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Sun May 27, 2012 8:33 pm  |
| jom wrote: |
| He has provided plenty of proof in all of the studies he has posted showing the benefits of BM-MSC. At least the main ingredient has a lot of clinical proof behind it. |
Yes exactly! He has done what you say the other companies do:
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| I don't think places like NCN and Skinactives test products I think they just use "clinically proven" ingredients in their products so when they make claims about the product they make the claims of the ingredients. Like they use retinol and then they claim the product can do what retinol is claimed to be able to do. I've never seen any data from Fresh, OH or Ren either. They don't do testing just use ingredients that have been studied then claim the product can do whatever the ingredient is said to be able to do. They never say if the ingredient is in the product in beneficial amounts, just that the product has the ingredient. Lots of skin care companies don't do clinical testing. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun May 27, 2012 9:43 pm |
Could we possibly have an amnesty on levelling the same old criticisms at AnteAGE/ Cellese/ DrJ? Nothing in the last couple of pages is new, it's like Groundhog Day.  |
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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Sun May 27, 2012 10:48 pm |
Something like this Keliu?
The clinical anti-aging effects of topical kinetin and niacinamide in Asians: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, split-face comparative trial
View Full Article (HTML) Get PDF (191K)
Keywords:
kinetin (N6-furfuryladenine);
niacinamide;
cosmeceuticals
Summary
Background Kinetin and niacinamide are used in the cosmetic industry as anti-aging agents. Neither the interactive/additive effects of these compounds nor the anti-aging efficacy on Asian skin has been studied.
Objective To assess the clinical anti-aging effects and efficacy differences between kinetin plus niacinamide and niacinamide alone vs. vehicle placebo in an Asian cohort.
Methods Fifty-two Taiwanese subjects were enrolled in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, split-face comparative study. Group 1 subjects were treated with kinetin 0.03% plus niacinamide 4%, whereas group 2 subjects received niacinamide 4%. The treatment formulation was applied on one side of the face, whereas a placebo was applied on the other for a period of 12 weeks. We used noninvasive biometrological instruments to evaluate a variety of skin parameters at baseline and at weeks 4, 8, and 12.
Results Persistent and significant reductions in spot, pore, wrinkle, and evenness counts were found at weeks 8 and 12 in group 1. A significant increase in corneal hydration status was also evident at week 12, whereas persistent decreases in erythema index were apparent at 8 and 12 weeks. In group 2, significant reductions in pore and evenness counts at week 8 and wrinkle counts at week 12 were noted.
Conclusion We found kinetin and niacinamide exert a synergistic anti-aging effect. Our data suggest that these compounds have multiactive, multifunctional, and pluripotent effects on skin. They are also both promising to be included in the cutaneous anti-aging cosmeceuticals in the future.
Epidermal and Dermal Characteristics in Skin Equivalent after Systemic and Topical Application of Skin Care Ingredients
Keywords:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1196/annals.1354.046/abstract?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=
Imedeen
Mimeskin;
skin equivalent;
keratinocyte proliferation;
dermal matrix;
kinetin
Abstract: Effects of active ingredients from topical and systemic skincare products on structure and organization of epidermis, dermal–epidermal junction (DEJ), and dermis were examined using an in vitro reconstructed skin equivalent (SE). Imedeen Time Perfection (ITP) ingredients (a mixture of BioMarine Complex, grape seed extract, tomato extract, vitamin C) were supplemented systemically into culture medium. Kinetin, an active ingredient from Imedeen Expression Line Control Serum, was applied topically. Both treatments were tested separately or combined. In epidermis, all treatments stimulated keratinocyte proliferation, showing a significant increase of Ki67-positive keratinocytes (P < 0.05). Kinetin showed a twofold increase of Ki67-positive cells, ITP resulted in a fivefold, and ITP+kinetin showed a nine-fold increase. Differentiation of keratinocytes was influenced only by kinetin since filaggrin was found only in kinetin and kinetin+ITP samples. At the DEJ, laminin 5 was slightly increased by all treatments. In dermis, only ITP increased the amount of collagen type I. Both kinetin and ITP stimulated formation of fibrillin-1 and elastin deposition. The effect of kinetin was seen in upper dermis. It stimulated not only the amount of deposited fibrillin-1 and elastin fibers but also their organization perpendicularly to the DEJ. ITP stimulated formation of fibrillin-1 in deeper dermis. In summary, the combination of topical treatment with kinetin and systemic treatment with ITP had complementary beneficial effects in the formation and development of epidermis and dermis.
For a cosmetics company, it is rather difficult to run clinical trials. They aren't scientists. They have precious little clue what it requires nor would they be able to get the approval. They are forced at great expense to do so through a lab or if lucky, a University, but no body is interested in that.
The little witch hunt being drummed up here is running into the same wall over and over again. AnteAge isn't Renocrap.
The formula with or without the BM MSC is solid. All anyone is doing "testing" after that point is looking for a potential synergy positive or negative. That may be relevant. That the active components in the formula have effect is known. [depending on concentration] It becomes redundant and daft after a certain point or not?
Apparently not...but I won't be jumping in line for the "white tea extract" either... |
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If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 28, 2012 2:01 am |
@ Bethany: I, and I guess lots of other people as well, received a pm from dr J when the products were launched offering me a 20 % discount.
That was valid april only.
Hmmmmm. Looks like most posters here used that coupon code. Very clever marketing.
I notified Havana of this, because I assumed selling through pm would not be allowed, but apparently it is. I am learning here every day, though not just about skin care. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 2:08 am |
Cheeky bugger...I never got that PM!!!
RATZ!!! |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 28, 2012 2:14 am |
| That pm went to all the people who had posted in the discussion thread about the product on this foruma according to the mail. I don't know what kind of discount the SCT peope were offered. Or if the admin there would allow such an action. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 2:28 am |
| Try: ZERO. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 28, 2012 3:13 am |
| DragoN wrote: |
Cheeky bugger...I never got that PM!!!
RATZ!!! |
Me neither. Wish I had! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 5:36 am |
Dragon - As I stated to Jom, I'm simply after some data on the effectiveness of the actual serum - not individual ingredients.
I didn't receive any PM offering a discount either. This is where this type of marketing gets tricky. It's happened with other products which get discussed here - sellers offer free products or discounts for comment or review on the forum. Then allegations get made inferring a "cash for comment" situation.
Personally, I think it ends up causing more trouble than it's worth when it's discovered that some are getting preferential treatment. It's obvious that DrJ and Dr. George have been marketing their serum throughout the skincare boards pretty heavily. IMO it would be much better to just issue a discount code for members of the various forums involved. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:00 am |
I am not a witch hunter but more a Miss Tick. All I try to do is look at dr J's product the same way he makes us look at the products of the competition.
I am intrigued by this
| Quote: |
| The formula with or without the BM MSC is solid. All anyone is doing "testing" after that point is looking for a potential synergy positive or negative. That may be relevant. That the active components in the formula have effect is known. [depending on concentration] It becomes redundant and daft after a certain point or not? |
because it is supposed to be a. the effects of the cytokines and b. the synergy with the rest of the formula that will give wonderful results.
Now, that could do with a bit of substantiating evidence don't you think?
In this topic we have read dr J about beneficial effects on rosacea and eczema, and even about the plumping of cheeks. It would be nice if there was some kind of evidence on that, regarding the serum/accelerator itself. After all, application to intact skin is something different than application on open wounds, and cytokines sec are not the same as implanted stem cells producing cytokines in loco, triggered by local events such as severely damaged heart muscle giving out emergency signals.
Cytokines and stem cells are the buzz words of today. Interesting that you keep on emphasizing that the product would deliver even without the stem cell cytokines. That would mean you don't need them in the formula even though you're paying for them. If you really mean that, why endorse a product that has a main ingredient that, according to you, does not add significantly to its effectiveness? |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:03 am |
Firefox, I hear ya! There is the other thread for this type of discussion:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45271
This thread is supposed to be for results and how we're getting on with the product.
P.S. AnteAge works really great on burns, I burnt my wrist recently from the oven, helped speed healing. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:10 am |
| WhiteWolf wrote: |
| This thread is supposed to be for results and how we're getting on with the product. |
Considering the fact that results won't show up until after at least six months of use - we may as well discuss other aspects of the product in the meantime!! All of which is relevant to the consumer IMO. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:21 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
I am not a witch hunter but more a Miss Tick. All I try to do is look at dr J's product the same way he makes us look at the products of the competition.
I am intrigued by this
| Quote: |
| The formula with or without the BM MSC is solid. All anyone is doing "testing" after that point is looking for a potential synergy positive or negative. That may be relevant. That the active components in the formula have effect is known. [depending on concentration] It becomes redundant and daft after a certain point or not? |
because it is supposed to be a. the effects of the cytokines and b. the synergy with the rest of the formula that will give wonderful results.
Now, that could do with a bit of substantiating evidence don't you think?
In this topic we have read dr J about beneficial effects on rosacea and eczema, and even about the plumping of cheeks. It would be nice if there was some kind of evidence on that, regarding the serum/accelerator itself. After all, application to intact skin is something different than application on open wounds, and cytokines sec are not the same as implanted stem cells producing cytokines in loco, triggered by local events such as severely damaged heart muscle giving out emergency signals.
Cytokines and stem cells are the buzz words of today. Interesting that you keep on emphasizing that the product would deliver even without the stem cell cytokines. That would mean you don't need them in the formula even though you're paying for them. If you really mean that, why endorse a product that has a main ingredient that, according to you, does not add significantly to its effectiveness? |
I just want to back you up on the fact that pms were sent out for a 20% discount to members, I did receive one also!
I sent a copy to both Havana and Magda as it was also my understanding selling (as I perceived it) was against the rules of the forum. I guess I was also mistaken at least in this case!
Ditto on the rest of your post! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:25 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
@ Bethany: I, and I guess lots of other people as well, received a pm from dr J when the products were launched offering me a 20 % discount.
That was valid april only.
Hmmmmm. Looks like most posters here used that coupon code. Very clever marketing.
I notified Havana of this, because I assumed selling through pm would not be allowed, but apparently it is. I am learning here every day, though not just about skin care. |
I went against the doctors orders and shared that code with Bethany so she is well aware of the fact he sent those out, I guess she missed the use by date! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:38 am |
| I never received the PM either, nor the "loyalty" offer. |
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Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 am |
| sigma wrote: |
| I never received the PM either, not the "loyalty" offer. |
Without disclosing names others who "participated" in the many threads Dr.J was on did receive the 20% discount pm.
As of yesterday nobody got the "Loyalty Discount" email, but according to jom they should go out this week? |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:57 am |
 I just popped in to say that I'm enjoying the products very much.I've only been using them for a short time ( 2 weeks) but, at this point, my skin feels and looks healthy. It still too soon to say anything more than that. The only other product that ever made significant improvements in my skin tone, texture and lines was TNS. That said, it was well into my second bottle before the 'wow' factor kicked in. That translates to about 3 months. I also like the fact that, unlike TNS, I can use it around my eyes.
This is how I judge products now..the three month test. Ive tried many (ok maybe ALL) the products out there, some with clinical studies, some not. For example, I hate RA. It makes my skin look waxy,like i belong in a museum.My personal experience is the only thing I use to judge products now. I've also learned patience. If I'd given up on TNS after the first bottle, I would have never realized its potential.
I'll be back in three months,if it's safe to come out.  |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:02 am |
| marina wrote: |
I just popped in to say that I'm enjoying the products very much.I've only been using them for a short time ( 2 weeks) but, at this point, my skin feels and looks healthy. It still too soon to say anything more than that. The only other product that ever made significant improvements in my skin tone, texture and lines was TNS. That said, it was well into my second bottle before the 'wow' factor kicked in. That translates to about 3 months. I also like the fact that, unlike TNS, I can use it around my eyes.
This is how I judge products now..the three month test. Ive tried many (ok maybe ALL) the products out there, some with clinical studies, some not. For example, I hate RA. It makes my skin look waxy,like i belong in a museum.My personal experience is the only thing I use to judge products now. I've also learned patience. If I'd given up on TNS after the first bottle, I would have never realized its potential.
I'll be back in three months,if it's safe to come out. |
It is always safe to post about your positive experience with the products.  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:14 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
@ Bethany: I, and I guess lots of other people as well, received a pm from dr J when the products were launched offering me a 20 % discount.
That was valid april only.
Hmmmmm. Looks like most posters here used that coupon code. Very clever marketing.
I notified Havana of this, because I assumed selling through pm would not be allowed, but apparently it is. I am learning here every day, though not just about skin care. |
I went against the doctors orders and shared that code with Bethany so she is well aware of the fact he sent those out, I guess she missed the use by date! |
I used the 15% off that came with my samples, but I definitely would have used the 20% off on a reorder if it had worked! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:20 am |
| CookieD wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| CookieD wrote: |
I just thought of something that might be interesting to discuss. (maybe on this thread maybe on a new thread) What % of off the shelf products have published clinical research. I'm not talking about ingredients. I'm talking about bottled and ready to sell stuff (formulated)So the research would be on the whole product not just parts.
I know Skinceutical CE, Skinmedica tri retinol,
maybe NIA 24? I know pharmaceuticals (at least in the US) like RA and Accutane. I sure there are others that members more experienced then i am know about. Does anyone think this is worth talking about. |
Nia24 has a TON of clinical studies...one of the reasons it is one of my fav lines! |
Thanks Bethany. Is it on the ready made product or just some of the ingredients. Sorry I don't know.
Also when people started using Vit C and RA did you see results in a few weeks? I know it took me months to have results other then nice glow etc.
and that's seems to be what we are complaining about with AnteAge. I'm not questioning other people's experience, just wondering. |
Cookie, the tests were all on their patented active, but I would have to look to see what they used as the delivery vehicles for the tests.
In the BFT post about TIA, Dr. J said that you need 3 months before you see results from any product...I assume it is the same case for AnteAge. I did see some quick moisturization benefits from the Accelerator, but all moisturizers have an almost immediate improvement aspect there anyway. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:40 am |
| marina wrote: |
I just popped in to say that I'm enjoying the products very much.I've only been using them for a short time ( 2 weeks) but, at this point, my skin feels and looks healthy. It still too soon to say anything more than that. The only other product that ever made significant improvements in my skin tone, texture and lines was TNS. That said, it was well into my second bottle before the 'wow' factor kicked in. That translates to about 3 months. I also like the fact that, unlike TNS, I can use it around my eyes.
This is how I judge products now..the three month test. Ive tried many (ok maybe ALL) the products out there, some with clinical studies, some not. For example, I hate RA. It makes my skin look waxy,like i belong in a museum.My personal experience is the only thing I use to judge products now. I've also learned patience. If I'd given up on TNS after the first bottle, I would have never realized its potential.
I'll be back in three months,if it's safe to come out. |
I think 3 months is the perfect time period.
And you are so right about the patience aspect, but sometimes it sure is hard to keep spending the money and not see those results as soon as we would like. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:54 am |
bethany, wait till you hit the mid 50's when change happens fast..I remember Kassy mentioning it once, she's right. That said, we become more accepting with age....NOT!!! Time isn't on my side, but jumping from one product to another is crazy and expensive. I'm just thankful that I have no sag yet, and dont have lines; except the frownies that come from raising headstrong girls. Some mornings though, I'd love to grab a hot iron and smooth out some chest lines. WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?  |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:59 am |
| jom wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| If you read the AnteAGE website you will see that testing started in September 2011. I'm sure that they tested some of the ingredients like the BM-MSC before that but it looks like September 2011 was the trial of the actual product. |
Well I'm not going to argue the point - but if you are using an exfoliator, I can't see how you can simply rule it out of the equation.
If testing was carried out in September 2011 where are the results? |
Here are the results that they have chosen to share:
http://anteage.com/anteage-clinical-trial/
I assume there is more data but they are trying to get published and can't release everything yet. Hopefully they will be able to release more soon. This is a start up operation, funded with their own money so they have to watch where they spend it. If you're so concerned about the products I think you should just not buy them and wait until they are able to supply you with more data. They have shared what they are able to share for now and we'll just have to wait for the rest. Those of us who are willing to "risk" it will use the products and decide for ourselves if it works for us. We will provide you with our results so there is more data for you. Qualitative yes but data nonetheless. |
I am confused: All over this forum and others, Dr. J has stated over and over he is not selling this, that they have a marketing department that is taking care of all that, he often refers to different names in regards to passing the loyalty information onto (small no money start up companies do not have separate departments). That they are also using a "LARGE UNIVERSITY LAB" to create this ingredient. How would a large University Lab not have data that could be shared.
While it could be a small start up company after all but that is NOT how it has been presented. Dr.J has repeatedly told me, that he is here for the love of science, not a seller, and this is an experiment "his" company is allowing him the luxury of. So the lack of data puzzles me even more.
After reading all this, here's what I got:
we have ONE miracle
a hand full of its nice on my skin
a few it breaks me out
And people paying different prices for the same product ! Perhaps "marketing" should of looked into that before they offered diff discounts |
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:05 am |
| marina wrote: |
| bethany, wait till you hit the mid 50's when change happens fast..I remember Kassy mentioning it once, she's right. That said, we become more accepting with age....NOT!!! Time isn't on my side, but jumping from one product to another is crazy and expensive. I'm just thankful that I have no sag yet, and dont have lines; except the frownies that come from raising headstrong girls. Some mornings though, I'd love to grab a hot iron and smooth out some chest lines. WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN? |
LOL on that hot iron...I am so with you! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:08 am |
| Tiny wrote: |
After reading all this, here's what I got:
we have ONE miracle
a hand full of its nice on my skin
a few it breaks me out
And people paying different prices for the same product ! Perhaps "marketing" should of looked into that before they offered diff discounts |
Pretty much, but as I pointed out earlier to CM, most of us have used it 1-1 1/2 months. Not long enough to have any other results to report.
As for the different % of discount, I guess we could look at it as this is what EDS does also? |
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