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Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:13 pm  |
| rileygirl wrote: |
Actually, Firefox, you have made my point exactly. This is what I think he is doing, laying the foundation and doing marketing. So, if that is the "barefacedtruth" why not come right out and say that? I would rather have him be honest up front than look sneaky in the end.
Also, I have double checked, and there is no where that gives his credentials. Before you became so enamored with the good doctor, did you check out his credentials at all? |
You have DrJ's full name, basic qualifications, occupation, company name and where I claim to 'know' him from; presumably you know how to use Google and the Skincaretalk search function? WTH do your suspicions have to do with my research skills? I am not a primary source, so how exactly would me telling you what I know alleviate your concerns? You know even less about me than you do about DrJ!
Looks like the good doctor is more respectful with forum rules and protocol than the Murad lackey, better spelling and grammar too.  |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:18 pm |
| aswong wrote: |
rileygirl: I also cannot find the doctors credentials on the web.
The test results of Lifeline has be subjectively tested by BioScreen.
(Skin hydration by Corneometer 93% demonstrated statistically significant improvement
Skin elasticity by Cutometer 73% showed significant improvement
Skin brightness by Chromameter 63% showed significant improvement
Appearance of fine lines and coarse wrinkles 66% reported significant improvement.) BioScreen is registered with the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) and is ISO 9001 certified.
Dr. Manny Alvarez and Fox News' Health Talk reported that studies prove that Lifeline's stem cell extracts deliver results similar to collagen injections.
ISCO is associated with 8 reputable research institutes such as UC San Francisco and Irvine etc.
ISCO has given numerous presentations to reputable stem cell conferences.
BFT explanations of science why Lifeline do not work maybe misleading.
I would like to have more evidence about George Taylor, M.D.'s and John Sanderson, M.D.'s expertise in stem cell research or published paper. I am patiently waiting! |
First, aswong has entirely mischaracterized BFT's discussion of Lifeline. BFT is looking at Lifeline but has not yet seen basic things like a list of ingredients. We criticized on marketplace execution, like an uninformative website. We pointed to very precarious financial condition (they are publicly traded on the pink sheets. Then in the end we said that we wanted the products to work, and hoped for more information. We work with stem cells, we know their power.
Second, aswong has ignored the post above his/hers in which I said there wqas a complete bio. available, but that I do not have privileges to post URL's here. They screen them out. If aswong wants to PM me, I would be happy to share the URL.
Third, aswong give the marketing laundry list. May all be true, but to date nobody has supplied me with the studies. Seems like aswong is more concerned with checking me out than checking out the company claims.
I think turnabout is fair play. I would like to request aswong share the same information with me. What is your relationship with ISCO? You seem to want to defend the party line, but why? Are you part of the company? Are you an investor concerned about the falling stock price?
You have my disclosures, and can have my full bio. Can we have yours?
I'm patiently awaiting ... |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:29 pm |
| aswong wrote: |
BioScreen is registered with the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) and is ISO 9001 certified.
Dr. Manny Alvarez and Fox News' Health Talk reported that studies prove that Lifeline's stem cell extracts deliver results similar to collagen injections.
ISCO is associated with 8 reputable research institutes such as UC San Francisco and Irvine etc.
ISCO has given numerous presentations to reputable stem cell conferences.
BFT explanations of science why Lifeline do not work maybe misleading.
I would like to have more evidence about George Taylor, M.D.'s and John Sanderson, M.D.'s expertise in stem cell research or published paper. I am patiently waiting! |
1. ISO9001 is a mark of consistency, not quality. Is FDA and DEA registration a mark of safety or efficacy?
2. Media article is not a primary source, it is entertainment/ interpretation/ opinion
3. Consider reading some of the published papers linked to from the BFT site and make up your own mind
4. Alternatively head over to Skincaretalk and find out what DragoN, JPshogun, Fawnie and the other 'mad scientists' think of BFT
5. No need to waste any more time: Google Scholar, PubMed, American Medical Association, whatever the US equivalent of Companies House is. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:30 pm |
| JonnyNJ wrote: |
The ingredients in the LifeLine Skincare products are:
December 2010
Day Serum
Active ingredients: Avobenzone 3%, Oxtinoxate 7.4%, Oxybenzone 3%.
Inactive ingredients: Aqua (Water), Stearic Acid, Ubiquinone, Pluripotent Non-Embryonic Stem Cell
Extract, Glyceryl Stearate SE, Cetyl Alcohol, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Troxerutin, Choline Chloride, DCalcium
Pantothenate, Folic Acid, Nicotinamide, Pyridoxal Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Thiamine
Hydrochloride, i-Inositol, Sodium Chloride, Glycerin, Tremella Funciformis Sporocarp Extract, Sodium
PCA, Isoquercetin, Vaccinium, Angustilolium (Blueberry) Fruit Extract, Retinyl Palmitate, Tocopherol,
Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Cholecalciferol, Polysorbate 60, Phenoxyethanol, Polysorbate 20, Sorbitan
Sesquiolate, Ethylhexyl Glycerin, Caprylyl Glycol, Propylene Glycol, Hexylene Glycol, Disodium
EDTA, Carbomer, Triethanolamine.
Night Serum
Ingredients: Aqua (Water), Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Pluripotent Non-Embryonic Stem Cell Extract,
Stearic Acid, Glyceryl Stearate SE, Ubiquinone, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Cetyl
Alcohol, Troxerutin, Choline Chloride, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Folic Acid, Nicotinamide, Pyridoxal
Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Thiamine Hydrochloride, i-Inositol, Sodium Chloride, Glycerin, Tocopheryl
Acetate, Retinyl Palmitate, Tremella Funciformis Sporocarp Extract, Isoquercetin, Vaccinium
Angustilolium (Blueberry) Fruit Extract, Camellia Oleifera Leaf Extract, Sodium PCA, Polysorbate 60,
Phenoxyethanol, Polysorbate 20, Sorbitan Sesquiolate, Ethylhexyl Glycerin, Caprylyl Glycol, Carbomer,
Propylene Glycol, Hexylene Glycol, Disodium EDTA, Triethanolamine. |
Ingredient list posted earlier in this thread. |
_________________
42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:32 pm |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
You have DrJ's full name, basic qualifications, occupation, company name and where I claim to 'know' him from; presumably you know how to use Google and the Skincaretalk search function? WTH do your suspicions have to do with my research skills? I am not a primary source, so how exactly would me telling you what I know alleviate your concerns? You know even less about me than you do about DrJ!
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I think you are getting way too worked up and defensive and have completely missed the point of my post. I know you are not a primary source.
You are correct. I certainly do know how to use google and I do know how to research. It is amazing the information you can find out with some research. |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:46 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
You have DrJ's full name, basic qualifications, occupation, company name and where I claim to 'know' him from; presumably you know how to use Google and the Skincaretalk search function? WTH do your suspicions have to do with my research skills? I am not a primary source, so how exactly would me telling you what I know alleviate your concerns? You know even less about me than you do about DrJ!
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I think you are getting way too worked up and defensive and have completely missed the point of my post. I know you are not a primary source.
You are correct. I certainly do know how to use google and I do know how to research. It is amazing the information you can find out with some research. |
rileygirl: please also see that in my previous two posts I offered a 2 pp bio. online, but I don't have URL pasting privileges here. You can PM me for it.
Please also read my post from this morning (back a page) and do respond to my response about what my motives are in being here (or at BFT).
I am trying to satisfy your desire to know, and have no problem with your asking. I invite the scrutiny, it shows you care about the truth. So do I. I'll go so far as to say we should all have more disclosure. I'd like to know your stake in all this. I'm sure its an honorable quest, I'm just curious (like you). Certainly would like to know about folks like aswong, who pop up with what sound like ads, not facts for examination.
I enjoy the discourse here. Just trying to elevate the debate a bit. |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:24 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
I think you are getting way too worked up and defensive and have completely missed the point of my post. I know you are not a primary source.
You are correct. I certainly do know how to use google and I do know how to research. It is amazing the information you can find out with some research. |
Defensive of what? Actually I am completely bewildered as to why you ask questions to which you neither want nor need a response. And mildly irritated that people (plural) who are too lazy to research are being impolite to a new member. Not the usual EDS attitude more TIA style, don't you think?
Why post "Does anyone know what Dr. John and Dr. George's credentials are?" when you have plenty of Google-fu and are aware EDS is not a primary source? And why post "Before you became so enamored with the good doctor, did you check out his credentials at all?" instead of "Thank you, but I was hoping for ...."? |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:54 pm |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
Defensive of what? Actually I am completely bewildered as to why you ask questions to which you neither want nor need a response. |
I don't know what you are getting defensive over, but your post certainly indicated that you were. And why would you think I don't want or need a response to my question? Why would I ask if I did not want a response? That makes no sense at all. End of discussion over this. |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:58 pm |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
Defensive of what? Actually I am completely bewildered as to why you ask questions to which you neither want nor need a response. And mildly irritated that people (plural) who are too lazy to research are being impolite to a new member. Not the usual EDS attitude more TIA style, don't you think?
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Actually FireFox, as a new member of the forum you probably don't realize that medical doctors have posted on this forum in the past and have always been quite willing to provide CV information when asked. I can recall off the top of my head at least 5 doctors who have visited here in the recent past (before you joined the forum) so Riley's question isn't all that unusual. I don't think it is impolite at all. After all, this is an online community and occasionally people do exaggerate or lie about their credentials. Since Dr. J has identified himself as an MD (both his user name and his website make this claim) I think the question is appropriate. JMHO
As an example. Dr. Neal Schultz visited EDS a while ago. Here is his complete CV which he willingly provided:
http://www.nealschultzmd.com/sites/all/files/neal-schultz-md-cv.pdf |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:06 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
rileygirl: please also see that in my previous two posts I offered a 2 pp bio. online, but I don't have URL pasting privileges here. You can PM me for it.
Please also read my post from this morning (back a page) and do respond to my response about what my motives are in being here (or at BFT).
I am trying to satisfy your desire to know, and have no problem with your asking. I invite the scrutiny, it shows you care about the truth. So do I. I'll go so far as to say we should all have more disclosure. I'd like to know your stake in all this. I'm sure its an honorable quest, I'm just curious (like you). Certainly would like to know about folks like aswong, who pop up with what sound like ads, not facts for examination.
I enjoy the discourse here. Just trying to elevate the debate a bit. |
Thank you, Dr. J. I will send you a PM for your bio. I did see your response on the previous page to me, and I actually thought you were quite nasty (uncalled for), and I was not going to respond to you. I appreciate your change of tone in your most recent post. If I remember correctly, I have asked you for your credentials, and if/what product you were/are going to sell. I see nothing wrong with my questions and I am sorry some of your supporters have taken offense to some honest questions from me. I certainly don't feel my questions are offensive, and I don't believe I have shown you any disrespect.
My stake in all of this? Well, I am a skin care consumer. I have spent thousands of dollars on useless products, bought into the scams, and quite frankly I am tired of it. Skeptical, you bet. I have been at EDS a long time and I have researched a lot of the so-called experts that have come on here to share their knowledge (sell products), as well as their backgrounds and quite frankly what I discovered made me sick. Yes, I do care about the truth.
So, why my questions to you? Well, here you come, out of nowhere it would seem, wanting all of us rely on you for our information on ingredients. Before I can rely on you, I need to know what your background is, and why I should. Simple as that. |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:44 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
Actually FireFox, as a new member of the forum you probably don't realize that <snip> I don't think it is impolite at all. After all, this is an online community and occasionally people do exaggerate or lie about their credentials. Since Dr. J has identified himself as an MD (both his user name and his website make this claim) I think the question is appropriate. JMHO |
Newsflash: Firefox7275 didn't just materialise in a cabbage patch in August 2011. My wrinkles tell of a slightly longer and more 'colourful' history. And a decade or two pre-EDS I learned that a curriculum vitę doesn't prove credentials any more than a forum post does. I assume, therefore, you double checked each entry on Dr. Schultz' CV.
Re-read Rileygirl's question, noting her use of the word 'anyone'. Given that question was not directed at DrJ - and given that I responded by linking out - is it likely I think the question impolite? Given my interest in research is it likely I think double checking impolite or prudent? You don't think labelling a newcomer 'sneaky' is a tad rude? You don't think "I am patiently waiting!" is impolite? Being the observant type, I am sure you noted other examples.
Hope that clarifies my position. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:15 pm |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
Newsflash: Firefox7275 didn't just materialise in a cabbage patch in August 2011. My wrinkles tell of a slightly longer and more 'colourful' history. And a decade or two pre-EDS I learned that a curriculum vitę doesn't prove credentials any more than a forum post does. I assume, therefore, you double checked each entry on Dr. Schultz' CV.
Re-read Rileygirl's question, noting her use of the word 'anyone'. Given that question was not directed at DrJ - and given that I responded by linking out - is it likely I think the question impolite? Given my interest in research is it likely I think double checking impolite or prudent? You don't think labelling a newcomer 'sneaky' is a tad rude? You don't think "I am patiently waiting!" is impolite? Being the observant type, I am sure you noted other examples.
Hope that clarifies my position. |
I did check some of the information that Dr. Schultz provided on his CV, but not all of it. (I am either cautious, interested, suspicious, or have too much time on my hands).
The question regarding Dr. J's credentials were posed directly to him on another thread, but never answered.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6448490&highlight=#6448490
It seems reasonable to me to ask the same questions of forum members on this thread rather than Dr. J since he wasn't posting on this thread when the question was raised. His first post here was after the questions were raised, not before. Is that clearer?
As far as the "I am patiently waiting" response goes ... that an exchange between aswong and the doctor, not Riley. I thought it was funny not rude. A little mimicry to lighten the mood and lessen the hostility. |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:52 pm |
If anyone is interested, Dr. J would like me to let all know that he has updated his blog post on the Lifeline skin care product.
It looks like Dr. J got similar info I got in this thread from MissZ on the study performed. I would still like answers to the questions I asked of MissZ regarding the study size, etc.
ETA: Dr. J, I don't think there are any rules that you cannot come on this thread and let people know you have updated the blog yourself. I could be incorrect on my thinking. Maybe Havana can let us know if you are allowed to do that or not. I think the issue is that you are too new to be allowed to post links. You need to reach a certain number of posts before you can do that. |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:42 pm |
Well I am glad dr J has joined the forum. Even though I still can not imagine anything relating to stem cells can be for the time being really truly effective in over the counter skin care.
There are so many drs selling skin care, with varying results. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and even then individual results in skin care do not necessarily mean everyone can have the same benefits. Basically we are all guinea pigs, aren't we? |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:58 pm |
| What I'm not understanding is this: If there really is a serum that will alter the way our cells respond - wouldn't it be classified as a pharmaceutical and controlled by the FDA (or similar)? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:09 pm |
Keliu I think the problem would be if there was such a serum, how to control the effects? Unlimited proliferation isn't what we are looking for, is it?
That is what is bothering me. For very old people this may not be a real problem but sometimes I read here what young women with more than 60 years ahead of them are putting on their skin and that makes me shudder. Anything that tries to sell itself screaming 'dna' is a no-no for me, since alterations in dna can spell real Trouble with a capital T. And I am past the age of having children. |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:43 pm |
I think I'm back. We'll see if this gets erased.
I didn't try to post a link, just a mention. Then <whoosh> I was disappeared.
There seems to be some confusion about stem cell products - what they are. The current products are not cells in a cream. Rather it has been discovered that oif you grow stem cells in culture they make lots of chemicals called cytokines (some of which are growth factors). And if you use this as an active you get some stellar results. There is actually lots of evidence for this, from many sources. In fact it is the same SkinMedica uses for its TNS serum which has been around for a decade, although just use fibroblasts, not stem cells.
There is a series on stem cell skin care at that place I cannot mention if anyone is interested.
Anyone have any questions about my chat with Dr Craw?
Oh, and maybe someone else with privileges can post a link to that updated Lifeline post? |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:51 pm |
DrJ - I'm fully aware that current stemcell serums don't contain stem cells. It's my understanding that they contain the media which is used to grow the stemcells - is that correct.
However, isn't this media supposed to re-generate our own stemcells? Or have I got that wrong. If it's not regenerating our own stemcells, what is it doing? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:01 pm |
My uneducated guess would be that if it really could stimulate your own stem cells to proliferate and specialise it would have to be delivered into the right layer of skin in the first place. That is pretty deep, and I wonder if any, any topical whatsoever can and will reach that layer. Let alone enter the appropriate cells. It's one thing to have loose cells in vitro respond to whatever you add to the medium they are floating in, skin itself has its mechanisms to prevent stuff from outside getting in, or getting in too deeply.
That also seems to be the disappointing point on the effectiveness of 'proven' topicals - in vitro they deliver all right, but to get them into the skin into the right place is another story. |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:04 pm |
| Dr. J, might I suggest that you start a new topic in the skin care forum where all could discuss ingredients with you? I think your posts are probably being missed by a lot of people who are not interested in this particular skin care product. |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:35 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Dr. J, might I suggest that you start a new topic in the skin care forum where all could discuss ingredients with you? I think your posts are probably being missed by a lot of people who are not interested in this particular skin care product. |
That's a good idea. Can you set up a new thread?
Lotusesther: yes, of course absorption is an issue, but it does happen. Cytokines are basically peptides of varying sizes. They can be enveloped in a liposome or solid lipid nanoparticle, which greatly enhances penetration.
The thing about these cytokines is that they are the communication system for cells, including skin cells. They are not drugs at all, but entirely natural, although they have to be in a "physiologic balance" or else you can get untoward effects. So, in a way (think about it) the stem cells in culture secrete chemicals which you put on your skin which then go and talk to the cells there (not just stem cells, but keratinocytes, fibroblasts, etc). Sort of a long distance conversation. They make be from another (healthy, young) human, but they are identical to your own. No DNA or other worrisome things like that. Now if you can get they to say the right thing (e.g. "heal") you get some very nice effects. |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:04 pm |
I signed up for a sample of the night product. If I have no negative reaction to the sample, I'll probably buy the night product and see what happens.
I have never found any skin product that worked magic, but the hunt is fun.  |
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:17 pm |
| Elvisshops wrote: |
I have never found any skin product that worked magic, but the hunt is fun. |
And expensive! |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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