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Wed May 09, 2012 5:17 pm  |
| Lotusesther.....unfortunately I have the smallest brain here. I am scientifically challenged. Just ask my husband. But, I'm happy you're pushing for the ingredient list. That's not a lot to ask for and I clearly don't understand why it's not forthcoming! |
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Wed May 09, 2012 5:40 pm |
I've posted these before. Just to review.
Cytotherapy. 2008;10( :771-4.
How do mesenchymal stromal cells exert their therapeutic benefit?
Horwitz EM, Dominici M.
Abstract
In recent years mesenchymal stromal cells (MSC) have emerged as a major new form of cell therapy. While the original perception was that MSC were stem/progenitor cells with the potential to contribute to the regeneration of tissue, more recent data suggest that the principal mechanism of MSC activity is through the release of soluble mediators that elicit the observed biologic response. Future studies are needed to identify more completely the spectrum of therapeutic applications and delineate better the associated molecular and cellular mechanisms.
Cell Stem Cell 2011; 9, July 8
The MSC: An Injury Drugstore
Caplan, A.I. & Correa, D.
Now that mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) have been shown to be perivascular in vivo, the existing traditional view that focuses on the multipotent differentiation capacity of these cells should be expanded to include their equally interesting role as cellular modulators that brings them into a broader therapeutic scenario. We discuss existing evidence that leads us to propose that during local injury, MSCs are released from their perivascular location, become activated, and establish a regenerative microenvironment by secreting bioactive molecules and regulating the local immune response. These trophic and immunomodulatory activities suggest that MSCs may serve as site-regulated ‘‘drugstores’’ in vivo.
Annu. Rev. Biomed. Eng. 2010. 12:87–117
Mesenchymal Stem Cells as Therapeutics
Parekkadan, B., & Milwid, JM.
Mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) are multipotent cells that are being clinically explored as a new therapeutic for treating a variety of immune-mediated diseases. First heralded as a regenerative therapy for skeletal tissue repair, MSCshave recently been shown to modulate endogenous tissue and immune cells. Preclinical studies of the mechanism of action suggest that the therapeutic effects afforded by MSC transplantation is short-lived and related to dynamic, paracrine interactions between MSCs and host cells. Therefore, representations of MSCs as drug-loaded particles may allow for pharmacokinetic models to predict the therapeutic activity of MSC transplants as a function of drug delivery mode. By integrating principles of MSC biology, therapy, and engineering, the field is armed to usher in the next generation of stem cell therapeutics. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 5:47 pm |
| leeleedeedee wrote: |
| Lotusesther.....unfortunately I have the smallest brain here. I am scientifically challenged. Just ask my husband. But, I'm happy you're pushing for the ingredient list. That's not a lot to ask for and I clearly don't understand why it's not forthcoming! |
I just asked for clarification on the EO's yesterday, and so did jom...yet the question goes unanswered.
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| [ Speaking of which .... is it happy hour yet? And what's on TCM tonight? |
Apparently not, you still have essential oils on your ingredients list for the serum on the Cellese website.  Perhaps you're imbibing too much which is resulting in a lack of attention to detail? 
I prefer HGTV. |
Ah, that's the problem. Cellese.com needs a refresh. AnteAge.com is right. It takes a while. If we get married, we are going to need separate TV's! |
This is the link you provided a few posts back http://anteage.com/key-ingredients/ I believe it is the AnteAGE website and it still says essential oils.
I thought you were already married? I'm calling out the papparazzi! (or better yet the FBI-there's another hole in your statement)! |
Then again, we could be the same sex. Not admitting which I am. I thought we were talking accelerator. No EO's there. |
I thought you said there were no EOs in the serum either? Which is it? Or are you saying you thought I was talking about the accelerator so you looked at that ingredients list and you did not realize that the ingredients for the serum still had EOs in the list? But it should not be there.
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| bethany wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| I thought we were talking accelerator. No EO's there. |
So there are EO's in the serum? Or no EO's anywhere? |
I am personally not going to reorder (and advised others not to order) until the corrected ingredient list is published here AND updated on their website. I really don't think that is too much to ask for.
Anyone else want to join me in a boycott until the correct info is provided/updated? I completely understand the incorrect box issue, but there is NO excuse for not updating the website and at least putting updated stickers on the boxes.
Alternatively, the FDA has a website for reporting issues that consumers feel are relevant, if we can't get answers from the expert. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:04 pm |
A resounding YES on the boycott!
After reading this I am more than concerned with ever using this in conjunction with rolling, the nose is after all the pathway to our brains!
Stem Cells Dev. 2011 Jul;20(7):1171-81. Epub 2010 Dec 13.
Mesenchymal stem cell-conditioned medium triggers neuroinflammation and reactive species generation in organotypic cultures of rat hippocampus.
Horn AP, Bernardi A, Luiz Frozza R, Grudzinski PB, Hoppe JB, de Souza LF, Chagastelles P, de Souza Wyse AT, Bernard EA, Battastini AM, Campos MM, Lenz
Abstract
Cell therapy using bone marrow-derived mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) seems to be a new alternative for the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases. Despite several promising results with their use, possible side effects are still unknown. In a previous work, we have shown that MSC-conditioned medium is toxic to hippocampal slice cultures and aggravates cell death induced by oxygen and glucose deprivation. In this work, we investigated whether the inflammatory response and/or reactive species formation could be involved in that toxicity. Rat organotypic hippocampal cultures were exposed for 24 h to conditioned medium from MSCs isolated from rat bone marrow. A marked glial activation was observed after exposure of cultures to MSC-conditioned medium, as evidenced by glial fibrillary acid protein (GFAP) and isolectin B(4) increase. Tumor necrosis factor-α and interleukin-6 levels were increased in the culture medium, and 2,7-dihydrodichlorofluorescein diacetate oxidation (indicating reactive species generation) and inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) immunocontent were also higher after exposure of cultures to MSC-conditioned medium. Antioxidants (ascorbic acid and TROLOX(®)), N(ω)-nitro-l-arginine methyl ester hydrochloride, and anti-inflammatory drugs (indomethacin and dexamethasone) reduced cell death in hippocampal organotypic cultures after their exposure to MSC-conditioned medium. The results obtained here suggest that MSC-secreted factors trigger reactive species generation and neuroinflammation in organotypic cultures of hippocampus, introducing a note of caution in the use of these cells for neurological application.
PMID: 20955077 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:21 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
A resounding YES on the boycott!
After reading this I am more than concerned with ever using this in conjunction with rolling, the nose is after all the pathway to our brains!
Stem Cells Dev. 2011 Jul;20(7):1171-81. Epub 2010 Dec 13.
Mesenchymal stem cell-conditioned medium triggers neuroinflammation and reactive species generation in organotypic cultures of rat hippocampus.
Horn AP, Bernardi A, Luiz Frozza R, Grudzinski PB, Hoppe JB, de Souza LF, Chagastelles P, de Souza Wyse AT, Bernard EA, Battastini AM, Campos MM, Lenz
Abstract
Cell therapy using bone marrow-derived mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) seems to be a new alternative for the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases. Despite several promising results with their use, possible side effects are still unknown. In a previous work, we have shown that MSC-conditioned medium is toxic to hippocampal slice cultures and aggravates cell death induced by oxygen and glucose deprivation. In this work, we investigated whether the inflammatory response and/or reactive species formation could be involved in that toxicity. Rat organotypic hippocampal cultures were exposed for 24 h to conditioned medium from MSCs isolated from rat bone marrow. A marked glial activation was observed after exposure of cultures to MSC-conditioned medium, as evidenced by glial fibrillary acid protein (GFAP) and isolectin B(4) increase. Tumor necrosis factor-α and interleukin-6 levels were increased in the culture medium, and 2,7-dihydrodichlorofluorescein diacetate oxidation (indicating reactive species generation) and inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) immunocontent were also higher after exposure of cultures to MSC-conditioned medium. Antioxidants (ascorbic acid and TROLOX(®)), N(ω)-nitro-l-arginine methyl ester hydrochloride, and anti-inflammatory drugs (indomethacin and dexamethasone) reduced cell death in hippocampal organotypic cultures after their exposure to MSC-conditioned medium. The results obtained here suggest that MSC-secreted factors trigger reactive species generation and neuroinflammation in organotypic cultures of hippocampus, introducing a note of caution in the use of these cells for neurological application.
PMID: 20955077 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] |
This has evolved into abject silliness. And again - the ingredients list is on the website. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:24 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
And again - the ingredients list is on the website. |
AGAIN, Dr, J Are there EOs in the serum or not and if so which ones! TIA |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:26 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
And again - the ingredients list is on the website. |
AGAIN, Dr, J Are there EOs in the serum or not and if so which ones! TIA |
OK, never mind I just checked the website again and you removed the EOs from the ingredients list. So has the list been looked at carefully for any other mistakes and can we assume the list is now a final list? |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:27 pm |
OK I guess I will post them since it is too much to ask:
Above It says Label ingredients on both?
AnteAGE SERUM 30 ML
Ingredients: Mesenchymal Stem Cell Cytokines, Water (Aqua), Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Niacinamide (Vitamin B3), Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7, PPG-3 Benzyl Myristate, Dimethyl Isosorbide, Carnosine, Hydrolyzed Myrtus Communis (True Myrtle) Leaf Extract, Polyacrylate-13, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Maltodextrin, Ilex Paraguariensis (Paraguay) Leaf (Yerba Mate) Extract, Cetearyl Ethylhexanoate, Polyisobutene, Phenoxyethanol (Preservative), Caprylyl Glycol (Naturally Derived Preservative), Polysorbate-20 (Plant Derived), Chlorphenesin, Tetrasodium EDTA, Citric Acid (Naturally Derived)
AnteAGE ACCELERATOR 50 ML
Mesenchymal Stem Cell Cytokines, Water (Aqua), Glycerin (Plant Derived), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, PPG-3 Benzyl Myristate, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol (Plant Derived), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E Acetate), Polysorbate-20 (Plant Derived), Cetearyl Glucoside, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate (Vitamin C Ester), Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Limnanthes Alba (Meadowfoam) Seed Oil, Dimethyl Isosorbide, Butylene Glycol, Polysorbate-60 (Plant Derived), Glyceryl Stearate (Plant Derived), Lecithin, Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyl Dimethyl Taurate Copolymer, Soybean Glycerides, Arachidyl Alcohol, Soy Isoflavones, Phenoxyethanol (Preservative), Helianthus Annuus (Hybrid Sunflower) Oil, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter) Fruit, Bisabolol, Caprylyl Glycol (Naturally Derived Preservative), Behenyl Alcohol, Lonicera Japonica (Honeysuckle) Extract (Natural Preservative), Foeniculum Vulgare (Fennel) Fruit Extract, Camellia Oleifera (ORGANIC) Black Tea, Algae (Seaweed) Extract, Xanthan Gum (Natural Thickener), Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar Cane), Chlorphenesin, Squalane (Plant Derived), Retinol (Vitamin A), Ubiquinone (Coenzyme Q10), Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B5), Allantoin (Comfrey Root Derived), Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon) Fruit Extract, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Sweet Neroli Orange) Fruit, Tetrasodium EDTA, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Juice, Sodium Hyaluronate, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Arachidyl Glucoside, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Salix Alba (Willow) Bark Extract, Vaccinium Myrtillus (Bilberry) Extract, Phyllanthus Emblica (Amla) Extract, Thioctic Acid (a-Lipoic Acid), Sodium Hydroxide (pH Modifier) |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:47 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
And again - the ingredients list is on the website. |
AGAIN, Dr, J Are there EOs in the serum or not and if so which ones! TIA |
OK, never mind I just checked the website again and you removed the EOs from the ingredients list. So has the list been looked at carefully for any other mistakes and can we assume the list is now a final list? |
I am personally good to go once we get feedback that it is 100% correct! But the website was previously incorrect as well, and when questions are overlooked I always assume they are being ignored for a reason (like when I asked if someone other than Dr.J posts under his alias). |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:50 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
After reading this I am more than concerned with ever using this in conjunction with rolling, the nose is after all the pathway to our brains!
Stem Cells Dev. 2011 Jul;20(7):1171-81. Epub 2010 Dec 13.
Mesenchymal stem cell-conditioned medium triggers neuroinflammation and reactive species generation in organotypic cultures of rat hippocampus.
Horn AP, Bernardi A, Luiz Frozza R, Grudzinski PB, Hoppe JB, de Souza LF, Chagastelles P, de Souza Wyse AT, Bernard EA, Battastini AM, Campos MM, Lenz
Abstract
Cell therapy using bone marrow-derived mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) seems to be a new alternative for the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases. Despite several promising results with their use, possible side effects are still unknown. In a previous work, we have shown that MSC-conditioned medium is toxic to hippocampal slice cultures and aggravates cell death induced by oxygen and glucose deprivation. In this work, we investigated whether the inflammatory response and/or reactive species formation could be involved in that toxicity. Rat organotypic hippocampal cultures were exposed for 24 h to conditioned medium from MSCs isolated from rat bone marrow. A marked glial activation was observed after exposure of cultures to MSC-conditioned medium, as evidenced by glial fibrillary acid protein (GFAP) and isolectin B(4) increase. Tumor necrosis factor-α and interleukin-6 levels were increased in the culture medium, and 2,7-dihydrodichlorofluorescein diacetate oxidation (indicating reactive species generation) and inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) immunocontent were also higher after exposure of cultures to MSC-conditioned medium. Antioxidants (ascorbic acid and TROLOX(®)), N(ω)-nitro-l-arginine methyl ester hydrochloride, and anti-inflammatory drugs (indomethacin and dexamethasone) reduced cell death in hippocampal organotypic cultures after their exposure to MSC-conditioned medium. The results obtained here suggest that MSC-secreted factors trigger reactive species generation and neuroinflammation in organotypic cultures of hippocampus, introducing a note of caution in the use of these cells for neurological application.
PMID: 20955077 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] |
I am not sure how this is relevant to applying small amounts topically? |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:57 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| I am not sure how this is relevant to applying small amounts topically? |
That is just it, we don't know, and that is a concern in my book! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 09, 2012 7:03 pm |
Kind of makes you wonder why anyone would be injecting a topical serum into their brain doesn't it? Or does it? 
Combination of activated Schwann cells with bone mesenchymal stem cells: the best cell strategy for repair after spinal cord injury in rats.
It's also been done at Yangmin with a placental stem cell population. 100% recovery. Seems part of the surrounding matrix is in part, the key. unpublished research.
Re: AnteAge Serum and Accelerator
Excellent. And knew it would be.
What do you think of chitosan coated nanosomes for internal delivery? |
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If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Wed May 09, 2012 7:22 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Some of our AnteAGE users have become pregnant while on the product (we claim no connection - although we do get thank you notes from spouses of users - so we may be a co-variable). |
Well if it can invade the body to an extent where it effects fertility than what is silly about thinking it may invade other parts of the body?
Or does it make one's spouse so beautiful as to be irresistible, thereby causing a more active attempt to make her pregnant? |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 09, 2012 7:37 pm |
| Dr. J, I am packing for a trip (carry on) and these 2 bottles take up a lot of space in a quart size bag. Is there any chance you are coming out with a travel size or can we decant this into another smaller bottle? TIA |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Wed May 09, 2012 8:55 pm |
| CookieD wrote: |
| Dr. J, I am packing for a trip (carry on) and these 2 bottles take up a lot of space in a quart size bag. Is there any chance you are coming out with a travel size or can we decant this into another smaller bottle? TIA |
Our 2 ml samples would work well for travel for 3-4 days. You can reuse the little containers. If you didn't get those, when do you leave and for how long? We could zip some to you tomorrow. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 9:25 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| CookieD wrote: |
| Dr. J, I am packing for a trip (carry on) and these 2 bottles take up a lot of space in a quart size bag. Is there any chance you are coming out with a travel size or can we decant this into another smaller bottle? TIA |
Our 2 ml samples would work well for travel for 3-4 days. You can reuse the little containers. If you didn't get those, when do you leave and for how long? We could zip some to you tomorrow. |
I'm leaving tomorrow. Maybe on my next order I will ask for some samples or try to stop by your offices when I'm back in Laguna Beach. Thank you. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Wed May 09, 2012 11:15 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| I am not sure how this is relevant to applying small amounts topically? |
That is just it, we don't know, and that is a concern in my book! |
Unfortunately, there is much we don't know about most stuff in our lives these days (like the quality of the food we eat, etc). 
Here are Dr. J's stats on absorbing Teprenone...if you follow the same philosophy in this case, it means that there is a very small likelihood of issues as compared to the neurological application (assuming direct injection) discussed in your study.
But at the end of the day, we all have to go with what we feel comfortable with. Does this mean you are going to stop using AnteAGE?
| DrJ wrote: |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| If you read the post about trepenone by NCN, you will see that the argument is not 'it is not absorbed' but 'the amounts are very different from the use as a drug, so that there are no systemic effects'. |
Teprenone is prescribed for oral absorption; 3 capsules of 50mg a day, i.e. 150mg.
RENOVAGE contains 2% of Teprenone; if used at 2% in a cream, that makes 0.04% Teprenone in the cream, i.e. 400mg/kg of product, thus 400 micrograms per gram, or 400 nanograms/mg. Normal usage on the skin is, say, 2mg of cream/cm2 , thus 800 nanograms per cm2; if you use it on your entire face, say, 200cm2, you would apply 160 micrograms; twice a day: 320 micrograms. Even assuming 100% of this amount penetrates into the skin (highly unlikely); you would absorb 500 times less Teprenone than with a daily oral use.
Conclusion: the very low amount of Teprenone in the cream removes it very far from any claim of being a drug, of presenting systemic effects or risks. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu May 10, 2012 2:44 am |
| bethany wrote: |
it means that there is a very small likelihood of issues as compared to the neurological application (assuming direct injection) discussed in your study.
But at the end of the day, we all have to go with what we feel comfortable with. Does this mean you are going to stop using AnteAGE?
| DrJ wrote: |
Conclusion: the very low amount of Teprenone in the cream removes it very far from any claim of being a drug, of presenting systemic effects or risks. |
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This is the theory I am going with. The AnteAGE is a "cosmeceutical" not a drug. But, Bethany is correct, there are a lot of unknowns out there, and you have to use what you feel is best for you. |
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Thu May 10, 2012 5:20 am |
I get it, it is just that a theory, but what I find a bit contradictory is nobody went off when I have posted studies/abstracts with POSITIVE internal uses of BM-MSC Cytokines! (Dr. J did so as well) No then all is great and we take it on blind faith that there are no possible contraindications to using these internally or externally?
What I really used to love about EDS was the fact that members were willing to look at all sides of any product/ingredient, and yes many times we have used things that we find conflicting information on. Has this become one of those "sacred cow" products where only positive findings are to be posted?
I am not digging back through all threads the doc has posted on, however my memory is not that bad and I know he has posted medical studies regarding the use of BS-MSC cytokins for medical/internal use, but those were all positive.
Will I continue to purchase and use, well that does depend on what improvement I see, price of the Loyalty Program once that is divulged, hopefully soon?
Sorry it has suddenly become "silly" to present the not positive side of an ingredient in a product that Dr. J has said gets in to the skin on a cellular level and the cytokins know where to go and what to do? Really what does that mean?
The doctor also needs to stop listening to those "little voices" because they are sadly mistaken about me and any supposed agenda I have to ruffle his feathers.
Regarding food I buy organic grass fed meats, I am not a milk drinker, 99% organic free range ect. so what that has to do with anything I use on my face I don't know but there is that answer?
OK, I am off to get my one mug of coffee so any who wish to have a go at what I have said have at it. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu May 10, 2012 6:11 am |
Well, what bothers me is the fact that once we start to question the Celese product within a negative framework, then we are told that we are being "silly" like we are small children being slapped on the wrist.
I work very hard for my money and I'm not going to just blindly plunk it down to buy any product out there on the market.
Thank you, Dark Moon, for bringing to light other aspects of this product. What I like about this forum are the posters who aren't afraid to bring to light all sides of a product both positive and negative.
This forum should be a place where all questions can be asked with no one offended by them. |
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Thu May 10, 2012 6:16 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
What I really used to love about EDS was the fact that members were willing to look at all sides of any product/ingredient, and yes many times we have used things that we find conflicting information on. Has this become one of those "sacred cow" products where only positive findings are to be posted?
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I don't think this is a sacred cow product at all, Darkmoon. And, that is still what is best about EDS, we can discuss all sides. I don't think it is "silly" to post negative things at all and I am sure most of the members feel that way. Both sides of the story are important in someone making a decision to buy/use or not a product.
But to me, internal vs external use are very different things. That is just my opinion. Everyone is definitely entitled to their own. At least for me, I was just saying that after seeing both sides, a person needs to make a decision for themselves if they use a product or not. Nothing is written in stone about any of these ingredients (except A) IMHO!
On a different note, someone here reported that the AnteAGE was helping their eczema. Unfortunately for me that is not the case. My eczema is still flaring and I have used the AnteAGE on it twice a day for almost 4 weeks now. |
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Thu May 10, 2012 6:40 am |
Please don't let this thread revert back like the previous thread...
I agree with Bethany, who knows what we are even breathing in air wise. Heck, I just did IVF and who knows long term, decades later, what that can do to a person.
Dr. J, I'm pregnant and will use the serum with diluted accelerator. The daily limit of Vitamin A for pregnancy is 5,000iui, not to exceed that I mean. So I am sure the Accelerator is not that high in Vitamin A.
I'm still trying to finish up Lifeline, which is rather funny since I thought it wouldn't last so long. Again, disappointed in Lifeline here. Once that's depleted I go back on AnteAge. |
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Thu May 10, 2012 8:31 am |
You are all certainly entitled to your opinion. I am just frustrated that the debate has become about something other than the science. The science is abundantly clear. Let me review:
It seems that some of you have worries about a study showing that conditioned media of MSC’s does not rescue severely damaged rat brain hippocampal cells. There are multiple problems with extrapolating this to products that use MSC’s at some point in their genesis. Let’s name the problems.
1. The studies themselves are poorly done. I have read them. Anyone else here bother to look past the abstract and read the methods section? Or the results section? If you take fatally wounded cells and bathe them in a medium containing unknown substances (they don’t seem to know anything about cytokines, they don’t measure them, don’t even speak of them), they die. Maybe the medium hastened their death, who knows? If so, that may because that is a healthy thing to do. That’s a survival mechanism. Damaged cells if allowed to replicate with DNA alterations can result in cancers. It is part of body’s innate wisdom to knock off these cells. It’s called apoptosis. So this whole damaged cell model really doesn’t tell us anything we don’t already know. It’s useless to draw any conclusions from it.
2. Conditioned medium is not one single thing. It’s not drug based on a single molecule. It’s the nutrient fluid bathing a cell culture. The molecules in it depends on how you treat the cells. The cells respond to all sorts of things, from temperature to oxygen and CO2 to nitrogen, to what you feed them to etc ((thousands of possibilities). Here is a simple analogy. It’s like “soup”. A liquid mixture usually served warm. But the generic label “soup” doesn’t tell me if it is chicken soup, pea soup, or deadly nightshade soup. What chemicals are in said soup? Obviously, it depends … what did you put in it? How did you make it? The same is true for conditioned media. Made by cells in a culture flask responding to an environment by making things. Are the cells growing, or not? Stressed, or not? Confluent, or not? What passage or generation? To understand a CM (and why it may affect some other experiment) you have to know exactly what is in it. All these Brazilians do is say “I damaged some brain cells and then fed them some soup”. Means nothing. What’s in that soup? They didn’t say because they don’t know.
3. There is abundant evidence that diseased or damaged brain cells and neural cells can be rescued by MSC’s, and I already provided abundant references. I can find you hundreds more. It is in the “ indisputable” category of scientific truths, based on high quality work. Some are about cells, not conditioned medium, you say. Again, I have also taught and provided ample references that MSC’s work mainly through cytokine/paracrine communication. They have been called “drug stores” for damaged cells. True in heart, liver, kidney, and brain. Bathe any of these tissue in conditioned medium of CM and see some extremely positive results. Reversal of fulminant hepatic failure, Etc. From superb institutions right here in the U.S. Not a backwater country. You could ask any stem cell scientist anywhere in the world. You will get the same story.
To put the final nail in that coffin, we have done experiments where we bathed damaged keratinocytes (skin cells) in cultures of MSC’s. Our results directly refute any extrapolation you want to make from one study about rat amygdala, which is also refuted by hundreds (maybe thousands) of other studies in neural tissues, including human.
4. I realize most of you are not scientists. Those who know me know I do not talk down to you or try to oversimplify things. But at the end of the day, you need to know how to judge the quality and import of any piece of science data. You can always find something contradictory, but not every fact or opinion deserves equal weight. In this circumstance, I can simply tell you that the evidence in favor of the benefits (and safety) of what we are talking about is overwhelming. Not just “preponderance of evidence”. Truly overwhelming. If you have some issue with me and don’t want to take my word for it, go ask any stem cell scientist. If there is any qualified person who wants to debate this with me or my colleagues, please ask them to step forward. Let’s debate the data.
5. Extrapolation. It is faulty logic to extrapolate from findings that may have nothing to do with a product. Here there seems to be some desire to extrapolate from uncontrolled conditioned media from MSC’s grown under primitive conditions used to then bathe dying rat brain cells to a product that contains cytokines in optimized patterns derived from MSC’s under highly controlled conditions used on skin. The product label doesn’t say “conditioned medium” for a reason. I’ve explained what that is and isn’t.
The product also doesn’t say to ingest it or bathe brain cells in it, either. AnteAGE affects are localized to skin. Cytokines are not like a single molecule drug. Not a drug at all, but a set of natural cell signals. Your body is filled with them right now.
There is even suggestion that dermarolling may introduce substances into your brain. That’s extrapolation gone amok. Unless you are dermarolling with 6 inch needles aimed at your amygdala you are worrying needlessly. And frankly it’s the bacteria living on your skin that you would most need to worry about. And if you are healthy and you stick that needle in brain what do you suppose might happen? Well, amongst other things, your body would mobilize mesenchymal stem cells from your bone marrow to the area of damage and would being pumping out healing cytokines.
6. Debate is good and welcome within science. But there are standards of fairness and good faith. It is not acceptable to quote people claiming to have authority who won’t even reveal who they are. I suspect that if they were truly qualified, and believed what they are saying, they would not be afraid to step forward rather than snipe from the shadows. This ethic is not just a science one – it holds in any public discourse. It’s just rules of fair play.
7. To summarize, helping severely damaged rat brain cells with an “end of life plan” using random soups of unknown composition has nothing to do with our product which is based on stem cell technology and skin science.
If after all this very compelling science you still want to worry, I would have to conclude that I cannot stop you with scientific logic. I would guess that something else must be driving it. In which case, not my department. I have executed my mission as faithfully as I could. I may not be the perfect teacher, certainly not the most patient, but I don’t notice a lot of other high tech companies allowing their scientists to spend real time with a tiny group of lay users to “go deep” on science. I was motivated by what I perceived was a genuine desire to learn. It benefitted me by honing my skills at communicating science. If I failed to accomplish that, then I will have to live with it. You can’t always correctly predict the outcome of an experiment. |
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Thu May 10, 2012 8:43 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Sorry it has suddenly become "silly" to present the not positive side of an ingredient in a product that Dr. J has said gets in to the skin on a cellular level and the cytokins know where to go and what to do? Really what does that mean? |
It was not appropriate for anyone to post that your shared information was silly...this is a forum for open discussion, and Dr J himself has stated that he loves debate.
But some things are relevant to a conversation, and others are not...we each have to decide what is relevent and appropriate for us. For me personally, I think that brain injections are very different than applying topically, but do see your point that the cykotines ultimately didn't keep the cells from dying (or may have caused the death..I'm not sure).
| DarkMoon wrote: |
The doctor also needs to stop listening to those "little voices" because they are sadly mistaken about me and any supposed agenda I have to ruffle his feathers.
..
OK, I am off to get my one mug of coffee so any who wish to have a go at what I have said have at it. |
I wouldn't take things so personally. There are many people here that ruffle feathers, and everyone of them has supporters. 
The purpose of the forum is discussion, and not everyone is going to like everything that is said. But getting emotional about it just makes people look bad, since there are far more important things going on in the world every day and we are just talking about silly skincare.  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu May 10, 2012 8:54 am |
OK. In all the scientific research I have read through, the presence of cytokines is expressed in picograms per ml. (ml. of culture medium, or intercellular fluid, or blood, whatever).
My question is: how can you state cytokines as first and main ingredient of your serum? And if this is correct, how can it be you can sell this as a cosmetic, since the effects of cytokines on tissues so far have been researched and described using solutions containing picograms, not grams, of cytokines? |
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| Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:27 pm |
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