Review: Cellese AnteAGE Serum & Accelerator
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free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:18 pm

DrJ wrote:

I also need to report that samples have sold out. Since we had so many unforeseen problems with those containers, I say good riddance. We are testing new sample containers now and the sample program will restart in a few weeks.

That's good to hear since it seems to have been a problem with quite a few of us here on EDS. Wishing mine would've lasted the full 3 days

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:49 pm

foxe wrote:

I want to report that I used my samples (that finally arrived last week) last night with a .20 dermaroll.

I'm happy to report - NO blemishes have popped up on me (which DID happen when I trialed the 302 Skincare line). Phew! I actually used the Anteage serum on the lower 1/2 of my face and CPs on my upper for comparison's sake. Additionally - I used the accelerator on 1/2 of my lower face to see if that would cause any issues.

Since I have nothing bad to report, I feel I could continue using for a few more days. Unfortunately, though, the sample of the serum was only enough for 1/2 of my face!! Apparently quite a bit managed to leak out before it arrived.

I am happy with the first application of the product, though. I do like the serum better than the accelerator, though, as the serum absorbed into my skin better. The accelerator left a shine on me. That's something I want to stay away from with my oily skin. Rolling Eyes

I did notice the Cellese products doing a very good job on settling down some irritated, flakey skin.

Actually, if you do purchase full size, you'll be surprized at how little you need. I was using too much with the sample. I have oily skin but I find one pump of the accelerator in the morning after 2 of the serum works great and my skin is actually normal throughout the day. One pump is almost pea-sized but spreads easily and is more than enough for me. At night I up it to 2 pumps.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 8:47 pm

DrJ,

Thanks very much for your response.

DrJ wrote:

Q: How applicable are studies on one subpopulation of MSCs (e.g., BM-derived) versus another type of MSCs (e.g., adipose-derived)? Cytokine profiles among cell types are presumably quite different and even within particular immune cells, cytokine secretion can vary by subpopulation or localization.

Adipose-derived MSC’s and marrow-derived MSC’s have a great deal in common. But there are also differences. In terms of skin we know that derivatives of AT-MSC’s do show many or even most of the benefits of BM-MSC’s. So it is quite logical and scientifically sound to speak of cytokine-mediated benefits MSC’s generally. It is also quite reasonable to look at the differences, and to point to the unique role of MSC’s in healing & regeneration. All cells make cytokines – it’s like a language between them. All MSC’s express an abundance of the most important cytokines (esp. for healing, regeneration) in culture. BM-MSC’s are the body’s 911 system, and have a unique role as coordinators of healing & regeneration, as the local “drug store” for “prescription level” regenerative cytokines, by dint of strength (concentration) and the right mix (the prescription, if you will). Now, there is a few steps beyond just growing MSC’s in culture and farming these cytokines. Further sophistication comes into play when you understand the cytokine language and can metaphorically “talk” to the cells in culture. You can convince them to send out just the right cytokines to do a particular job. That is the proprietary layer that Cellese has invented.

So it seems fair to summarize this as "both similar and different", no? And then on top of this, the culturing of the MSCs adds even another layer of complexity (the proprietary part). So based on this, it seems wise to stick to looking only at papers on BM-MSCs.

DrJ wrote:

Q: How applicable are studies on MSC cytokines from animals (in particular, rats and mice) versus those from humans? In other words, how similar are the cytokine profiles?

Good question. Mostly the same. There are differences, albeit subtle. But interestingly the abundance of literature is in humans. You can learn a lot from rat studies, but you always want to be careful in extrapolating.

Terrific. That is exactly what I like to hear on both fronts: (a) mostly the same, and (b) the abundance of literature is in humans.

DrJ wrote:

Q: Do you measure any particular cytokines or related markers to ensure that you have not created a pro-inflammatory environment? Do you screen the volunteers from which you harvest the MSCs to ensure that they are healthy?

We do measure cytokines but have not yet published that data. Yes, the donors are fully screened and tested. The cells originate in a highly respected lab that supplies them for human bone marrow transplantation, so lots of controls in place. But remember, we do not put any cells or cell parts in our product. We only use them as a factory to create cytokines. We separate and leave behind all cells and cell parts. Contrast this with another company that “lyses” the cells to break them apart, then uses that extract in their product. The lytic process includes repeated freeze/thaw cycles that also can destroy cytokines.

Thank you. That's reassuring to know that you are looking into this. I look forward to hearing the results.

DrJ wrote:

Q: That's interesting that you have one formula that's for quick time-release and one that's for sustained time-release. Is the sustained time-release one really necessary?

Not necessary, no. But helpful. It’s based on what we know about cytokines receptors, absorption dynamics, etc. The system is designed to optimize around those sort of physicochemical considerations. We did a smaller clinical trial using a different formulation, without the accelerator concept. The results were about the same, but the final clinical trial (with accelerator) was incrementally better. I have explained elsewhere the rationale for the complete formulation and its composition, and separation of actives based on various considerations including chemical and functional characteristics.

Q: if a person had to pick one, is the time release formula better than the quick release one?

The serum is more important, because it contains the higher concentration of cytokines. The science is very young I terms of understanding of absorption dynamics, receptor saturation, that sort of thing. We are pioneering some of those studies now.

Helpful to know that some of the molecular "dynamics" are still in their infancy and where you stand with experimenting. I appreciate your upfrontness here, as well as your specific answers regarding the product. When you say incremental, how much of a difference are we talking about here?

DrJ wrote:

Q: Another thought that occurred to me: Do the MSC cytokines influence the differentiation "status" (excuse my lack of a better word) of cells that they are applied to?

The term differentiation implies undifferentiated cells. Nearly every cell that cytokines applied topically will contact are already differentiated, but at different of “maturity”.

Ah, yes, that is the word I was looking for: "maturation status". Yes, that is the phrase I meant.

DrJ wrote:

So while cells in the basal layer of keratinocytes are already differentiated, cytokines can signal for them to proliferate (divide, make more daughter cells) and push them into the maturation cycle that creates the visible cells of our skin. Similarly, fibroblasts become more active, and may proliferate. Now, if there are stem cells within the dermal layer, the cytokines will stimulate them in the same way they do in culture. We call it cross chatter. Your own stem cells will be stimulated to proliferate, and to join the battle (make more cytokines). Like most cells, they are team players.

So it sounds like you saying that the main effects are a speeding up of cellular proliferation, and that's it.

DrJ wrote:

Q: If MSC cytokines are so effective, the lack of more solid quantitative data on this particular product from the product makers themselves is surprising.

I point you back to what I have said before. We do not pre-publicize results of studies in progress, nor data from studies which we are in the process of publishing or trying the get published through a peer-review process. For those of you not in the sciences, this will be no surprise.

To publish it here would make it ineligible for publication elsewhere. Has to do with copyrights. Publishing is a business. Also, there are scientific ethics that govern when results should be released. In substitution for the time being, I try to educate from the ground up. I offer published data from other studies, hoping to show you how they synthesize into a cohesive theory of action. Some days I wish I could tell you more, but I myself must live with the frustration of the limits that come from “doing science”.

To add a caveat, this is only true of the biomedical sciences, where patents and profits are a complicating favor. In general in physics, we disseminate our data widely and 100% freely to anyone in the world *before* even submitting articles to journals for publication. Our "PubMed" is called "The ArXiv": arXiv.org. I find it very frustrating that publicly-funded research in the biomedical sciences is not accessible to the public...just terrible in my opinion...but I'll get off my high horse on that one for now....

Anyhow, like Keliu, I would have expected the studies to have been done (but not necessarily the papers published) before the product was marketed. Have your manuscripts been submitted yet to journals? Or is this something that will be submitted to journals in 1-2 years' time? I probably don't have to ask this Wink

, but could you let us know when they are published? If I can see that the evidence really becomes solid and more than just promising, I have no problem being a late adopter. It's seems very clear to me that there is promise but at the moment, I'm unclear what else is beyond that.

In the meantime, I will *try* to keep up with this thread; I'm interested in people's long-term results; and if/as I have time, I will try to look at a few papers. And to comment on responses to my earlier post, yes, I find reviews after using products 6+ weeks (at a minimum) or longer to be the most helpful and reliable.

Oh, one last science-related curiosity question, this one a bit more obscure but very intriguing to me: Are there studies out there on aging and BM-MSCs? Either in regards to their numbers or alterations in their "secretome" with aging? And are there any studies yet looking at these topics in calorically restricted animals or in the context of elderly people who are aging very well? I'm just curious about the current state of knowledge of BM-MSCs in regards to aging, or whether you can point me to an entry point in the literature on this one.

Thanks very much in advance.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 9:28 pm

In regards to the subjective measures of improvement listed here:

http://anteage.com/anteage-clinical-trial/

It sounds like there was no placebo to eliminate bias, correct?

Will your/do your newer studies involve a placebo/control of some sort and/or "blinding" of subjects or the professionals?

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 10:14 pm

cm5597 wrote:

Oh, one last science-related curiosity question, this one a bit more obscure but very intriguing to me: Are there studies out there on aging and BM-MSCs? Either in regards to their numbers or alterations in their "secretome" with aging? And are there any studies yet looking at these topics in calorically restricted animals or in the context of elderly people who are aging very well? I'm just curious about the current state of knowledge of BM-MSCs in regards to aging, or whether you can point me to an entry point in the literature on this one.

Thanks very much in advance.

The last one first. There is indeed a great deal of interest amongst those studying aging and longevity in the role of MSC's. You may have seen on our web site a graph showing the decline of MSC's with age. Of course donor age for stem cell (bone marrow) transplants has long been an issue.

Happy to discuss some of this in more depth. Meanwhile as a scientist you likely have access to a university library and can look up this full text review article *(abstract below).

Ageing Res Rev. 2012 Apr 30.

Mesenchymal stem cells: A revolution in therapeutic strategies of age-related diseases.

The great evolutionary biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky once said: "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution". Aging is a complex biological phenomenon and the factors governing the process of aging and age-related diseases are only beginning to be understood, oxidative stress, telomere shortening in DNA components and genetic changes were shown to be the mainly regulating mechanisms during the recent decades. Although a considerable amount of both animal and clinical data that demonstrate the extensive and safe use of mesenchymal stromal cells (MSCs) is available, the precise summarization and identification of MSCs in age-related diseases remains a challenge. Along this line, this review discussed several typical age-related diseases for which MSCs have been proved to confer protection and put forward a hypothesis for the association among MSCs and age-related diseases from an evolutionary perspective. Above all, we hope further and more research efforts could be aroused to elucidate the role and mechanisms that MSCs involved in the age-related diseases.

This one might interest as well.

Stem Cell Res. 2012 Mar;8(2):215-25.

Aging alters tissue resident mesenchymal stem cell properties.

Tissue resident mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) are known to participate in tissue regeneration that follows cell turnover, apoptosis, or necrosis. It has been long known that aging impedes an organism's repair/regeneration capabilities. In order to study the age associated changes, the molecular characteristics of adipose tissue derived MSCs (ASCs) from three age groups of healthy volunteers, i.e., young, middle aged, and aged were investigated. The number and multilineage differentiation potential of ASCs declined with age. Aging reduces the proliferative capacity along with increases in cellular senescence. A significant increase in quiescence of G2 and S phase was observed in ASCs from aged donors. The expression of genes related to senescence such as CHEK1 and cyclin-dependent kinase inhibitor p16(ink4a) was increased with age, however genes of apoptosis were downregulated. Further, an age-dependent abnormality in the expression of DNA break repair genes was observed. Global microRNA analysis revealed an abnormal expression of mir-27b, mir-106a, mir-199a, and let-7. In ubiquitously distributed adipose tissue (and ASCs), aging brings about important alterations, which might be critical for tissue regeneration and homeostasis. Our findings therefore provide a better understanding of the mechanism(s) involved in stem cell aging and regenerative potential, and this in turn may affect tissue repair that declines with aging.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:56 am

cm5597 wrote:

DrJ,

Thanks very much for your response.

My pleasure. Thanks for asking.

cm5597 wrote:

So it seems fair to summarize this as "both similar and different", no?

More than fair, yes.

cm5597 wrote:

And then on top of this, the culturing of the MSCs adds even another layer of complexity (the proprietary part). So based on this, it seems wise to stick to looking only at papers on BM-MSCs.

No, because there are similarities as well as differences, we can learn a lot from looking at others in the family tree. Other MSC niches, other stem cells, other cytokine rich cell populations, etc.

cm5597 wrote:

Terrific. That is exactly what I like to hear on both fronts: (a) mostly the same, and (b) the abundance of literature is in humans.

Maybe we should clarify and say the most useful literature is that in humans. I haven't actually counted.

cm5597 wrote:

Thank you. That's reassuring to know that you are looking into this. I look forward to hearing the results.

And we look forward to sharing them.

cm5597 wrote:

So it sounds like you saying that the main effects are a speeding up of cellular proliferation, and that's it.

No, the effects are way more complicated. If we just wanted proliferation we would add EGF or any number of mitogens. But that can have untoward consequences. Its more about regulation of growth and timing the biochemical events in the right sequence - not just speeding up. (would healing and cytokine literature speaks to this). Then i addition to proliferation we have management of immune system events favorably for regeneration. We have chemotactic and mobilizing effects on cells and nutrients. We have DNA level upregulation of key enzymes, other cytokines, various proteins, etc. I should probably make a chart one of these days soon.

cm5597 wrote:

To add a caveat, this is only true of the biomedical sciences, where patents and profits are a complicating favor. In general in physics, we disseminate our data widely and 100% freely to anyone in the world *before* even submitting articles to journals for publication.

The differences are less about the branch of science and more about public vs private, academia vs enterprise. In the realm of physics I am a principle (not a scientist) in a company (www.locatacorp.com) involving radio wave synchronization. Time loc and space loc. 12 years in stealth mode, 84 patents before our first product. Mind you, as you can see, we have published a lot of results in the past decade. That's one model. If we followed that we wouldn't be sharing our discoveries until 2020. But we would have some really cool patents and publications.

Back to cosmeceuticals. A world rife with whacky (junk) science, few controls, driven more by marketing than science. As you know, peer review publication cycles are long. Our work will trickle out. We decided that being in R&D mode forever and burning through hundreds of millions in investor money wasn't the model we wanted to follow.

To illustrate, look at the financial and product history of ISCO. Product based on solid stem cell science (we have issues, no biggie) they have burned through many millions of investor money. Their stock is today way down to 0.29 per share and they are still burning capital at a rate that makes their continued existence beyond another quarter or two a question worth pondering.

All this is to say consider all the variables. As an academic you may not care about this business stuff. We have to. We think we have found a reasonable balance between peer-review-validation-publication and marketplace forces. Unlike most cosmeceutical scientists, we work in an academic environment, not in private labs. If you can point to an example of a company pursuing leading edge skin care science who is doing it better, let us know. We will try to learn from their example.

Thank you for your most thoughtful questions and comments. We hope you continue to visit and share your unique perspective.

Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:36 am

can somebody give me a link to products and where you guys get samples. just my 5 cents - I feel that someone actively moving this product to the market while saying they are not.

Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:40 am

aleximantore wrote:

can somebody give me a link to products and where you guys get samples. just my 5 cents - I feel that someone actively moving this product to the market while saying they are not.

Hi aleximantore, The answer to both of your questions can be found on page 1 of this thread. Welcome to the forum. Smile

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:43 am

aleximantore wrote:

can somebody give me a link to products and where you guys get samples. just my 5 cents - I feel that someone actively moving this product to the market while saying they are not.

LOL....He posted yesterday the samples are sold out, they were all leaking product in transit, now he is getting different sample containers.
www.anteage.com www.cellese.com

Those are the selling sites if you want to keep checking for samples.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:52 am

DarkMoon wrote:

aleximantore wrote:

can somebody give me a link to products and where you guys get samples. just my 5 cents - I feel that someone actively moving this product to the market while saying they are not.

LOL....He posted yesterday the samples are sold out, they were all leaking product in transit, now he is getting different sample containers.
www.anteage.com www.cellese.com

Those are the selling sites if you want to keep checking for samples.

Sorry for any confusion. We have been selling product for 7 weeks now. The thread is long, easy to get lost in the forest of ideas.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:43 pm

I wanted to report I just used up the last of the serum bottle. If anyone is looking at how much is left in the bottle(light test) you need it take into account the top and bottom disk ( I don't know what else to call them) Together they are a little over a half of an inch wide. So you might have less left then you think.

My bottle lasted me about 7 1/2 weeks. I have another on order.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:10 pm

CookieD wrote:

I wanted to report I just used up the last of the serum bottle. If anyone is looking at how much is left in the bottle(light test) you need it take into account the top and bottom disk ( I don't know what else to call them) Together they are a little over a half of an inch wide. So you might have less left then you think.

My bottle lasted me about 7 1/2 weeks. I have another on order.

Cookie, how many pumps of the serum were you using and did you apply twice a day?

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:22 pm

brierrose wrote:

CookieD wrote:

I wanted to report I just used up the last of the serum bottle. If anyone is looking at how much is left in the bottle(light test) you need it take into account the top and bottom disk ( I don't know what else to call them) Together they are a little over a half of an inch wide. So you might have less left then you think.

My bottle lasted me about 7 1/2 weeks. I have another on order.

Cookie, how many pumps of the serum were you using and did you apply twice a day?

I used 2 pumps twice a day.(total of 4 pumps a day)

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:41 pm

CookieD wrote:

brierrose wrote:

CookieD wrote:

I wanted to report I just used up the last of the serum bottle. If anyone is looking at how much is left in the bottle(light test) you need it take into account the top and bottom disk ( I don't know what else to call them) Together they are a little over a half of an inch wide. So you might have less left then you think.

My bottle lasted me about 7 1/2 weeks. I have another on order.

Cookie, how many pumps of the serum were you using and did you apply twice a day?

I used 2 pumps twice a day.(total of 4 pumps a day)

That's great, that's what I use and I didn't think it would last that long.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:29 pm

Dr. J, I recently read "The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling" and Dr. S was very focused on introducing actives at the appropriate point in the wound healing cycle after a medical roll in order to work with the natural cycle instead of against it.

Ex: CPs should be applied at Day 5 or later (after the inflammatory phase) because that is when the fibroblasts are the most active. CPs can also be applied on an ongoing basis after that.

Book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Concise-Guide-Dermal-Needling/dp/0473173212

EDS thread on the book:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45819&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

Can you please share when in the wound healing cascade that cytokines are the most beneficial...is it during the inflammatory phase, or later? I am trying to figure out the appropriate time to introduce AnteAGE after a medical roll.

Thanks!

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:50 pm

bethany wrote:

Dr. J, I recently read "The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling" and Dr. S was very focused on introducing actives at the appropriate point in the wound healing cycle after a medical roll in order to work with the natural cycle instead of against it.

Ex: CPs should be applied at Day 5 or later (after the inflammatory phase) because that is when the fibroblasts are the most active. CPs can also be applied on an ongoing basis after that.

Book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Concise-Guide-Dermal-Needling/dp/0473173212

EDS thread on the book:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45819&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

Can you please share when in the wound healing cascade that cytokines are the most beneficial...is it during the inflammatory phase, or later? I am trying to figure out the appropriate time to introduce AnteAGE after a medical roll.

Thanks!

The appropriate time is immediately after. Unlike any other active, a selected pattern of cytokines addresses the core of the damage response. They accelerate healing, suppress inflammation, and promote the non-scarring, non-fibrotic pathway of matrix genesis. They are natural antibiotics. I plan to visit Dr S in the near future to introduce him to stem cell technologies. You have heard many anecdotes here about people applying AnteAGE to minor wounds, observing a very rapid response. It's the same with rolling. A study on all this is in the works.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:08 pm

DrJ wrote:

I plan to visit Dr S in the near future to introduce him to stem cell technologies. You have heard many anecdotes here about people applying AnteAGE to minor wounds, observing a very rapid response. It's the same with rolling. A study on all this is in the works.

So when are you going to visit Dr. Fernandes and get him to include your cytokines into his Environ Ionzyme line???

Quote:

The Ionzyme range is Environ’s premium range of skin care products that provides a complete skin care programme containing essential vitamins, antioxidants and peptides.

http://www.environ.co.za/ranges/ionzyme-range

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:14 pm

CookieD wrote:

I wanted to report I just used up the last of the serum bottle. If anyone is looking at how much is left in the bottle(light test) you need it take into account the top and bottom disk ( I don't know what else to call them) Together they are a little over a half of an inch wide. So you might have less left then you think.

My bottle lasted me about 7 1/2 weeks. I have another on order.

You are correct on the shadows of the top/bottom. I just ran out and was not happy thinking I still had more. I was able to go twice daily, 2 pumps each time for only 6 weeks. Sad

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:59 pm

Frodo wrote:

You are correct on the shadows of the top/bottom. I just ran out and was not happy thinking I still had more. I was able to go twice daily, 2 pumps each time for only 6 weeks. Sad

Hmm, I will have to check more closely on mine. Even with the discount, I am not sure I could afford the AnteAGE if it doesn't even last 2 months at a time.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:23 pm

rileygirl wrote:

Frodo wrote:

You are correct on the shadows of the top/bottom. I just ran out and was not happy thinking I still had more. I was able to go twice daily, 2 pumps each time for only 6 weeks. Sad

Hmm, I will have to check more closely on mine. Even with the discount, I am not sure I could afford the AnteAGE if it doesn't even last 2 months at a time.

Even if I could afford it, I am not sure I would want to spend that for 2 months or less. It may be something I use only post dermarolling, and spend my money on the proven actives on an ongoing basis. I am all for being an early adopter, but at the end of the day proven results will trump the cool/neato/high tech factor. I may chose to spend my $$$ on the proven vit A/C instead. We'll have to see how it plays out.

free skin care · Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:38 am

CookieD...Exactly how long did the serum last you? Was 2 pumps enough for the entire face or did you use 2 pumps just to restrain yourself from using too much of the serum?

free skin care · Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:50 am

bethany wrote:

Even if I could afford it, I am not sure I would want to spend that for 2 months or less. It may be something I use only post dermarolling, and spend my money on the proven actives on an ongoing basis.

If your intention is to use the AnteAge only after a medical roll - then my question to DrJ would be, "How long would the serum stay fresh and active after opening if used only intermittently"?

free skin care · Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:57 am

leeleedeedee wrote:

CookieD...Exactly how long did the serum last you? Was 2 pumps enough for the entire face or did you use 2 pumps just to restrain yourself from using too much of the serum?

I started the night of April 9 and 2 pumps were more than enough. I could have used less but remember my face is oily it may not be the same for everyone.

free skin care · Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:08 am

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Even if I could afford it, I am not sure I would want to spend that for 2 months or less. It may be something I use only post dermarolling, and spend my money on the proven actives on an ongoing basis.

If your intention is to use the AnteAge only after a medical roll - then my question to DrJ would be, "How long would the serum stay fresh and active after opening if used only intermittently"?

It has the 12 month symbol on the packaging, so I assume/hope that is the case. But I would probably use it pre-rolling too for a couple of months as a prep-mechanism.

free skin care · Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:38 am

Frodo wrote:

You are correct on the shadows of the top/bottom. I just ran out and was not happy thinking I still had more. I was able to go twice daily, 2 pumps each time for only 6 weeks. Sad

Frodo, what, if any results have you seen with AnteAGE in the 6 weeks you have used it?

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