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Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:22 am  |
Good questions CM!
| cm5597 wrote: |
Nor was I saying that Sean was making such a claim  My last post was just trying to clarify my original post that I do think that diet can be a factor for some people and to elaborate on some thoughts I have on what might be causing cheek hollows for some people. |
Sure I understood that you weren’t making that point, but just wanted to be clear it wasn’t a point I was making. Clarity is always a good thing in my book ;0)
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Yes, I also wonder if rather the buccinators sucking in was simply due to having now toned them, and when Loulou recommended backing off, the situation improved not because the muscles were overworked but simply just because they weren't being worked very much anymore and hence were less toned and thus aren't in the slightly sucked in position they would be in if toned... Sean, is this a possibility? |
I think a great deal of the buccinators curving inwards is dependent on the individuals face shape to begin with and the actual health of their buccinators. This is one reason why exercises that address the buccinators never affect any two people alike, as we’re all starting from different places. I suspect when people back off, the muscle is simply allowed more time to repair and without that same stimulation returns to its former state. I’m not convinced that tone buccinators curve in for everyone yet, although at times I have curved my buccinators with various methods, I haven’t found a one size fits all yet and doubt I ever will. I think the condition of the buccinators to some extent is because they are a large flat almost sheet like muscle, which are very different compared to the stringy strong nature of the zygomaticus for example.
| cm5597 wrote: |
What?! Really?! What is this scientific evidence....I would love to see it! I haven't come across any like that, and my experience has always been that high resistance, low reps, and an emphasis on the negative phase of the contraction (particularly when the weight in hand exceeds the muscle's ability to contract it) gives the most muscle build. You're ruining the "bodybuilding gospel" here  |
LOL its not actually bodybuilding gospel but its commonly touted about even today and its something that many people reading the mags believe to be true for sure. Most trainers in the know don’t actually recommend high reps for anything. Its kind of the believe that you can’t target fat on the body - there are more trainers coming out with various methods proving that’s incorrect, that fat can be targeted. My favourite one that has proven this is T-tapp and Teresa always does great studies with many universities.
Its actually something that I first noticed a couple of years back from a Mike Meztger book, and for anyone who doesn’t know who Mike is, he was an amazing bodybuilder who won a host of competitions but then got into training others and really led some great studies into the arena.
The evidence is definitely out there, you just need to look for it, however there are some who still say that and I’ve yet to see any proof to their claims. Mike Meztger was involved in a lecture circuit at one point and my understanding is that he conducted a study, and that’s one of the reasons he was against anything above 15 reps. He claimed anything there after was a waste of time. However, practically I think there are advantages sometimes to doing so, but I’m not convinced that long term high reps is actually beneficial. Its still touted about today in bodybuilding magazines, but you ask most of the experts and they will tell you its not factually based. Its interesting though isn’t it, as it does then lead to the question what is actually factually based in bodybuilding - and that can turn into a very long investigation ;0)
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Out of curiosity, when you work one-on-one with a client, how easy it is to figure why they have cheek hollows? Is it usually obvious right away, or does it sometimes take time to figure out what is going on? Do you have clients that no matter what are always going to have a little bit of those lower cheek hollows? |
Its incredibly easy (as I have been doing this a long time now). When you notice how a person does all the exercises, you can see their stronger muscles jumping in, you can see their weaker muscles which don’t want to play. In the past I have told people that, but I’ve changed that for the last couple of years to letting them discover this for themselves but giving them tips on how to better engage the target muscles. You can also see which ones they like and which ones they dislike. Hey expressions are hard to hide. Also people are quite open if they don’t like a particular sensation they tell you so. Plus in that time you will see them constantly raising their brows, or pursing their lips and then you can point that out. Sometimes its an eye opener for sure.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| What percent of people do you think eventually experience issues with cheek hollows? Just curious |
It’s not something that I have ever counted up in my own records, but I would say it’s a very small number and I’d guess around 15-20% if that. The interesting thing is that for me, those 20% differ so greatly in a group. I haven’t found a specific grouping or pattern yet.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Yes, I too saw more improvements as I engaged more of the muscle fibers when contracting my buccinators. Do you think this could explain why many people get cheek hollows? |
I think it can be one of the reasons, but there are so many, and it’s a difficult question to answer without knowing the full persons case history, their genetic background, their skincare routine, their everyday facial expressions, their sleep patterns and diet as these all impact anyones body.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Sean, why do you think that low carbs, in particular, can cause gauntness for people? I would presume it has something to do with low carbs translating into lower glycogen stores...? |
I think its partly because a person who low carbs hinders their muscles ability first to completely move and utilize all its fibres, but secondly it prevents the muscles for repairing the complete damage done to it. Its kind of like running your car on a 1/4 tank of fuel, it can run for sure - but next to its identical twin who has a full tank its limited in its functions as it only has 1/4 of the fuel reserves, so while the full tank can perhaps drive at a high speed, with lights, heating on, and navigation controls, the 1/4 tank doesn’t have that reserve. It may be able to do that partially for a short amount of time, but not as long as the other.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| In fact, I know that lots of bodybuilders eat something like 6 times a day, to try to make sure that their muscles have a constant source of fuel. |
Exactly that’s the point. Also bodybuilders often are very good supplementation wise, and so they ensure their bodies have all the aminos and vits etc. Its something that I think many people neglect but when you begin investigating it, it’s a whole world into itself.
[quote="cm5597"] I think I'm like you, Sean: an experimenter at heart . I don't promise that everything I tried was good for me, but I definitely feel that my experience and knowledge is much richer for being willing to experiment with all sorts of things Also, I mostly did high reps in my early phases of resistance facial exercises because my contractions weren't as good and I was trying to build up the mind-muscle connection. I stick mainly to low reps these days, that is, 10-15 reps or less. [quote="cm5597"]
Definitely without shadow of a doubt, I see myself in you. Plus I know with this information your reading/studying your going to take this to new levels when you begin working with people!
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Sean, is it fair to say that too little calories, too little carbs, and dehydration are the main issues that people should look at if they experience gauntness? Is there anything else that is very commmon that people should look into, diet-wise? |
I think looking at dehydration is my number one tip for everyone and anyone. I truly believe dehydration is one of the first and major factors in the aging process, and taking care of that will serve a person’s general health 100 times more, but in the process of that your see the skin and organs will be better nourished.
Also stress is the other. If a person experiences stress, then they will experience dehydration. It’s a horrible catch 22 situation, but if your under stress, your experience dehydration which in turn causes more physical stress.
With guantness, for me it’s a flag point. I always look to the carbs first of all. Its not to say it’s the exact answer in every single case (as yours proves) and usually when you begin looking you gain an insight into how much under we do it, as often its something generally people don’t think about. Even when I experienced it, I was eating good foods, but just not enough to sustain me.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Definitely, I think so. If I recall correctly, there is research out there that says the optimal time to eat post-workout is usually 30-90 minutes after your workout. And certainly, top athletes are religious about eating both good sugars and protein immediately post-workout to repair and rebuild their muscles and to lock-in those gains in strength and performance. |
Well definitely with the body its proven that eating 45 minutes to 90 minutes after a workout enables the body and muscle fibres to recuperate faster (and usually it’s a protein only snack recommended simply because it won’t offset an insulin spike). Not so sure re facial muscle building if that’s true. The facial muscles aren’t as demanding as the body, and we don’t work them to the same intensity with fixed external weight through as wide a range of motion, so I’m not sure whether they will be high on the priority list of the body’s agenda, but its something that I’m going to try and get some clients to work with in the future and see how that goes.
It takes time to gain knowledge of our faces, and thats why its disheartening to see some people do it for say 3 months, and then give up with the belief it didnt work for them. They will have usually seen some changes, but they are kind of giving up before they are even part way through, but hey there are many programs out there. Its a hard thing to try to tell people and I can feel them rolling their eyes when I say it, but you seriously got to give any system you do a years length. Sometimes chopping and changing before you have identified your stronger muscles, simply overbuilds stronger muscles without even realising.
Still I'm thankful to EDS as it does allow us to discuss such things in as great a detail, and its getting the word out there. Who knows maybe 10 years from now, they'll be referring to the conversation we're having! |
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