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Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:20 pm  |
http://www.plasticsurgeons.co.za/printarticle.asp?ArticleID=31
According to this article there are better derivatives of vitamin c for people with certain skin types. Like they say that L-absorbic acid is too harsh for people with sensitive skin or active breakouts.
But I want to make my own vitamin c serum. Are any of these derivatives he mentions available for sale in pure powder form? Like Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate? I have a hard time finding even just pure L-absorbic acid in the store, seems everything has some complex or other things added to it like bioflavanoids. I don't know if that is bad or helpful, but 90% of the products seem to be vitamin c ester. I don't think I've seen Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate yet.
What do you think? Another thing it says is that vitamin c works like ACH or glycolic acid does. "The pH is naturally low because ascorbic acid acts like an Alpha Hydroxy Acid and softens the glue between the cells of the horny layer and increases the penetration of vitamin C into the deeper layers of the skin."
That can't be good for daily use right? I've heard bad things about AHA's because of that very effect in the protective layer of the skin that it effects. |
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Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:54 am |
| I found the article very interesting and I can now understand why many of the Vit C products do not have a great deal of effect on the skin. Most that are based on L-Ascorbic Acid are probably too old (and therefore much less effective) by the time we get to use them. And certainly by the time we have had them opened for a couple of months, the Vit C would be totally inactive and the only effect we are getting (if any) is from any other additional ingredients. I would love to find out if anyone makes a Vit C product based on Ascorbyl Tetra-isopalmitate. |
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Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:30 am |
Yes, it's interesting. Esp. the part about Ascorbyl palmitate not being effective at the dose it is used in, and not being able to make a product with a high enough dose with it. Yet I think that is the name for the Vitamin C Ester that is so popular now in so many vitamin C serums instead of the absorbic acid because it is so much more stable and non-irritating, but basically not very effective.
I haven't seen the Ascorbyl Tetra-isopalmitate as a main ingredient in products. Only as an ingredient amoung 20 or 60 other ingredients, with no concentration of it given on the product.
I wish I could find it in pure form to make my own. I certainly believe in making my own now. Esp. considering that it's probably more effective, you can do it in small batches, know how old it is and it is like 1/100th of the price even.
I'm a little weary of pure absorbic acid though now because I do have sensitive skin and active breakouts. Has anyone used this successfully with the same type of skin and no irritation or worsening of breakouts? |
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Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:50 pm |
| Quote: |
| Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate |
you can purchase this in powder form from SkinActives.com. I can't vouch for how potent it is, but they have it, and I bought it. It is only soluble in oils and creams, not water based serums. I added it to some cream that I use on my hands and neck but I don't for sure know what it's doing for me.
I have enjoyed using a Vit. C serum called "Triple C" by Professional Solutions. It has 3 kinds of C in it, but only 5% L-ascorbic. Ph 2.5. I can also use C&C by Jason Beckett, without irritation.
But, wow, after reading the posted article, I REALLY want to try ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate! |
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Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:38 pm |
| Hi BYRG - This is an interesting article, but who is the author? I'm not smart enough to challenge his/her claims about the stability and true efficacy of available topical Vit.C products (I wonder about this myself all of the time!), but why do I come away feeling like this may all be a preamble to the launch of his/her own product line? There isn't any acknowledgement of or credit given to specific scientific studies that bolster these claims. There's even talk in the article about developing a product -- I'd like to know if it's available now, since this is dated 2002. |
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Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:28 pm |
I did a search for ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate and found that some companies are now using it. For example, the SkinMedica Vit C is based on this and another company has a line called Niora based on it see:
http://www.niora.com/press2.htm
for the writeup andwww.niora.com to see a list of their products. They also seem to be very reasonably priced. |
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Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:32 am |
Hi bushy - You inspired me to do a search of ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate. It was interesting to discover that it's an ingredient in many many cosmetic products of various sorts. Often, it's not near the top of the list of ingredients, although it IS in the SkinMedica Vit.C product. So many of us Vit.C users have commented about sera "turning" a darker color and wondering about continued potency, etc. It's interesting to note that the SkinMedica Vit.C appears to come in a common tube rather than a pump dispenser. I wonder if this is because of the superior stability of ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate? But having said all this, it seems that l-ascorbic acid's stability can be improved by other ingredients. I'm not smart enough to know or understand what this implies, and if some l-ascorbic acid products are better than others in this regard.
BYRG's article also makes me wonder if it could be beneficial to apply Vit.C serum more often than once a day, since the effectiveness of C can diminish so quickly in a product. Maybe if we applied it in the AM as well as PM, we'd get more benefit while also using up product faster before it degrades too much. It's just a thought.
I've been using SkinCeuticals CE+Ferulic (l-ascorbic acid). I haven't experienced peeling from it, but rather from retinoid use. But maybe this means it's not as effective as I thought!
If the article's claims about the superior stability and efficacy of ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate are true, I wonder why more companies aren't using it in their Vit.C products? In any case, my hat's off to those who make their own! If formulated properly, it would seem that they're getting more benefit and at a much cheaper price. I'm too lazy to bother (so far)! |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:18 am |
| Quote: |
| If the article's claims about the superior stability and efficacy of ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate are true... |
What efficacy claims are in this article? Did I miss something? I didn't see any claims that were backed up by scientific data or studies, but I would be very interested to read some. By the way, I posted this article on another web forum (skin-related), and the moderator said she did a search on PubMed for ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate, and the search revealed nothing. No studies or articles whatsoever. Contrary to MAP, L-ascorbic acid etc., which have scores of studies about their efficacy. |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:02 am |
| Thank you PocoLoco - I'm relieved to read your comment since I just purchased some more SC CE+Ferulic right before I read the article cited by BYRG! BTW, it does state that ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate is more effective for "collagen deposition, melanin formation, and antioxidant protection". If true, I was ready to switch to the SkinMedica product, which is a lot cheaper than SC. But anymore, I look at what physicians state with a jaded eye, especially since trying some Dr. Perricone products that didn't live up to his claims (and are quite pricey). |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:41 am |
| Yep...I'm with you on that. The delivery system is critical to efficacy, as is the potency of the ingredients. Perricone's got harsh detergents in their cleansers too, which is quite shocking when they purport to be the cutting edge in skin care. |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:56 pm |
I tend to believe the article at this stage based on my own experiences. The article stated that L-Ascorbic acid is not the most suitable for some types of skin and is not suitable for acne.
I think the biggest issue is with stability and there are many articles that back this up in relation to L-Ascorbic Acid.
The ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate is fat soluble and stable. The Skinmedica Vit C is a cream in a black tube so it more than likely has a good shelf life as the tube is only small and would be used up in probably 6 weeks.
I think the issue relates to cost in that ascorbic acid is cheap (ask the diy'ers) and is therefore widely used. Ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate is probably a lot more expensive and maybe not as widely available so it is rarely used.
The article does not promote a product, nor does it state that you should not use the other forms of Vit C, only that they have a shelf life. It is a pity that most companies don't put 'use by' dates on their products. |
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Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:08 pm |
I can vouch for the color not turning with SkinMedica Vitamin C Complex because I have been through many tubes since it is my Vit C of choice. Once I opened a new tube (they are navy blue btw) thinking I had mistakenly dropped mine in the waste basket. I found the old one almost a year later and it still looked and felt fresh as ever even though I had opened it every day for about 2 months before I misplaced it. That was impressive to me so I don't budge from it. I heard it is more stable because it is silicone encapsulated. I think LRP has a similar formula. SkinMedica also claims it is time-released. The tube lasts about 3-4 months because it only takes a bit as it spreads so easily because of the silicone.
-Cheri |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:22 pm |
Hi bushy - I'm 54 with normal skin and no acne problems, so the aspects of the article that relate to acneic skin aren't a real concern for me. But potency and stability ARE concerns, and I may give the SkinMedica product a try someday. I couldn't use it during the upcoming spring and summer months when it's so humid here because it's a cream, but definitely in winter. I was frankly surprised at the price since the sometimes-touted TNS Recovery product is very expensive and I figured everything else in the line would be too. But I AM concerned about what was said about peeling and pigmentation. I already worry about this since I use retinoids. I hope someday there are really effective sunscreens developed that aren't as oily as the ones I use. I guess I'd have to say that retinoids, sunscreens and Vit.C sera are the three main products I use regularly these days, kind of the Holy Trinity for me, and they're the types of products I'm most concerned about as far as their true effectiveness goes. Time and money are precious and I don't want to waste either.
And Cheri - Since you're a long-time SkinMedica user, do you have any freckles that've lightened since you've been using it? If so, how long did it take? This is one of the main reasons I started using Vit.C sera last summer -- to help lighten mine! The article said pigmentation "melts away" with ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate, which caught my eye. But I realize that there are various types of pigmentation and some are more stubborn than others. |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:49 pm |
| m.april wrote: |
Hi bushy - I'm 54 with normal skin and no acne problems, so the aspects of the article that relate to acneic skin aren't a real concern for me. But potency and stability ARE concerns, and I may give the SkinMedica product a try someday. I couldn't use it during the upcoming spring and summer months when it's so humid here because it's a cream, but definitely in winter. I was frankly surprised at the price since the sometimes-touted TNS Recovery product is very expensive and I figured everything else in the line would be too. But I AM concerned about what was said about peeling and pigmentation. I already worry about this since I use retinoids. I hope someday there are really effective sunscreens developed that aren't as oily as the ones I use. I guess I'd have to say that retinoids, sunscreens and Vit.C sera are the three main products I use regularly these days, kind of the Holy Trinity for me, and they're the types of products I'm most concerned about as far as their true effectiveness goes. Time and money are precious and I don't want to waste either.
And Cheri - Since you're a long-time SkinMedica user, do you have any freckles that've lightened since you've been using it? If so, how long did it take? This is one of the main reasons I started using Vit.C sera last summer -- to help lighten mine! The article said pigmentation "melts away" with ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate, which caught my eye. But I realize that there are various types of pigmentation and some are more stubborn than others. |
I never did have any pigmentation so I can't vouch for that. I've used a heavy sunscreen daily for years even when no one else did. I use a retinoid too and alternate it nightly with Prevage and then use Vit C each morning.
I really think you could use SkinMedica because it's really a light silicone gel, much less moisturizing and not nearly as oily as SC Ferulic. It could almost double as a primer as it's so silky. I have a good size sample tube that has never been opened if you want to try it. Actually I think it's about 1/4 regular size tube! Just pm me your address if you want it and I can get it out to you in tomorrows mail.
-Cheri |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:59 pm |
| There is a sample of vitamin c complex available atwww.skin-etc.com currently. I ordered their retinol Complex sample as well. (You need to purchase something over $20 and you can get 5 samples. It's cool...) |
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normal to combination (T-zone), medium tone, occasional break out, love organic skin care |
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