Copper Peptide CAN be used with topical Vitamin C!!!!
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skin Care and Makeup Forum

free skin care · Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:51 am

Hi everyone! I emailed Skinbiology with a question about MAP (a topical Vitamin C derivative) and was surprised at the NEW information I received. This is what I was told:

"Of course with regular vitamin C topical products we are no longer advising clients to be too concerned with the two (vit. C + copper) interacting with one another. In practical application, it is not posing as much of a problem as we had thought. This could very well be due to the fact that vitamin C is a large molecule that is very difficult to penetrate the skin topically. There might not even be enough of the compound getting into the skin to pose a problem with the copper-peptides."

Thought I would pass the information along.

free skin care · Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:38 am

So what this Skinbio reply is actually saying is that Vitamin C won't penetrate the skin (due to molecular size)...and that is NOT correct. Vitamin C certainly does penetrate the skin, and PubMed or medline contains studies to indicate such.

The better answer would have addressed whether the vitamin C derivatives, which include MAP and Tetra., react with copper peptides as strongly as L-ascorbic acid does. No such information was given, which is curious. I've always taken the Skinbio info with a grain of salt, and after reading this, will continue to do so!

free skin care · Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:27 am

athena123 wrote:

Hmmm, this IS interesting news! I'm planning to introduce CP's to my regimen and was wondering where it would all fit in. I use Vit. C in the am and 1% retinol in the PM. I planned to alternate between retinol and CP's at night so I could incorporate this. Do these new findings mean I can use CP in the morning AND evening?

TIA!

Athena

P.S. I also plan to start using NIA24, containing 5% niaciamide but don't know where it should go into my routine, suggestions anyone? I'm fairly blemish free, early 40's, combo rather than oil but still looking to minimize pores, resolve old acne scars and a few pits and of course deal with fine lines.

Hi Athena, you absolutely CAN use CP twice daily. Since you're new to it though, you should start out by using it only once a day for a couple of weeks, then twice daily. At night, you would use your Retinol fist, then wait about 15 minutes and apply your CP. Who knows, this may change too!! Laughing

Not sure which NIA24 product you're going to be using. Personally, I prefer CP on my skin first but maybe others will reply.

free skin care · Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:14 pm

NCN wrote:

Well my information came from Cassia - his right hand "woman". Apparently he's been researching it more and has changed his opinion. It won't be the first time Laughing

xxxxxxxx (edited)Dr. Pickart has not been researching the combination of CP's and topical Vitamin C products because I asked him directly if he was during a phone conversation. If you re-read Cassia's comments, what she actually said was this:

"we are no longer advising clients to be too concerned with the two (vit. C + copper) interacting with one another. In practical application, it is not posing as much of a problem as we had thought."

There is no reference in Cassia's comments that Dr. Pickart is researching this combination to substantiate this claim. The lack of concern she is referring to has stemmed from customers who use the two products together and have reported to Skinbio that they have not found that one negates the effects of the other. They volunteered this information on their own. The testing that Dr. Pickart has performed in the past is also in a laboratory, not on human test subjects. What he has observed in a Petri dish indicates that there is a negative effect when CP's interact with topical Vitamin C. What actually happens on your skin is a different matter and one that we'll never really know for certain UNLESS he actually performs a study with people.

free skin care · Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:35 pm

aathena - the Nia 24 skin strengthening cream would go over your other products you are using.

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:08 am

Depending on how you use them together, both products can alter the effectiveness of one another. However, Vitamin C (l-ascorbic acid) is technically an AHA and when it is applied in combination with a Copper Peptide, it can negate the effects of the copper since AHA & BHA's are not compatible when you use them together. Therefore, the AHA is the destabilizing factor in this case.

It should also be noted that Vitamin C serum (l-ascorbic acid) that has a concentration strength of 10% or higher and a pH level of 3.5 or lower, requires approximately 10-15 minutes to absorb fully before you layer anything else on top of it. So if you were to slap some Copper Peptide directly on top of your expensive (l-ascorbic acid) Vitamin C serum before a 10-15 minute waiting period has passed, you are effectively halting the Vit-C from penetrating properly, which means you'll lose a portion of it's benefits in the process! So you see, both products can affect each other in a negative way if they are not used properly.

Should you want to learn more about the different types of Vitamin C derivatives & the respective wait times required (or not!), click the link in the quote below for more info. Smile

Quote:

Application order and wait times of Vitamin C Serum (l-ascorbic acid)

L-ascorbic acid forms of vitamin C are very pH dependant and affected by skin ph, or the pH of other products layered with them.

All vitamin C products work best if applied to clean skin, before any other product. Though It may be applied after AHA or BHA if the formulas and pH will not affect activity or absorption.

Vitamin C absorbs faster into the skin then other exfoliate acids (such as BHA and AHA) since it absorbs faster, you can generally limit your wait time to 10 – 15 minutes. Because it does absorb so fast, it is not normally used as an exfoliate, though it does have some exfoliate activity. If used as a “Pro” level exfoliate, strength and timing are adjusted.

For collagen rebuilding benefits, and other treatment effects, you should always use the wait time, before layering other products.

To use it for its anti-oxidant activity only, pH is not a concern, so wait time is not an issue. Just be aware, you will not utilize the other Vit C benefits when used in this manner.
www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18491&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=vitamin&start=0

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:40 am

There are two companies that spring to mind who have conducted various scientific studies about the efficacy of vitamin C serums; they are Cellex-C and Skinceuticals. Here is some info from Cellex-C that might shed some light on molecule size and whether or not topical Vitamin C serums can penetrate the skin properly.

Vitamin C Facts:

-L-ascorbic acid is the only form of Vitamin C that the body can recognize and utilize.

-A product must have a pH lower than 4.0 in order to be effective and penetrate the skin.

-A product must have a minimum of 10% L-ascorbic acid in order to create change in the skin (for eye area levels higher than 5% are not recommended). However, skin cannot utilize more than 17.5% L-ascorbic acid.

Water soluble (L-ascorbic acid) vs. fat / lipid soluble (ascorbyl palmitate, ascorbyl magnesium, ascorbyl phosphate and sodium ascorbate)
These are different derivative forms of vitamin C and only a small percentage of the vitamin C will be delivered to the skin. Why? Because the size of the molecule is much larger and our bodies do not recognize these derivative ingredients. In order for our bodies to utilize the derivative form of vitamin C our enzymes must attack these lipid soluble molecules, resulting in at most 30% of the vitamin C being delivered and utilized by the skin. Cellex-C delivers 100% L-ascorbic acid to the skin.

Does this mean that other topical vitamin C products do not work?
No, other products work topically on the skin as moisturizers and antioxidants. However, they cannot penetrate at the same level and therefore do not have the ability to reverse damage within the skin or regenerate the skin.

Color Change
Oxidation is a natural occurrence that is part of all products that contain L-ascorbic acid. Even products that contain stabilized versions of vitamin C oxidize. Example: Jan Marini & Skinceuticals.

Why does pH matter?
L-ascorbic acid must have a pH of 2.0-4.0 in order to penetrate the skin. When L-ascorbic acid's pH is higher than 4.0 it turns into D-ascorbic acid and is unable to penetrate. Example: Jan Marini's C-Esta has a pH of 5.0.

What is the shelf life of L-ascorbic acid?
Testing has shown that once opened a product may lose 2% in 6-8 month, however that it is still effective and the product is still viable. (Some have stated that the shelf life of ascorbic acid is only 3 weeks and that there is none left after 3 months since the concentration drops by 10%. This is simply not accurate).

Powder or crystal forms of L-ascorbic acid that are mixed with diluents can be effective. However, formula can vary, as it can be difficult to get a homogeneous solution with this method.

The stabilization of L-ascorbic acid is relative. When L-ascorbic acid is a completely stable derivative form it is already joined with other molecule, for example: ascorbyl palmitate. It is very difficult to break those molecules apart and deliver the benefits of the L-ascorbic acid into the skin. There is no evidence for ascorbyl palmitate being anything other than a good moisturizer.

Esters of vitamin C (like magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl palmitate, etc) are less than one fourth vitamin C, the rest being the protective molecule. This means that you would need a significant amount of the ester to get a meaningful concentration of vitamin C into the skin.

Absorption of L-ascorbic is an active process not a passive process.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Cellex-C-Vitamin-C-Product-Solutions&id=892624

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:21 am

What I took from this thread is we no longer need to be concerned about using products with Vit. C in combination with Copper Peptides. For that information I am grateful. Any other information regarding this is most valuable. The whole topic of C's and CP's gets rather confusing. By no means am I an expert on the matter. I count on you to fill me in on all the latest information coming out. To date you have not steered me wrong. Wink

Everyone is intitled to his/her opinion. Posts that do not make a member feel welcome will be edited or removed. Respect please!

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:10 am

Hi, Winnie! I just wanted to clarify that this is not actually the case in that "we no longer have to be concerned..." but rather that we no longer have to be concerned about using them at separate times of the day; however, a wait time is still necessary (the timing of which is dependent on the actual Ph of the Vitamin C you're using). Otherwise, you are likely to be wasting a LOT of money, either with CPs or Vitamin C, if they are layered without understanding the actual chemical process.

While I can appreciate that the OP provided some intriguing information, it should have been taken with a grain of salt considering the source - anyone who's dealt on a regular basis with Skin Biology HAS to look deeper for themselves or seek help elsewhere because you can't take most of what they say at face value - especially considering that Dr. P always errs on the side of caution and that there have been no further clinical testing done with the varied scenarios we may create. Consequently, he leaves it up to his clients to test on themselves and that is probably why there is so much conflicting information.

Kassy, just so you know, the article you referenced comments on Copper GHK-CU and its inability to be used w/acids. Dr. Pickart invented this molecule and it was designed to be used to minimize the irritation of Retin-A. Consequently, Dr. P says it can be used right AFTER RA - no wait time - same goes for the 2nd generation products. The new Super GHK-CU is a lovely product, albeit, expensive. However, it is fragile due to its base - this is not the case w/the 2nd gen products. Consequently, it is not recommended to use GHK-CU within a short time of acids. This is opposite of what is done with the 2nd gen products. You can apply a BHA, for example, wait 30 minutes to exfoliate and then put on CPs. You CANNOT do this with GHK-CU as you will be effectively putting liquid nothing on your face (I'm exaggerating for the sake of example but I'm sure you get the point). It is likely totally destroyed by the acid and so this is why it is recommended to use GHK-CU and acids at separate times of the day. Now, just think about that one...Vitamin C, BHA, etc. Gets a little tricky, doesn't it?

Frankly, when a vendor who SELLS product and then posts information about that product on a forum, it is expected that she should be able to answer specifics about questions that arise. This is even more important since she started the topic! I believe she has put herself into a position of responsibility to answer queries that come up and not in a glib way with one liners. If I were a consumer, I'd want concrete facts. The fact is that there is a lot of money at stake and if we all recall the "CPs don't work" thread, there are A LOT of people who have no clue what they're doing in relation to using them. They do not even understand the basic mechanics of them and so run into difficulties like the uglies and claim they do not work. Don't even get me started on some of the recommendations to start full strength!

ScotsLass has provided some extremely good and detailed information about the interaction of CPs and Vitamin C. This is the type of detail I would have expected the vendor to provide, considering she started the thread. It's been my experience that when you share information by posting a new topic, you have to be prepared to answer all the follow up questions!

As you all know, I don't post much here anymore but I felt like some things needed clarification. In my case, I'm way less about the love fest and more about getting the details. Consider for a moment some of the procedures we talk about here and other places...TCA/Other peels, Needling, Microdermabrasion and so on. These are all serious procedures that carry personal responsibility and no one should be so knee jerk that they do not take the time to really UNDERSTAND what they are doing. Some of these tricks we've learned can have very serious consequences. While this is not the case with this topic, it still merits serious discussion and detail.

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:23 am

My point exactly.

free skin care · Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:37 pm

This was an old post...but I still believe it's best to use CP's and Vit c separately whether they cancel one another out or oxidize the Vit c. There's no reason to use them together.

I did, several years ago, use both retinols and retin A with copper peptides and had a really good experience with the combination. I think I staggered them about an hour apart.
I'm going to try it again.
I remember my skin glowed and I got lots of compliments.

Automatic Message

If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.

Click Here to join our community.

If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site.