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Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:48 pm  |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| DragoN wrote: |
You are correct about that. I will be getting some 3mm rollers shortly. I am not interested in half way when I can avoid it. 1.5 mm is unpleasant enough, fortunately only once every 5-6 weeks. May as well go the Full Monty on this one, shott term pain for long term gain.
Unlike the light systems for photo rejuvenation, Dermarolling/ skin needling doesn't carry the concomitant DNA mutagenic/ breakage effects along side. Which tends to equate to short term gain for long term sag. Pass on that 2 for 1 deal. |
Would you be rolling with these 3mm rollers during your trial with the Cellese product?
If yes then,
a) Would not that skew the results of your trial of the products?
b) Most members as far as I have read stop at 1.5mm on the face and some 2mm on the body, I am not sure how many would follow in your footsteps on the 3mm for the face. So your results would become inapplicable to many, many others. |
DragoN's use of the dermaroller, no matter what size of the needle may be a confounding factor in determining the effectiveness of AnteAGE on her skin. Anyone following her progress with AnteAGE should be made aware of her dermaroller use and the use of other tools. She has been informing us of the use of tools. The use of the tools should be taken into consideration by those who are following her progress and want to use her experience to evaluate the possibility of effectiveness for themselves. As DragoN said the N in her study is 1 (as it is for all of us) and she is the N that is most important to her. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:53 pm |
| Dr. J, could you ask your formulator if he considered putting essential oils into the serum (is that why they were on the original ingredients list?) and if so why did he decide not to put them in? Thanks |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:45 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| I am liking the AnteAGE serum so much that I'm starting to think that I would like to do a trial of just these products. I'm really hesitant about giving up the products that have worked for me though. My Vitamin C, AHAs and Retin A. But I'm also a little curious to see how my skin would do with just the Cellese. I think part of my hesitation is just brand loyalty, I've been using the products so long that they're like friends. But even though I've only been using the Cellese serum a short time I like how my skin has been looking since I started using it and I'm wondering if I should do a trial of just these products. I'm still trying to decide. |
I hope you will do so. I am very pleasantly surprised by these two serums. Not using my DIY serums, which I also know to be effective, is very hard. Albeit I cheat, my SS is not exactly boring. Works beautifully over the AnteAge serums.
Day #4. Good skin. Clear, calm, not greasy. Balanced.
| jom wrote: |
DragoN's use of the dermaroller, no matter what size of the needle may be a confounding factor in determining the effectiveness of AnteAGE on her skin. Anyone following her progress with AnteAGE should be made aware of her dermaroller use and the use of other tools. She has been informing us of the use of tools. The use of the tools should be taken into consideration by those who are following her progress and want to use her experience to evaluate the possibility of effectiveness for themselves. As DragoN said the N in her study is 1 (as it is for all of us) and she is the N that is most important to her. |
Thank you Jom. N=1 tends to load her bases. I am very much aware of the research behind the actives in these products. I would not even bother with it otherwise. The MSC cytokines are the star draw in this, but they are not effective in isolation, nothing is.
Vast majority of products are utterly useless. So not only does a person waste money, but they lose time as well. I don't and will not waste either.
*n.b. I am biased. I know for a Fact, that the actives present are effective when used at high enough concentrations. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:16 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
| *n.b. I am biased. I know for a Fact, that the actives present are effective when used at high enough concentrations. |
DragoN, do you think this serum and accelerator are potent enough to replace other actives like Retin A and Vit C? Or do you think that one would need to keep those going as well?
Thanks in advance for your insight! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:36 pm |
Bethany,
At Day #4. I cannot state that.
RetinA is proven, it is excellent and will depend on the needs of the individual and what they are treating. However, retinoic acid cannot be reconverted in the skin. You've read the research by Fernandes and that only further confirms the importance of the other A derivatives. Retinol is in AnteAge at 0.2%. I have been using it at 2%.
Vit C, the formula uses Tetra, I prefer AA2G or MAP. Stronger data for the use of both over Tetra.
AnteAge seems to have found a good balance though. My skin is just fine with it on Day #4. It had a great deal of prep and pampering prior to AnteAge. 8-12 weeks...I'll know where its at that point.
Not exactly helpful I am afraid. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:47 pm |
| DragonN - I can't see the point of you reporting daily results. Although, of course, if you had a massive allergy or something, that would be different. But surely, you're really not going to see any REAL difference until you have used the products for six months or more. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:05 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
Bethany,
At Day #4. I cannot state that.
RetinA is proven, it is excellent and will depend on the needs of the individual and what they are treating. However, retinoic acid cannot be reconverted in the skin. You've read the research by Fernandes and that only further confirms the importance of the other A derivatives. Retinol is in AnteAge at 0.2%. I have been using it at 2%.
Vit C, the formula uses Tetra, I prefer AA2G or MAP. Stronger data for the use of both over Tetra.
AnteAge seems to have found a good balance though. My skin is just fine with it on Day #4. It had a great deal of prep and pampering prior to AnteAge. 8-12 weeks...I'll know where its at that point.
Not exactly helpful I am afraid. |
Thank you! I'll keep an eye out for your future feedback. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:09 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| Dr. J, could you ask your formulator if he considered putting essential oils into the serum (is that why they were on the original ingredients list?) and if so why did he decide not to put them in? Thanks |
jom, they were considered, but in the end rejected. As you know from the "ingredients" thread I am a fan of EO's. The problem in the end boiled down to 1. sensitivities - fair % of people report sensitivities, 2. baffling array of choices. Which to include, which to leave out. 3. Stability of solid lipid nanoparticles & nanosomes. Physicochemically, requires a fair amount of lipid. EO's not the right kind of lipid for that. Had to be sparing on other lipids. I believe that has a workaround, but haven't gotten there yet.
What are your "must have" EO's? Do you think it better to stay "modular" (giving you more control over timing / dose)? Or do you like the "system does it all" concept?
As you know, the same debate is ongoing around the retinoids. We felt they were essential for a complete system, but for some who are already on tretinoin - they want to continue with the known molecule & doses. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:26 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| But surely, you're really not going to see any REAL difference until you have used the products for six months or more. |
I'm not going to see much of a difference. I have not that much to correct. No crows feet, no wrinkles, no sag, minimal NL folds. I am a lousy subject.
However, should it appear as though I had a lower bleph at the end of the 12 weeks.... I won't believe it either. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:40 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| Dr. J, could you ask your formulator if he considered putting essential oils into the serum (is that why they were on the original ingredients list?) and if so why did he decide not to put them in? Thanks |
jom, they were considered, but in the end rejected. As you know from the "ingredients" thread I am a fan of EO's. The problem in the end boiled down to 1. sensitivities - fair % of people report sensitivities, 2. baffling array of choices. Which to include, which to leave out. 3. Stability of solid lipid nanoparticles & nanosomes. Physicochemically, requires a fair amount of lipid. EO's not the right kind of lipid for that. Had to be sparing on other lipids. I believe that has a workaround, but haven't gotten there yet.
What are your "must have" EO's? Do you think it better to stay "modular" (giving you more control over timing / dose)? Or do you like the "system does it all" concept?
As you know, the same debate is ongoing around the retinoids. We felt they were essential for a complete system, but for some who are already on tretinoin - they want to continue with the known molecule & doses. |
Thanks, the reason I ask is that I've been experiencing something I can't quite explain when I'm using my essential oils over the serum. There is one oil blend which I used for a couple of days and didn't have a real problem with but then I started getting some (for lack of a better word) peeling from. I put the serum on then I put the oil on and then I got rolls of what I thought at first were dead skin rolling off my face. This continued for five days (I kept using the same oil over the serum to see if what I was experiencing would go away) and then I started wondering if it was the product rolling off, not dead skin. I used another oil blend and the same thing happened although not as dramatically as with the first oil blend. I had to rub it in harder to get the same "peeling." I tried it on my hand because I was thinking I was getting some peeling from teh Retin A I use. I put the serum on the back of my hand then put the first oil blend over it and the same thing happened which made me think that maybe it was product rolling off. I tried the second oil blend on my other hand over the serum and did not get the same kind of "peeling". It was slight. I tried not using oil and just putting my sunscreen on and that worked fine. I just like to use my oil too (I don't think I absolutley NEED too). I've been doing experiments all week to see if I could come up with an explanation for it but it just seems that the serum does not mix well with oils. Whether it makes my dead skin peel off or the product roll off.
Now I'm curious about this statement you made:
"3. Stability of solid lipid nanoparticles & nanosomes. Physicochemically, requires a fair amount of lipid. EO's not the right kind of lipid for that. Had to be sparing on other lipids. I believe that has a workaround, but haven't gotten there yet."
I'm not 100% sure I know what that means but does it mean that the lipids in the EO did not mix well with the rest of the serum formula? So that what I'm experiencing isn't completely unexpected. Tomorrow I'm going to try putting the oil on first before the serum to see how that works. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:45 pm |
| Jom - sounds like balling up to me. I use oils and I get that with certain products. I don't think putting the oil on first would be advisable because it would block the water soluble components of the serum from entering the skin. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:52 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| Dr. J, could you ask your formulator if he considered putting essential oils into the serum (is that why they were on the original ingredients list?) and if so why did he decide not to put them in? Thanks |
jom, they were considered, but in the end rejected. As you know from the "ingredients" thread I am a fan of EO's. The problem in the end boiled down to 1. sensitivities - fair % of people report sensitivities, 2. baffling array of choices. Which to include, which to leave out. 3. Stability of solid lipid nanoparticles & nanosomes. Physicochemically, requires a fair amount of lipid. EO's not the right kind of lipid for that. Had to be sparing on other lipids. I believe that has a workaround, but haven't gotten there yet.
What are your "must have" EO's? Do you think it better to stay "modular" (giving you more control over timing / dose)? Or do you like the "system does it all" concept?
As you know, the same debate is ongoing around the retinoids. We felt they were essential for a complete system, but for some who are already on tretinoin - they want to continue with the known molecule & doses. |
Thanks, the reason I ask is that I've been experiencing something I can't quite explain when I'm using my essential oils over the serum. There is one oil blend which I used for a couple of days and didn't have a real problem with but then I started getting some (for lack of a better word) peeling from. I put the serum on then I put the oil on and then I got rolls of what I thought at first were dead skin rolling off my face. This continued for five days (I kept using the same oil over the serum to see if what I was experiencing would go away) and then I started wondering if it was the product rolling off, not dead skin. I used another oil blend and the same thing happened although not as dramatically as with the first oil blend. I had to rub it in harder to get the same "peeling." I tried it on my hand because I was thinking I was getting some peeling from teh Retin A I use. I put the serum on the back of my hand then put the first oil blend over it and the same thing happened which made me think that maybe it was product rolling off. I tried the second oil blend on my other hand over the serum and did not get the same kind of "peeling". It was slight. I tried not using oil and just putting my sunscreen on and that worked fine. I just like to use my oil too (I don't think I absolutley NEED too). I've been doing experiments all week to see if I could come up with an explanation for it but it just seems that the serum does not mix well with oils. Whether it makes my dead skin peel off or the product roll off.
Now I'm curious about this statement you made:
"3. Stability of solid lipid nanoparticles & nanosomes. Physicochemically, requires a fair amount of lipid. EO's not the right kind of lipid for that. Had to be sparing on other lipids. I believe that has a workaround, but haven't gotten there yet."
I'm not 100% sure I know what that means but does it mean that the lipids in the EO did not mix well with the rest of the serum formula? So that what I'm experiencing isn't completely unexpected. Tomorrow I'm going to try putting the oil on first before the serum to see how that works. |
jom,
Yes I agree, your skin is not peeling. It sounds like your are causing a re-emulsification to occur with the added EO's, and you are forming a film. The only negative effect (other than it being annoying) would be possibly to open some liposomes. I would encourage you to experiment with timing. If you separate your EO's more in time from the serum (let it penetrate) I'm guess the EO's will find a more friendly place to sit. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:04 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
jom,
Yes I agree, your skin is not peeling. It sounds like your are causing a re-emulsification to occur with the added EO's, and you are forming a film. The only negative effect (other than it being annoying) would be possibly to open some liposomes. I would encourage you to experiment with timing. If you separate your EO's more in time from the serum (let it penetrate) I'm guess the EO's will find a more friendly place to sit. |
Thanks Dr. J, it sounds like that is what is happening. I'll wait or not use the oils at all. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:06 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Jom - sounds like balling up to me. I use oils and I get that with certain products. I don't think putting the oil on first would be advisable because it would block the water soluble components of the serum from entering the skin. |
Thanks Keliu, it probably is best not to use the oil first. |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:20 am |
| DragoN wrote: |
| ......I used RetinA for over 10 years. |
I meant not to hijack the thread but I really wanted to know, DragoN, what things that Retin-A couldn't give you? |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:00 am |
| Jom and Dragon, since both of you said you already have good skin, what exactly are you hoping to see from the AnteAGE products? (Or is this more of a matter of just maintaining your good skin?) |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:35 am |
Summer 2004,
Retin A is only part of the puzzle of what aids in maintaining dermal integrity. It is effective, but it is not the entire picture. Retinoids and the precursor forms are also key components in a whole series of cellular and gene mediated functions. Retinoic acid is the end point in the conversion process and is not reconverted in the skin. We short change ourselves by relying solely on RetinA as the A in skin care. Skin is essentially starved for Vitamin A in its precursor forms as it is annihilated by UV light and not reconverted from retinoic acid.
The conversion to retinoic acid in the skin is case by case dependent. It's an enzyme mediated conversion and unique to each individual. Many force themselves to use RetinA as it is proven. It is. I don't argue that point. I used it for ages, however, after laying off the RetinA and switching in RP and Retinol, my skin has definitely improved. It's a balance. I no longer require RetinA for acne control at all. It was one of the reasons I was using it, the added bonus, I also knew it was antiaging...but it wasn't enough. At 40, I started seeing the signs of crows feet. Then, I got busy. Prior to that, I could have cared less. SS and RetinA. Good to go. It was not much of shift to focus on my dermis. All signs of early wrinkling are long gone now. N=1 it works. I am not the only one though who is reaping the benefits of a more balanced approach to taking care of my hide. I have been preaching the 'Part of the Puzzle' for a while now.
There is no one singular magikal active. It's a symphony. One without the other, in many cases, not very effective. In combination, you have something. Cytokines, are a very useful part of the puzzle, I have been using Kinetin since it came available, for that exact reason.
When I first met DrJ, it was a rough beginning, as I am well aware of the BS being promoted. But,I remain curious and well aware of the limitations. As such,I am more than willing to give it a shot, as the formula is Not a one hit wonder. It's a beautifully designed creation based on what I also know to be effective as I have been using similar for quite a while. It is really quite a bit different than the other stem cell lines or any other product on the market.
| rileygirl wrote: |
| what exactly are you hoping to see from the AnteAGE products? |
The jungle juice I have been slapping together is based on similar lines as AnteAge, without the BM MSC cytokine mix. Will it make that much of a difference to N=1 ? |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:15 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Jom and Dragon, since both of you said you already have good skin, what exactly are you hoping to see from the AnteAGE products? (Or is this more of a matter of just maintaining your good skin?) |
I don’t know what AnteAGE can do for me that other products haven’t already done. I would like my undereye area to look more youthful and my pores to be smaller and to get rid of some redness. Those are the things I’ll be focused on seeing if I experience any results from AnteAGE. I’m also interested in prevention. Will my skin look better five years from now if I continue to use these products than it would look if I didn’t use the products? In short, do I really NEED these products, no. I’m just really curious and like to try new things every once in a while.
It's just an experiment (N=1) to see what if anything the AnteAGE can do for me in addition to the good results from other products that I've already experienced. I'm turning 50 at the beginning of next year and from some things I've read on the forum all hell can break out with your skin overnight when reaching age 50. I'd like to see what I can do to buffer any age-related changes.
So far I love the AnteAGE serum, there is some substance to it. And I think my skin looks brighter. At some point I may stop my other products and just use the AnteAGE serum and accelerator just to test it out. I'm still pondering that. |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:30 pm |
DragoN or Dr. J - can either if you please share how AnteAGE is similar/different/better than Estee Lauder Advanced Night Repair?
That was going to be the next product that I added to my regimen, but I am open to possibly changing that.
Thanks! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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shawnaboom
 
Joined: 23 Apr 2012
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:27 pm |
| Where can I find more information about the product? |
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havana8
Moderator
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:43 pm |
| shawnaboom wrote: |
| Where can I find more information about the product? |
Hi shawnaboom, If you go to page one of this thread, there is an overview of the line as well as links to the website. HTHs and welcome to the forum.  |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:56 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
DragoN or Dr. J - can either if you please share how AnteAGE is similar/different/better than Estee Lauder Advanced Night Repair?
That was going to be the next product that I added to my regimen, but I am open to possibly changing that.
Thanks! |
Hi bethany, that is a question with a short answer and a very long answer. I'll do the short version -- maybe we need a different thread to discuss the long. And I'll bet DragoN knows more about this than I do.
The actives in EL's ANR are all about DNA repair enzymes, and chemicals involved in synchronization of what are known as "clock genes".
The superstar active in AnteAGE is a collection of chemicals called cytokines whose pattern is specifically tuned to deal with skin rejuvenation. There are multiple mechanisms involved. It is not limited to a single construct like "DNA repair". DNA repair only does one thing - tries to rescue cells that have potential to mutate or die due to DNA damage.
DNA repair applied to skin is in in its infancy. The approaches used by EL (they bought a company with patents in the field) have merit in terms of the laboratory science -- i.e. being able to demonstrate in vitro that DNA repairs take place when you induce damage. There was even a clinical study where subjects had to drink H202 to get DNA damage so they could se eif the repair enzymes worked (the IRB must have been asleep, eh DragoN?). But there are problems (with lots of detail). Like the fact that these repairs take place intracellularly, in the cell nucleus no less, and it is notoriously hard to get enzymes through the skin, into cells, and to the nucleus. I have yet to see a stud that shows you can apply 8-oxoguanine DNA glucosylase, to skin and have it appear in the nucleus of cells.
Then there is the whole debate about whether trying to repair damaged DNA is a sound anti-aging strategy. This gets very complicated. Basically your body has a panoply of mechanisms in place to sort through damaged cells and kill off the ones it deems useless or dangerous (e.g. could lead to cancer). DNA repair sounds like a good way to prevent cancer, right? But it is not 100%. Sometimes you only halfway repair the DNA. A cell that otherwise would have been tagged for destruction (apoptosis) is now preserved. A potential cancer in the making? There is this delicate balance between age extension on the one hand, and cancer surveillance on the other.
And what about cell turnover. Skin rejuvenation means getting rid of old tired cells & matrix, and replacing it with fresh. Its what e.g. VitA does well. So, is trying to save old cells (given a DNA tune up) a good idea. It's like patching an old tire. It may keep running, but it could cause problems later.
Then there is this whole clock gene thing where they are actually doing what I think is a no-no ... fooling mother nature by inducing enzyme system only active during the day AT NIGHT. I don't care that they are "repair" oriented genes. There is a reason they are turned off at night. I don't know exactly what it is, but I trust the wisdom of nature.
They callit synchronization, I call it doing a double shift at a factory designed for day work only.
Having pointed out the mechanistic differences, I would also look to the claims. I( believe there are 4 or 5 for EL product, AnteAGE can claim 12. Ten if you are a purist.
Now, this is all theory. If you liked EL in the past, then you will probably like it now (its got a very nice texture - we could also talk about their approach to emulsions.
This answer is already too long. We need a new thread. How about DNA repair actives: the good, bad, and the ugly? And maybe another on clock genes. We can call it "Can your skin tell time? " Or maybe "How to make your skin cells work the night shift by unwinding their clocks". |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
DragoN or Dr. J - can either if you please share how AnteAGE is similar/different/better than Estee Lauder Advanced Night Repair?
That was going to be the next product that I added to my regimen, but I am open to possibly changing that.
Thanks! |
Hi bethany, that is a question with a short answer and a very long answer. |
Thanks for the info above...I knew they purchased the Remergent "technology" but back when Remergent was being sold there was no one else knowledgeable enough to share the pros/cons (so there were just pros floating around). |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:28 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
What are your "must have" EO's? Do you think it better to stay "modular" (giving you more control over timing / dose)? Or do you like the "system does it all" concept? |
Hi Dr. J, The oils I like most are rosehip oil, omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids, sea buckthorne oil, avocado oil and pure essential oils of Rose, Frankincense, Chamomile, Neroli and Geranium.
I have no problem being modular (except when my oils don't layer well over the other products I'm using  ) but wouldn't mind it if you included oils in the AnteAGE day product I've been asking for that doesn't contain the retinol. Just BM-MSC, ceramides, cholesterol, other barrier repair stuff and the oils. Sounds good. Wish I were a DIY kinda girl (except where would I get the BM-MSC  ). |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:37 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
What are your "must have" EO's? Do you think it better to stay "modular" (giving you more control over timing / dose)? Or do you like the "system does it all" concept? |
Hi Dr. J, The oils I like most are rosehip oil, omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids, sea buckthorne oil, avocado oil and pure essential oils of Rose, Frankincense, Chamomile, Neroli and Geranium.
I have no problem being modular (except when my oils don't layer well over the other products I'm using ) but wouldn't mind it if you included oils in the AnteAGE day product I've been asking for that doesn't contain the retinol. Just BM-MSC, ceramides, cholesterol, other barrier repair stuff and the oils. Sounds good. Wish I were a DIY kinda girl (except where would I get the BM-MSC ). |
Back in the 1950's there was a movement to grow mushrooms in your basement (for fun & profit). I think it had some unscrupulous promoters behind it. So I was thinking we could do home bioreactors. Farming cytokines for fun & profit. Make it a kitchen appliance. Plug it in, add BM-MSC starter kit, and poof - enough cytokines for the whole family - heck, the whole neighborhood. Maybe sell from your front curb.
OK, so you want a pure cytokines DIY product.
So, you are into ceramides, too? |
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