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Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:21 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
Kasey,
Thanks for posting your recipe, sorry another question how much do you make at one time ie:
one weeks worth two weeks worth? Do you apply once a day or twice?
OK THAT WAS ACTUALLY TWO QUESTIONS
Thanks again,
DM |
I seldom make this one, because I prefer the water based serum with L-AA. When I do make it (usually in the winter), I make a 2 or 3oz batch and use it head to toe after a bath a few times per week.
It's very stable, as *most* bacteria don't favor this environment, so it's safe to make in larger batches. IMHO! |
_________________ ♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:30 pm |
Thanks yet again,
I have used the water soluble and just mixed it with my moisturizer daily I had my pharmacist order a bottle for me.
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:54 pm |
Has anyone looked at United States Patent 5853741 ( Vitamin C delivery system )? It discusses a silicone-based delivery system for Vitamin C ingredients, and mentions Cyclomethicone. It also provides related patents that can be reviewed, for the "scientifically inclined" ( it's beyond my level of understanding).
I just noticed that this particular patent lists Chesebrough-Pond's USA Co. as the assignee (not SkinMedica) but it may be of some interest to some of you.
Perhaps Bearefootgirl could ask the Doctor on her other forum to explain it. HTH |
_________________ Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:11 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
I am not questioning you as to what your understanding of what all these studies are telling us, it just seems illogical that it is the water is the culprit.
I am sure there is some answer somewhere, I just haven't found a reasonable answer yet. |
There's no fear of questioning my understanding - because I don't have any!!
So what you're questioning is why is the Vit C powder potent until it's mixed with water? Seems like a good question to me. Of course, there are a lot of people who say squeezed orange juice loses all of its goodness unless it is drunk immediately.
With all our discussion on Green Tea lately, I also found a recipe using it along with Vitamin C. It says to heat the ingredients - I thought that heating Vitamin C was a complete no no. More confusion. I'll dig up the recipe and post it as it might be of interest. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:19 pm |
Here it is - I'm sorry but I've forgotten where I found it from. It wasn't the Elsom Research website (but they do have some interesting research on nanotechnology):
Moisturizing Wrinkle Cream with Green Tea and Vitamins
This is a very simple recipe for an emulsion-based moisturizing cream cosmeceutical,
combining water-based and oil-based ingredients. Based on these ingredients alone, such an emulsion would ordinarily not form. To combine the ingredients and hold the emulsion together, a chemical emulsifier (such as glyceryl monostearate, cetearyl alcohol, or sodium stearoyl lactylate) would be required to stop the oil and water phases from separating. Chemical emulsifiers such as AquaSapone’s AS102 advertise that their use adds a “slick” feel to the finished product. If the natural texture of the combined oil and water phase ingredients is desired, while avoiding harsh emulsifiers, an alternative emulsification technology is needed. Using nano-emulsification technology available from Elsom Research, oil and water phases can be combined into stable, ultra-fine droplet emulsions without the use of chemical emulsifiers. In addition, the tiny droplets (Dispercicles™) produced by nano-emulsification are fast absorbing and too small to clog pores, a problem likely to occur with oil-based formulations. Other options include encapsulated Vitamin A. Elsom Research can provide proprietary nano-encapsulated Vitamin A in vehicles including cyclodextrin and in Nanosomes™.
Yield: 200 grams
Phase 1-- Water:
· Water (76%): 152g
· Green tea extract (2%): 4g
· Vitamin C (5%): 10g
Phase 2-- Oil:
· Grapeseed, apricot kernel, and sweet almond oil (22%): 43.6g
· Vitamin A (0.2%): 0.4g
Phase 3-- Preservative:
18
· Rosemary Oil Extract (preservative and anti-oxidant): 1 drop
· 15 drops Grapefruit Seed Extract (natural antiseptic)
Procedure:
The procedure for combining oil and water phases with the help of a chemical emulsifier
is simple: heat both phases to melt the emulsifier, then let the combination cool, then add the preservative, mix, and pour into jars. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:42 am |
I found this quote from Dr. Geoffrey Heber of Ultraceuticals:
[i]Ultra C23 and Ultra C Sheer use a CSIRO developed delivery system. It's been known for a long time that water makes ascorbic acid unstable. A CSIRO scientist discovered that if small enough particles of ascorbic acid were put into a water free vehicle there was penetration of ascorbic acid into the skin, as measured with radio-labelled ascorbic acid. Ultraceuticals has exclusive rights to use the patent granted on this technology. We have ascorbic acid milled to particles smaller than a few microns in size for our products. I did not work with the scientists who discovered the technology, but I wish I did.
BF |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:39 am |
Interesting - here's the product blurb:
Ultra C Sheer Facial Cream contains 20% pure vitamin C in a CSIRO patented delivery system. Unique non-greasy formulation, ideal for treating the signs of ageing in combination or breakout-prone skin. Pure Vitamin C stimulates collagen production and reduces the appearance of ageing, also has photoaging preventative effects. Ultra C Sheer Facial Cream is perfect for those wanting an intense anti-ageing treatment but who find the original Ultra C Treatment Cream too heavy for their skin.
INGREDIENTS:
Active ingredients: Ascorbic acid 20% w/w. Preservative: Hydroxybenzoates. Also Contains: Dicapryl carbonate, C18-36 acid glycol ester, butylated hydroxytoluene, cyclomethicone, dimethicone crosspolymer, ascorbyl palmitate, propylene glycol, polyglyceryl-2 dipolyhydroxystearate, macrogol 600, propyl gallate, ceresin, silicon dioxide, d-alpha-tocopherol, soya oil, cetyl acetate, acetylated lanolin alcohol, tocopherols concentrate-mixed (low alpha type)
What do you suppose radio-labelled ascorbic acid is? |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:39 am |
LOL,
I wonder how fine we could get it in a mortal&pestil?
MY HEAD REALLY HURTS!!!!
Since they grow in abundance here I think I will buy baskets of oranges and just hold them against my face for a few minutes.....
DM
I have not a clue what radio labeled ascorbic acid is. Could be they zap it with radio waves.
I want to know as well how GreenTea retains any after it is steeped in boiling water.
So much contradiction in all of this, then again my IQ is feeling like it is shrinking more and more so plain and simple I don't get it!!!
I KNOW THIS DOES NOT HELP
Sorry
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:51 am |
Keliu,
My point is and we may yet need a botanist to answer this is all fruits with Vitamin C also must contain water or they die, so do all plants that contain it have some magic way of keeping the Vitamin C and the water separate???
Rona
JUST MY SIMPLISTIC LOGIC AT WORK. I AM NOW DRINK ING A VERY GUILT FREE MUG OF COFFEE. A REALLY HUGE MUG! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:18 am |
http://www.xpressnet.com/bhealthy/vitaminc.html
VITAMIN C
L-ASCORBIC ACID
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE
4 - YEAR STUDY REPORT - EFFECTIVE REGARDING:
CANCER
CHELATION
HEART DISEASE
LETHARGY
CATARACTS
DEPRESSION
STRENGTH
BRUISING
HEALING
PALLOR
NOMINAL LIFE
EXTENSION
AND MORE ! ! !
IMPORTANT INFORMATION (ADDENDED)
Vitamin C is a product that is prevalent in many foods and produced by an abundance of chemical companies. The chemical side of Vitamin C is what is basically addressed here. Known by most scientists, but virtually unknown by the public and most doctors is the fact that Vitamin C has two totally and distinctly separate sides, as many products do. The two sides consist of "L"-Ascorbic Acid, which is the (-) side, and D-Ascorbic Acid, which is the (+) side. The L side of Vitamin C is the active side, and is the side which is beneficial to mankind. The D-side of Vitamin C is designated as useless and discarded by the body, as most research shows. People ingesting Vitamin C would only benefit from the "L" side of Vitamin C. Vitamin C is not a stable substance, as some people believe, and the L and D sides are subject to change with moisture an if water is added.
Example: In an orange, the Vitamin C is primarily the L side, and remains so in the surroundings of the orange. However, when the juice has been extracted from the orange for a period of days, the "L" side changes to D and the juice will eventually even off at 50% D and 50% L Vitamin C content. Frozen concentrate orange juice, when thawed and water added, will produce exactly the same action. The exact same action takes place again when Vitamin C is added by manufacturers to juices or drinks.
The assumption the public is under is that the Vitamin C added as a supplement during the manufacture of any liquid is all beneficial, which is a myth. The facts are that adding Vitamin C to drinks may constitute only 50-60% "L", with the remainder being the D side. Although it is believed that the body discards the D side of Vitamin C, further research should be undertaken to confirm this theory, as it may reveal that in some individuals, an abundance of the D side of Vitamin C could conceivably be detrimental to a person's health.
PURITY:
A number of companies produce Vitamin C with varying degrees of purity levels of L-Ascorbic Acid. However, in our research, our company was only able to come up with one producer that manufactures L-Ascorbic Acid at an average consistent 99.9% purity level. In turn, we found only a few companies using the 99.9% L-Ascorbic Acid when producing Vitamin C pills for sale to the public. Additionally, most all of the pill manufacturers add ingredients to the L-Ascorbic Acid with the most prevalent being rose hips, along with other so-called nutrients. In the manufacture of pills, there are a variety of substances added, such as starch, sucrose, talc, povidone, and a battery of other foreign body substances to bind the pills together. We have found that the average make-up of a pill being manufactured today, for anything, is comprised of at least 25% pill fillers which hold the pill together. These pill filler substances are comprised, for the most part, of products and chemicals not normally ingested into the human body as food. These pill fillers are not in the best interest of the recipient, and may very well be detrimental to overall health in the long term. They, in themselves, may cause side effects. As Vitamin C is taken by many people in doses of 1,000 mg per day, they would be ingesting 250 mg of pill fillers, or when taking 10,000 mg per day, ingesting 2,500 mg of pill fillers, on average. Pill filler purities go virtually uncontrolled by our F.D.A.. Pill fillers added to Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) can, and usually do, cause the Ascorbic Acid to break down and "go off". The same instance occurs in a majority of cases when so-called nutrients are added. This further causes side effects and causes a less beneficial effect from the Ascorbic Acid.
STABILITY OF VITAMIN C:
Discount houses and mail order firms, as well as the majority of pharmacies, sell Vitamin C under all kinds of names an at very competitive prices. The producers of these pills range from people in their garage producing pills to legitimate companies. Our company purchased, at random, 1,000 mg Vitamin C tablets from three different nationwide discount stores and pharmacies, different brands. We also purchased mail order Vitamin C powder from two different so-called legitimate producers selling powder to the public. We purchased Vitamin C with additives and without. All five samples of Vitamin C proved unstable and "went off" in a relatively short period of time, while effectiveness decreased accordingly. The very worst product purchased came from a large nationwide discount chain and was produced by a laboratory in the western part of the U.S.. This Vitamin C tested had no additives, other than pill fillers at 250 mg per tablet. Our investigation showed the product was pilled in or about January 1991. By June of 1991, the product was proving unstable. By December of 1992, anyone even looking at the product would have thrown it out, but stamped on the label of this unstable Vitamin C was an expiration date of July 1995. L-Ascorbic Acid at 99.9% purity is, in itself, an extremely stable substance subject only to high moisture. In our testing at 99.9% purity, under normal conditions at room temperature, in an unsealed bottle being opened twice daily for 2 1/2 years the product proved to be extremely stable.
PURITY INCREASES EFFECTIVENESS:
In most cases (with very few exceptions), our company has found that the purer the active ingredient is in products, whether it be a pharmaceutical or a vitamin, the more potent and stable the product remains, and thus the more effective the product is. In the few cases where active ingredients, when extracted or synthesized, prove to be unstable at their highest purity levels, our research indicates that when a stabilizing compound is used and kept at IT's highest purity level, the original active ingredient is much more stable than if less pure stabilizing compounds were used. What is being done by the producers of Vitamin C is that the product is so competitive in pricing that many manufacturers cut quality (purity) to produce a cheap, less pure product, without informing the consumer that the product is much less effective, unbeknownst to the consumer. Not only are the general public and doctors unaware of the L and D sides of Vitamin C, as well as reduced effectiveness when added to juices, they are "also" unaware of the effectiveness regarding purity ratio of the L-Ascorbic Acid. Purity levels are not required by the F.D.A. on labels of any food products, vitamins or pharmaceuticals. That, in itself, is detrimental to the public in most instances. The public, and a majority of doctors, do not realize that it takes considerably less L-Ascorbic Acid at 99.9% purity to produce the same effects as a good deal more of the less pure, less stable Vitamin C offered in most markets today. The price of Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid) at 99.9% purity may be higher; however, when it comes to the effectiveness, it may prove to be cheaper, as the amount ingested is considerably less, as our research revealed.
DISPENSING, ADMINISTRATION AND INDICATIONS:
Our research indicates that Vitamin C should not be pilled. It should be dispensed by the producer at a humidity level not exceeding 40% either into capsules or powder, and sold to the public. To be most effective, the 99.9% L-Ascorbic Acid should be taken once or twice daily from 200 mg to 3,000 mg, mixed or taken with condensed orange juice made with distilled water only. People allergic to orange juice should mix or take it only with distilled water. Our research indicates that if L-Ascorbic Acid is taken in this manner, it is at it's highest potency and most effectiveness, without the majority of side effects attributed to it. For years, D.E.D.I. has researched clinical trials regarding Vitamin C, and has additionally conducted private trials with doctors and scientists using L-Ascorbic Acid at 99.9% purity, taken with concentrated orange juice and distilled water. OUR RESEARCH HAS SHOWN L-ASCORBIC ACID, ADMINISTERED IN VARYING AMOUNTS TO BE EFFECTIVE IN REDUCING RISKS OF CANCER AT AN AVERAGE OF 20% IN MALES AND 20% IN FEMALES, AND IN REDUCING RISKS OF HEART DISEASE BY 40% IN MEN AND 20% IN WOMEN. D.E.D.I.'S RESEARCH ALSO SHOWS EFFECTIVENESS IN DEPRESSION, BRUISING, PALLOR, CATARACTS, COMMON COLD, FLU, INFECTIONS, LETHARGY, STRENGTH, HEALING OF WOUNDS, CHELATION, AS WELL AN NOMINAL LIFE EXTENSION.
INDICATIONS FOR CHELATION:
Private trials done by doctors and scientists using 99.9% purity L-Ascorbic Acid with distilled water and concentrated orange juice have reported some remarkable preliminary findings regarding chelation. Dosages of 3,000 mg. per day are indicating the removal of aluminum from brain cells. This could be a big discovery in the relationship to Alzheimer's Disease and other neurological disorders. Further research, along with formal trials, should be conducted to confirm our preliminary findings. Also reported was that people scheduled for by-pass surgery due to blockage of arterial walls were treated only by administering body tolerance levels of 99.9% pure L-Ascorbic Acid daily, and 30 mg aspirin daily for eight weeks. The need for by-pass surgery dissipated, as arterial wall blockage was reduced, DRAMATICALLY, in some instances. This points out the already proven clinical trials that show a dramatic decrease in heart diseases attributed to normal use of normal Vitamin C. Again, further research, along with formal trials, should be conducted to confirm our preliminary findings. It is our opinion that producers of Vitamin C should state on their labels the amount of L-Ascorbic Acid in their Vitamin C, along with the purity level of the L-Ascorbic Acid, as it most assuredly makes a substantial difference in the effectiveness. Additionally, it should not be pilled.
Maybe this explains it!
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:54 am |
Thanks, DarkMoon,
I've been adding an orange to my green smoothies now and then, but I'm going to start adding one on a daily basis. |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:27 am |
I noticed that bulkactives.com also has a recipe for an anhydrous formula - you may want to message them for further details on efficacy, ingredients, formulation details, etc.
BF |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:42 am |
Thanks,
Barefootgirl, I will check it out and maybe email them as well.
I think I am going to start eating more Oranges straight from local grower! LOL
or maybe some sweet red peppers with dip, they actually have more vitamin C. Wonder how badly they would stain our faces in a mask???
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:53 am |
This is really making me wonder, if you can barley find an effective Vitamin C supplement for internal use, just how effective is the ascorbic acid all these creams and serums are using in their formulations to begin with?
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:07 am |
Here's the recipe from BulkActives. Apparently, they have a new silicone base for disolving actives in:
Anhydrous Double C with E
Phase A
Silicone base 77% 38.50gm
L-ascorbic acid 15% 7.50gm
Phase B
Ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate 7% 3.50gm
Vitamin E (capsule) 1% 0.50gm
Total Amount 100% 50gm
Mix L-ascorbic with silicone base, use a spatula to make sure all lumps are gone.
Combine Phase A and B, mix well.
*Note that this recipe uses both L-Ascorbic Acid and Oil Soluble Vit C - which is supposed to be better than using one or the other. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:17 am |
Thanks,
Now if I can get the math right that sounds like a plan! Since I avoid the sun as much as possible and can use it at night it couldn't hurt to give it a shot!
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:21 am |
DarkMoon wrote: |
This is really making me wonder, if you can barley find an effective Vitamin C supplement for internal use, just how effective is the ascorbic acid all these creams and serums are using in their formulations to begin with? |
Well this is the "Great Debate" - many scientists claim that Vitamin C creams and serums are, in fact, useless. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:23 am |
I may have to write and ask them about the use of silicones in their recipe.
BF |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:43 am |
I agree Barefootgirl,
I also wonder just what is in the silicone base?
I've always know about the stability issues but this getting quite complicated! There has to be an answer!
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:51 am |
Keliu,
I hear you, and it amazes me all the hype and incredible claims cosmetic companies get away with. Just how much money has been wasted if in fact all the effective properties are gone by the time it hits the shelves.
We need some real answers, but it always seems there is one scientific study contradicting the other!
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:47 pm |
A couple of points which may help you (or which may confuse the matter further):
"Radio labelled ascorbic acid" ... I think this just means ascorbic acid tagged with a mildly radioactive molecule, so the ascorbic acid can be readily identified on (for example) an x-ray or similar device. This is commonly done in some medical tests ... without the inclusion of the radioactive substance, it is impossible to see how a substance moves through the body. If you have had a diagnostic x-ray, and were told first to fast, then given "something" to drink prior to an x-ray, you most likely received a mildly radio-active solution. I believe there are actual devices/machines which can measure penetration of substances into the skin (ie past the statum corneum).
I am sure there is a patent for micronizing ascorbic acid (perhaps a few different ones), which allow the C to penetrate the skin when combined with a water free vehicle, as stated bu Ultraceuticals. So what is the key to all of this .... the size of the l-ascorbic acid, or the delivery system (ie the silicone base)??? I have no clue.
Another question ... for those of you who formulate your own products and purchase ingredients ... is your l-ascorbic acid powder/crystals micronized fine enough to pass through the nonhydrous molecules? (I did see the size given as 38 microns in one of the patents, and got lost after that point ... just too technical for me).
Nanosomes and liposomes, to the best of my knowledge, encapsulate an ingredient (meaning the ingredient is trapped inside the sphere). Over time, the sphere dissolves, releasing the ingredient; the spheres are not uniform in size, and breakdown at different rates. Perhaps this is "time-released".
It has always been my understanding that water is needed to absorb/activate the C. If no water is included in these formulas, I can only assume that the water that exists naturally in our epidermis/skin is the source.
I agree ... a lot of marketing hype when it comes to delivery systems and nonhydrous formulas. Each company claims to have the only system/formula that works. (the transdermal delivery comment was good for a laugh).
As far as using a mortar and pestle goes to make your vitamin c powder finer ... I have read this has been done on the smart skincare forum; it is difficult and can be dangerous. It takes a very long time; a face mask and gloves are recommended.
I don't understand much of the technology; I just use a manufactured vitamin C product (I don't formulate my own, and never will) and hope it does something positive (and nothing negative!). |
_________________ Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:52 pm |
Oh you just made me remember about the stories friends ect. have conveyed about Barium drinks and enemas. My brain is a bit short circuited, major sleep deprivation on a long term basis. What you wrote does make sense, I was not connecting the dots on that one. This has really turned into quite the technical thread!
I was really joking about the home micronizing, I don't have the time to devote to that right now!
You have me pondering the molecular size that Bulkactives is selling and will their base will deliver. More research ahead!
Thanks for the very informative post.
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:16 pm |
Thanks, Keliu, for the recipe from bulkactives. The ingredients for the monistat gel are:
Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone, Dimethicone/Vinyl dimethicone Crosspolymer, Silica, tocophereyl acetate, Trisiloxane
It looks like the ingredients for the bulkactives Silicone Gel are:
Dimethicone (and) Cetearyl Dimethicone Crosspolymer
Do you (or anyone) think the Monistat would work in the bulkactives recipe based on the ingredients of both products?
Thanks. |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:31 pm |
Skippie,
We are all going a bit batty trying to figure out what if anything will work!!!
DM |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:41 pm |
Lacy53 wrote: |
I just use a manufactured vitamin C product (I don't formulate my own, and never will) and hope it does something positive (and nothing negative!). |
Lacy, what vitamin C product are you currently using? |
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