in the same class? How would you classify active ingredients in terms of most active to least active? For example, you have retinol and soy isoflavones. Isn't the real "high" active ingredient the retinol and the mosre soothing less active ingredient the soy. As I'm typing this I'm thinking that maybe it depends on how you define active. Anyway, hopefully you get the gist of what I'm asking. Any thoughts? This is what I'm thinking of in terms of high to low actives starting with the highest (I'm just calling them high and low maybe there's another name for them):
Tretonin
Retinalhyde
Retinol
L-ascorbic acid
AHA's (just in general they can probably have a highest to lowest too)
Peptides
Niacinamide
Antioxidants (including all vitamins except A & C, yerba mate, soy isoflavones, coffeeberry, green tea, etc)
Not sure where BM-MSC fits in there.
I guess I'm just thinking that there are some actives that are more acidic (the high level ones) and some that are more soothing and is it a good idea to use all high level actives at one time of day and all more soothing actives another time of day or is it good to use high level actives both times of day to keep the juices flowing?
Do we ever want to give our skin a break and use a good basic moisturizer without any high level actives in it? Like EL ANR |
One key thing with cytokines is to maintain an anti-inflammatory (vs inflammatory) profile. Maybe that's what you mean by "soothing". We hear that term a lot. By doing so, we think we are preventing the "high turnover" actives from becoming irritating, which would signal inflammation, which is counterproductive (leads to wrong kind of "healing" which translate to rejuvenation. The concept of skin "taking a break" really only makes sense to me if we wanted to tame inflammation. Otherwise, skin cells & fibroblasts are happiest when they are active (I do cell psychiatry on the side). Really, you should see these guys in culture. A happy cell is a spindly lean mean fighting machine, metabolizing away, sucking up nutrients, making new proteins. A cell in retreat is a plump cell no longer dividing (lost interest in reproduction). Fat, lazy, sleepy cells. Even stem cells can get that way, as they lose their "stemness". Think about youth vs old age, and apply it to skin cells. My cells in the lab never sleep. Do you want your heart cells to sleep? Your liver cells? Of course not. Why your skin cells? |
Excellent answer, thanks. What do you think of my hierarchy of actives? Would you say that they are ranked from high turnover to low turnover and where does BM-MSC fit in there? Thanks |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:31 am |
| jom wrote: |
Dr.J and DragoN, What do you think of this moisturizer?
Water (Aqua), Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Squalane, Butylene Glycol, Diglycerin, Dimethicone, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Glycerin, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Isopropyl Isostearate, Hexanoyl Dipeptide-3 Norleucine Acetate, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-5, Ceramide 2, Dipalmitoyl Hydroxyproline, Hydroxyphenyl Propamidobenzoic Acid, Epilobium Angustifolium Flower/Leaf/Stem Extract, Sodium Hyaluronate, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Glucosamine HCl, Bambusa Vulgaris Extract, Pisum Sativum (Pea) Extract, Soy Isoflavones, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Ursolic Acid, Ilomastat, Ubiquinone, Tocopheryl Acetate, Tocopherol, Panthenol, Olea Europaea (Olive) Leaf Extract, Camellia Oleifera (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Lycium Barbarum (Goji) Fruit Extract, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Silica Dimethyl Silylate, Tribehenin, PEG-10 Rapeseed Sterol, Pentylene Glycol , Ceteareth-20, Steareth-2, Lecithin, Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Aminomethyl Propanol, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Ethylparaben, Fragrance. |
As a moisturizer ? -- really hard for me to read that (not being a formulation chemist). But quite a few familiar emollients & oils & emulsifier . Nice list of actives too, including some of my favorites, although a couple key ones missing (like stem cytokines). Who makes it? What's it cost? |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:46 am |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Conditions may be more favorable for some types of repair at night (or simply in the dark) since there is less going on, but the same process are going on during the day as well. I want to see repair actives working 24/7. A lot of natural repair mechanisms are active during the day. We should take our cue from nature.
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Dr. J, is it really a good idea to put actives on both day and night-shouldn't we give our skin a break from actives sometimes? And, are there different "levels" of actives. For example, would Retin A and BM-MSC be classified as high levels of actives (or the "most" active), are they in the same class? How would you classify active ingredients in terms of most active to least active? For example, you have retinol and soy isoflavones. Isn't the real "high" active ingredient the retinol and the mosre soothing less active ingredient the soy. As I'm typing this I'm thinking that maybe it depends on how you define active. Anyway, hopefully you get the gist of what I'm asking. Any thoughts? This is what I'm thinking of in terms of high to low actives starting with the highest (I'm just calling them high and low maybe there's another name for them):
Tretonin
Retinalhyde
Retinol
L-ascorbic acid
AHA's (just in general they can probably have a highest to lowest too)
Peptides
Niacinamide
Antioxidants (including all vitamins except A & C, yerba mate, soy isoflavones, coffeeberry, green tea, etc)
Not sure where BM-MSC fits in there.
I guess I'm just thinking that there are some actives that are more acidic (the high level ones) and some that are more soothing and is it a good idea to use all high level actives at one time of day and all more soothing actives another time of day or is it good to use high level actives both times of day to keep the juices flowing?
Do we ever want to give our skin a break and use a good basic moisturizer without any high level actives in it? Like EL ANR |
One key thing with cytokines is to maintain an anti-inflammatory (vs inflammatory) profile. Maybe that's what you mean by "soothing". We hear that term a lot. By doing so, we think we are preventing the "high turnover" actives from becoming irritating, which would signal inflammation, which is counterproductive (leads to wrong kind of "healing" which translate to rejuvenation. The concept of skin "taking a break" really only makes sense to me if we wanted to tame inflammation. Otherwise, skin cells & fibroblasts are happiest when they are active (I do cell psychiatry on the side). Really, you should see these guys in culture. A happy cell is a spindly lean mean fighting machine, metabolizing away, sucking up nutrients, making new proteins. A cell in retreat is a plump cell no longer dividing (lost interest in reproduction). Fat, lazy, sleepy cells. Even stem cells can get that way, as they lose their "stemness". Think about youth vs old age, and apply it to skin cells. My cells in the lab never sleep. Do you want your heart cells to sleep? Your liver cells? Of course not. Why your skin cells? |
Excellent answer, thanks. What do you think of my hierarchy of actives? Would you say that they are ranked from high turnover to low turnover and where does BM-MSC fit in there? Thanks |
Great list. New studies suggest retinols should be on same line as tretinoin in terms of net efficacy, just takes longer to ramp, but also less irritation.
AHA's are great, but really hard to mix with anything else. I like high tech peels , working on one.
I would move niacinamide up the list.
Peptides - depends which ones. Some have evidence, some are useless for anything but marketing purposes.
Isoflavones need to move up because they contribute a lot more than justt antioxidant. Where did that thread go?
Vit E should be somewhere on the list. Maybe D too.
I'm like you in that I tend to lump all the antioxidants together (at least the botanicals) because they start to look alike, and we may be overdosing on them anyway. Not sure I trust OREC as a measure of intracellular antiox capacity either.
jom: Not sure where BM-MSC fits in there.
Here's the cool thing about just the right mix of cytokines. Very "active" yet "soothing" at the same time. Like a fine tuned MBZ 600SL purring at 1200 RPM. Sorry thats a guy thing. Not that I am confessing to being a guy or anything.  |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:37 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
Dr.J and DragoN, What do you think of this moisturizer?
Water (Aqua), Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Squalane, Butylene Glycol, Diglycerin, Dimethicone, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Glycerin, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Isopropyl Isostearate, Hexanoyl Dipeptide-3 Norleucine Acetate, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-5, Ceramide 2, Dipalmitoyl Hydroxyproline, Hydroxyphenyl Propamidobenzoic Acid, Epilobium Angustifolium Flower/Leaf/Stem Extract, Sodium Hyaluronate, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Glucosamine HCl, Bambusa Vulgaris Extract, Pisum Sativum (Pea) Extract, Soy Isoflavones, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Ursolic Acid, Ilomastat, Ubiquinone, Tocopheryl Acetate, Tocopherol, Panthenol, Olea Europaea (Olive) Leaf Extract, Camellia Oleifera (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Lycium Barbarum (Goji) Fruit Extract, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Silica Dimethyl Silylate, Tribehenin, PEG-10 Rapeseed Sterol, Pentylene Glycol , Ceteareth-20, Steareth-2, Lecithin, Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Aminomethyl Propanol, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Ethylparaben, Fragrance. |
As a moisturizer ? -- really hard for me to read that (not being a formulation chemist). But quite a few familiar emollients & oils & emulsifier . Nice list of actives too, including some of my favorites, although a couple key ones missing (like stem cytokines). Who makes it? What's it cost? |
This is the product:
http://www.mlaskincare.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=power-cream
What do you think of this brand?
Would it be possible for you to ask your formulator his opinion? |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:47 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
AHA's are great, but really hard to mix with anything else. I like high tech peels , working on one.
Not that I am confessing to being a guy or anything. |
Is your high-tech peel going to be for consumers or is it a professional product?
I can tell by your big ego (and rico-suaveness in certain situations) that you're a guy!  |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:32 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
AHA's are great, but really hard to mix with anything else. I like high tech peels , working on one.
Not that I am confessing to being a guy or anything. |
Is your high-tech peel going to be for consumers or is it a professional product?
I can tell by your big ego (and rico-suaveness in certain situations) that you're a guy! |
Would still love to see that picture of him in a string bikini! |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:21 pm |
hey, has anyone received samples yet? I ordered mine last week.. keep checking the mailbox.  |
_________________
42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:35 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DragoN wrote: |
@ Jom
Honestly?
Kitchen sink of actives at well below sub clinically effective levels |
Dragon, I am curious how you know the actives are well below sub clinical levels? I mean what gives that away? When looking at Dr J's formula, it also looks like a kitchen sink of actives that (if we didn't know by him telling us) would look well below clinical levels, right? So, how can you tell when actives are not in a product at the right levels? |
Excellent question, I'm curious too. And, it costs $125. |
I feel as if we've reached a point where if it doesn't contain cytokines or if it's not DIYed by Dragon, then it's useless - along with the science behind it!
I'm also interested in this concept of DIY cytokines. I understand that they must be delivered by some kind of liposomal delivery system - is this going to be made available in DIY form also? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:20 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
Dr.J and DragoN, What do you think of this moisturizer?
Water (Aqua), Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Squalane, Butylene Glycol, Diglycerin, Dimethicone, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Glycerin, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Isopropyl Isostearate, Hexanoyl Dipeptide-3 Norleucine Acetate, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-5, Ceramide 2, Dipalmitoyl Hydroxyproline, Hydroxyphenyl Propamidobenzoic Acid, Epilobium Angustifolium Flower/Leaf/Stem Extract, Sodium Hyaluronate, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Glucosamine HCl, Bambusa Vulgaris Extract, Pisum Sativum (Pea) Extract, Soy Isoflavones, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Ursolic Acid, Ilomastat, Ubiquinone, Tocopheryl Acetate, Tocopherol, Panthenol, Olea Europaea (Olive) Leaf Extract, Camellia Oleifera (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Lycium Barbarum (Goji) Fruit Extract, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Silica Dimethyl Silylate, Tribehenin, PEG-10 Rapeseed Sterol, Pentylene Glycol , Ceteareth-20, Steareth-2, Lecithin, Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Aminomethyl Propanol, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Ethylparaben, Fragrance. |
As a moisturizer ? -- really hard for me to read that (not being a formulation chemist). But quite a few familiar emollients & oils & emulsifier . Nice list of actives too, including some of my favorites, although a couple key ones missing (like stem cytokines). Who makes it? What's it cost? |
| DragoN wrote: |
@ Jom
Honestly?
Kitchen sink of actives at well below sub clinically effective levels, bolloxed together in a silicon feel good cross polymer mess.
Probably charging 60-75 US for it due to the cacophony of peptides.
If you held a gun to my head and forced a choice between that and EL? I would DIY it for better effect. |
Especially with Jom & Riley in mind..
The ingredient list quoted is from the MLA Skincare line developed by Dr Mary Lee American, who is a board certified dermatoloagist. This particular product is called "MLA Power Cream". The cost is $125. (US) for 1.70oz
The line uses a proprietary "Perfect 9 Complex" of ingredients in all products, with each also containing specific ingredients beneficial for different skin needs.
Read more here:
http://www.mlaskincare.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=perfectnineingredients&Store_Code=mlaskincare
"Future Derm" gives the line a thumbs up, and gives this particular product an 8/10 rating and states "a high concentration of proven effective ingredients". Scroll down for Power Cream review:
http://www.futurederm.com/2010/07/07/mla-skin-care-review/
For those interested in learning about interpreting cosmetic ingredient lists, there is a wealth of info on thewww. For now you would probably go far in just knowing that;
- ingredients must be declared in descending order of predominance
- if the formula contains anything that is also a *drug* it must be listed 1st, and labeled as an "active ingredient".
- any ingredient that is present at 1% or less, does NOT have to be in order of predominance..(This is where the manufacturer can get away with fooling you into believing an ingredient is in there at a benficial level, when in fact it is mearly a "dusting" but makes it on the list none the less.)
Here's the FDA's guidelines for cosmetics:
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/CosmeticLabelingLabelClaims/CosmeticLabelingManual/ucm126438.htm
For DIY'ers or those interested in the scientific side of formulating, I'll share the link to Cosmetic Corner once again:
http://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/
Starting at pg 12 of this pdf is a good start for learning about placement on the ingredient list; (Don't miss the 1% rule! Also keep in mind that the best the forumula has to offer, will surely be in the top 1/3rd of the list..)
http://www.chemistscorner.com/downloads/duplicatecosmetics.pdf
Learning without thought is labor lost, thought without learning is perilous..
@Keliu, finding ourselves a nice young lactating woman, and asking her to part with a nice *bottle* of that lovely "stem cell/cytokines" rich milk that we could smear on our face, would be a better alternative than anything that will come down the pike for DIY.... |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:50 pm |
Reposting for Dr. J...Brierrose answered (thanks!) but I would like to get more info on this.
Thanks!
| bethany wrote: |
Apologies if this has already been asked/covered, but what kind of delivery system is required for cytokines to be effective?
BTW, I ordered samples last night.  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:14 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Especially with Jom & Riley in mind..
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@Kassy  Thanks so much!
I will do my homework as soon as I get a chance! |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:21 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
Apologies if this has already been asked/covered, but what kind of delivery system is required for cytokines to be effective?
BTW, I ordered samples last night. |
This is as close as we got to an answer to that type question.
| DrJ wrote: |
The cool thing about mesenchymal stem cells is that you don't have to tell them where to go. They have a homing mechanism that takes them to exactly where they are needed. |
Nice to see you back Beth... Hope all your babies are A-okay... xox |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:23 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Especially with Jom & Riley in mind..
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@Kassy Thanks so much!
I will do my homework as soon as I get a chance! |
Ditto on the thanks, Kassy! |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:42 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
I feel as if we've reached a point where if it doesn't contain cytokines or if it's not DIYed by Dragon, then it's useless - along with the science behind it!
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I think we just have to keep in mind that those are their biases and evaluate their opinions with that in mind. I have my biases about what I think is most effective too and when I give advice or suggestions or provide information my biases shine through. |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:42 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
I feel as if we've reached a point where if it doesn't contain cytokines or if it's not DIYed by Dragon, then it's useless - along with the science behind it!
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I think we just have to keep in mind that those are their biases and evaluate their opinions with that in mind. I have my biases about what I think is most effective too and when I give advice or suggestions or provide information my biases shine through. |
I think it's a little different when biases equate to $$$ in the pocket... Just MHO
It's also a red flag to me when vendors or manufacturers of *products*, put everything and everybody down, who doesn't follow their lead as though they were the Pied Piper.. Kind of telling if you ask me... Not to mention blatantly obvious!
Lets face it, when something is good it will stand on it's own merit and stand the test of time... No need to brow beat the competition or be insulting, rude and condescending. Anyhoo, that's MHO. |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:34 pm |
| erg wrote: |
| hey, has anyone received samples yet? I ordered mine last week.. keep checking the mailbox. |
They just shipped today. Sorry for delay. Minor glitch. |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:36 pm |
[quote="bethany"]Reposting for Dr. J...Brierrose answered (thanks!) but I would like to get more info on this.
Thanks!
| bethany wrote: |
Apologies if this has already been asked/covered, but what kind of delivery system is required for cytokines to be effective?
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Sorry I didn't answer this earlier. I thought jom had done so. Nanoliposomes is the answer. Do you guys want to talk more about those? |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:50 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
I feel as if we've reached a point where if it doesn't contain cytokines or if it's not DIYed by Dragon, then it's useless - along with the science behind it!
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I think we just have to keep in mind that those are their biases and evaluate their opinions with that in mind. I have my biases about what I think is most effective too and when I give advice or suggestions or provide information my biases shine through. |
I think it's a little different when biases equate to $$$ in the pocket... Just MHO
It's also a red flag to me when vendors or manufacturers of *products*, put everything and everybody down, who doesn't follow their lead as though they were the Pied Piper.. Kind of telling if you ask me... Not to mention blatantly obvious!
Lets face it, when something is good it will stand on it's own merit and stand the test of time... No need to brow beat the competition or be insulting, rude and condescending. Anyhoo, that's MHO. |
Truth matters. Some people are passionate about telling the truth, and feel it is important to tell people when snake oil is being sold.It is not frivolous, it is an ethical obligation. I know this upsets some people. Fine, not everyone has to agree. But its not like we are blowing hot air - the people in this thread are citing real science, asking hard questions, and not looking for marketing spin.
If I thought stem cytokines was the ultimate solution to all that ails you, I wouldn't have any research left to do and I would be bored and unhappy. |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:58 pm |
Dr.J,
How about a list of products other than yours or Dragon's DIY that you actually think are worth purchasing? I know Hoof Maker......but what else? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:04 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
Dr.J and DragoN, What do you think of this moisturizer?
Water (Aqua), Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Squalane, Butylene Glycol, Diglycerin, Dimethicone, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Glycerin, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Isopropyl Isostearate, Hexanoyl Dipeptide-3 Norleucine Acetate, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-5, Ceramide 2, Dipalmitoyl Hydroxyproline, Hydroxyphenyl Propamidobenzoic Acid, Epilobium Angustifolium Flower/Leaf/Stem Extract, Sodium Hyaluronate, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Glucosamine HCl, Bambusa Vulgaris Extract, Pisum Sativum (Pea) Extract, Soy Isoflavones, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Ursolic Acid, Ilomastat, Ubiquinone, Tocopheryl Acetate, Tocopherol, Panthenol, Olea Europaea (Olive) Leaf Extract, Camellia Oleifera (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Lycium Barbarum (Goji) Fruit Extract, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Silica Dimethyl Silylate, Tribehenin, PEG-10 Rapeseed Sterol, Pentylene Glycol , Ceteareth-20, Steareth-2, Lecithin, Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Aminomethyl Propanol, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Ethylparaben, Fragrance. |
As a moisturizer ? -- really hard for me to read that (not being a formulation chemist). But quite a few familiar emollients & oils & emulsifier . Nice list of actives too, including some of my favorites, although a couple key ones missing (like stem cytokines). Who makes it? What's it cost? |
This is the product:
http://www.mlaskincare.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=power-cream
What do you think of this brand?
Would it be possible for you to ask your formulator his opinion? |
I work with three formulators. The chief guy won't like it. . He once opined to me that any formulator who uses silicones is lazy. |
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