Copper Peptide CAN be used with topical Vitamin C!!!!
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free skin care · Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:09 pm

this is fantastic news. It definately saves time in my skin routine, and I can add another active in my night routine, if I combine the CP and vitamine C in the morning...

free skin care · Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:16 pm

I need confirmation for conflicting information on this forum concerning vitamin C and copper peptides. So it is the vitamin C that renders copper peptides ineffective and not the other way around, correct?

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:08 am

Depending on how you use them together, both products can alter the effectiveness of one another. However, Vitamin C (l-ascorbic acid) is technically an AHA and when it is applied in combination with a Copper Peptide, it can negate the effects of the copper since AHA & BHA's are not compatible when you use them together. Therefore, the AHA is the destabilizing factor in this case.

It should also be noted that Vitamin C serum (l-ascorbic acid) that has a concentration strength of 10% or higher and a pH level of 3.5 or lower, requires approximately 10-15 minutes to absorb fully before you layer anything else on top of it. So if you were to slap some Copper Peptide directly on top of your expensive (l-ascorbic acid) Vitamin C serum before a 10-15 minute waiting period has passed, you are effectively halting the Vit-C from penetrating properly, which means you'll lose a portion of it's benefits in the process! So you see, both products can affect each other in a negative way if they are not used properly.

Should you want to learn more about the different types of Vitamin C derivatives & the respective wait times required (or not!), click the link in the quote below for more info. Smile

Quote:

Application order and wait times of Vitamin C Serum (l-ascorbic acid)

L-ascorbic acid forms of vitamin C are very pH dependant and affected by skin ph, or the pH of other products layered with them.

All vitamin C products work best if applied to clean skin, before any other product. Though It may be applied after AHA or BHA if the formulas and pH will not affect activity or absorption.

Vitamin C absorbs faster into the skin then other exfoliate acids (such as BHA and AHA) since it absorbs faster, you can generally limit your wait time to 10 – 15 minutes. Because it does absorb so fast, it is not normally used as an exfoliate, though it does have some exfoliate activity. If used as a “Pro” level exfoliate, strength and timing are adjusted.

For collagen rebuilding benefits, and other treatment effects, you should always use the wait time, before layering other products.

To use it for its anti-oxidant activity only, pH is not a concern, so wait time is not an issue. Just be aware, you will not utilize the other Vit C benefits when used in this manner.
www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18491&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=vitamin&start=0

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:40 am

There are two companies that spring to mind who have conducted various scientific studies about the efficacy of vitamin C serums; they are Cellex-C and Skinceuticals. Here is some info from Cellex-C that might shed some light on molecule size and whether or not topical Vitamin C serums can penetrate the skin properly.

Vitamin C Facts:

-L-ascorbic acid is the only form of Vitamin C that the body can recognize and utilize.

-A product must have a pH lower than 4.0 in order to be effective and penetrate the skin.

-A product must have a minimum of 10% L-ascorbic acid in order to create change in the skin (for eye area levels higher than 5% are not recommended). However, skin cannot utilize more than 17.5% L-ascorbic acid.

Water soluble (L-ascorbic acid) vs. fat / lipid soluble (ascorbyl palmitate, ascorbyl magnesium, ascorbyl phosphate and sodium ascorbate)
These are different derivative forms of vitamin C and only a small percentage of the vitamin C will be delivered to the skin. Why? Because the size of the molecule is much larger and our bodies do not recognize these derivative ingredients. In order for our bodies to utilize the derivative form of vitamin C our enzymes must attack these lipid soluble molecules, resulting in at most 30% of the vitamin C being delivered and utilized by the skin. Cellex-C delivers 100% L-ascorbic acid to the skin.

Does this mean that other topical vitamin C products do not work?
No, other products work topically on the skin as moisturizers and antioxidants. However, they cannot penetrate at the same level and therefore do not have the ability to reverse damage within the skin or regenerate the skin.

Color Change
Oxidation is a natural occurrence that is part of all products that contain L-ascorbic acid. Even products that contain stabilized versions of vitamin C oxidize. Example: Jan Marini & Skinceuticals.

Why does pH matter?
L-ascorbic acid must have a pH of 2.0-4.0 in order to penetrate the skin. When L-ascorbic acid's pH is higher than 4.0 it turns into D-ascorbic acid and is unable to penetrate. Example: Jan Marini's C-Esta has a pH of 5.0.

What is the shelf life of L-ascorbic acid?
Testing has shown that once opened a product may lose 2% in 6-8 month, however that it is still effective and the product is still viable. (Some have stated that the shelf life of ascorbic acid is only 3 weeks and that there is none left after 3 months since the concentration drops by 10%. This is simply not accurate).

Powder or crystal forms of L-ascorbic acid that are mixed with diluents can be effective. However, formula can vary, as it can be difficult to get a homogeneous solution with this method.

The stabilization of L-ascorbic acid is relative. When L-ascorbic acid is a completely stable derivative form it is already joined with other molecule, for example: ascorbyl palmitate. It is very difficult to break those molecules apart and deliver the benefits of the L-ascorbic acid into the skin. There is no evidence for ascorbyl palmitate being anything other than a good moisturizer.

Esters of vitamin C (like magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl palmitate, etc) are less than one fourth vitamin C, the rest being the protective molecule. This means that you would need a significant amount of the ester to get a meaningful concentration of vitamin C into the skin.

Absorption of L-ascorbic is an active process not a passive process.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Cellex-C-Vitamin-C-Product-Solutions&id=892624

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:57 am

ScotsLass wrote:

Depending on how you use them together, both products can alter the effectiveness of one another. However, Vitamin C (l-ascorbic acid) is technically an AHA and when it is applied in combination with a Copper Peptide, it can negate the effects of the copper since AHA & BHA's are not compatible when you use them together with Copper Peptide products. Therefore, you are correct ch3r; the Vitamin C (AHA) is the destabilizing factor in this case.

Didn't catch an earilier post in time to edit it - additional verbiage is in red.

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:21 am

What I took from this thread is we no longer need to be concerned about using products with Vit. C in combination with Copper Peptides. For that information I am grateful. Any other information regarding this is most valuable. The whole topic of C's and CP's gets rather confusing. By no means am I an expert on the matter. I count on you to fill me in on all the latest information coming out. To date you have not steered me wrong. Wink

Everyone is intitled to his/her opinion. Posts that do not make a member feel welcome will be edited or removed. Respect please!

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:10 am

Hi, Winnie! I just wanted to clarify that this is not actually the case in that "we no longer have to be concerned..." but rather that we no longer have to be concerned about using them at separate times of the day; however, a wait time is still necessary (the timing of which is dependent on the actual Ph of the Vitamin C you're using). Otherwise, you are likely to be wasting a LOT of money, either with CPs or Vitamin C, if they are layered without understanding the actual chemical process.

While I can appreciate that the OP provided some intriguing information, it should have been taken with a grain of salt considering the source - anyone who's dealt on a regular basis with Skin Biology HAS to look deeper for themselves or seek help elsewhere because you can't take most of what they say at face value - especially considering that Dr. P always errs on the side of caution and that there have been no further clinical testing done with the varied scenarios we may create. Consequently, he leaves it up to his clients to test on themselves and that is probably why there is so much conflicting information.

Kassy, just so you know, the article you referenced comments on Copper GHK-CU and its inability to be used w/acids. Dr. Pickart invented this molecule and it was designed to be used to minimize the irritation of Retin-A. Consequently, Dr. P says it can be used right AFTER RA - no wait time - same goes for the 2nd generation products. The new Super GHK-CU is a lovely product, albeit, expensive. However, it is fragile due to its base - this is not the case w/the 2nd gen products. Consequently, it is not recommended to use GHK-CU within a short time of acids. This is opposite of what is done with the 2nd gen products. You can apply a BHA, for example, wait 30 minutes to exfoliate and then put on CPs. You CANNOT do this with GHK-CU as you will be effectively putting liquid nothing on your face (I'm exaggerating for the sake of example but I'm sure you get the point). It is likely totally destroyed by the acid and so this is why it is recommended to use GHK-CU and acids at separate times of the day. Now, just think about that one...Vitamin C, BHA, etc. Gets a little tricky, doesn't it?

Frankly, when a vendor who SELLS product and then posts information about that product on a forum, it is expected that she should be able to answer specifics about questions that arise. This is even more important since she started the topic! I believe she has put herself into a position of responsibility to answer queries that come up and not in a glib way with one liners. If I were a consumer, I'd want concrete facts. The fact is that there is a lot of money at stake and if we all recall the "CPs don't work" thread, there are A LOT of people who have no clue what they're doing in relation to using them. They do not even understand the basic mechanics of them and so run into difficulties like the uglies and claim they do not work. Don't even get me started on some of the recommendations to start full strength!

ScotsLass has provided some extremely good and detailed information about the interaction of CPs and Vitamin C. This is the type of detail I would have expected the vendor to provide, considering she started the thread. It's been my experience that when you share information by posting a new topic, you have to be prepared to answer all the follow up questions!

As you all know, I don't post much here anymore but I felt like some things needed clarification. In my case, I'm way less about the love fest and more about getting the details. Consider for a moment some of the procedures we talk about here and other places...TCA/Other peels, Needling, Microdermabrasion and so on. These are all serious procedures that carry personal responsibility and no one should be so knee jerk that they do not take the time to really UNDERSTAND what they are doing. Some of these tricks we've learned can have very serious consequences. While this is not the case with this topic, it still merits serious discussion and detail.

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:22 am

Well this should make a couple of people REALLY mad because I've got another "one liner". In a later email, Cassia told me that all references regarding a wait time when using Vit. C and CP together have been removed from all pages on the Skinbiology website.

If that's is an issue for anyone, please contact Skinbiology. I'm merely reporting what I'm told. Didn't mean to get anyone or anybody in a tizzy. My apologies if I did.

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:23 am

My point exactly.

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:57 am

rileygirl wrote:

aathena - the Nia 24 skin strengthening cream would go over your other products you are using.

Thank you rileygirl, that's good to know!

There still seems to be differences of opinion about using Vit C and CPs in the am. Either way, to use them both requires at least a 15-30 minute wait, which I don't have time for on the days I'm not working from home and have to travel to the office. On my commuting days I'll probably still stick with Vit C, NIA24 in the am and CP's/retinol in the PM. AFter all, a girl still needs time to put on her makeup doesn't she? Laughing

Reviewing this thread, I honestly don't know who is right because I don't know enough about it, nor do I have a microscope or test tubes to check the molecule size of vit. C or measure the thickness of the skin, etc. etc. While manufacturers can and should be expected to know a great deal about their products, sometimes that's where their expertise ends. Shock

They won't necessarily know how a different product other than their area of study is necessarily going to interact with other products simply because they haven't studied or tested it. Knowing this, I can understand the apparent caution Dr. P has always expressed with Vit C and CP. The OP was kind enough to share a slightly less cautious approach to the interaction of these products and I thank her for it.

I work for a software company. We can and are the experts for the product we sell and support but can't always guarantee how it'll interact with other applications simply because our QA dept hasn't tested for that. Some of the ways our customers have used our software are truly creative, astounding and I'm always pleasantly surprised to see how they've adjusted the program to work best for THEM. The Moral of the Story? No matter how thorough and clean cut results are in the lab, a little bit of chaos theory will always be introduced once you step out from the lab into the real world.

I certainly see the analogy within this thread and thank all of you for your different takes on this subject. Hoping we can keep it civilized and avoid the snarkiness as well. Very Happy

Cheers,

Athena

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:36 am

Does EDS carry a product line that uses copper peptides? IF so which line, or which line is recommended? Also, in congruence to the post, which VIt C is the best to use with CP. Currently I am using ISClinical products? Can I mix Proheal with CP?

THANKS!! I keep hearing about CP, and want to try them!!

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:43 am

i use copper peptide serum from www.ncnproskincare.com and some of her other products that go with cp serum
hth Very Happy

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:56 am

Feliz wrote:

Does EDS carry a product line that uses copper peptides? IF so which line, or which line is recommended? Also, in congruence to the post, which VIt C is the best to use with CP. Currently I am using ISClinical products? Can I mix Proheal with CP?

THANKS!! I keep hearing about CP, and want to try them!!

Yes, EDS does carry Copper Peptides from Skin Biology. http://www.essentialdayspa.com/skinbiology-reverse-skin-aging.htm I would recommend that you start by using the CP Serum. The one ounce size will last several months. I found it best to use three times a week once a day. As your skin gets use to CP's you can use more often. Just a few drops of product is needed. Many dilute with equal parts of water.

As far as Vit. C I think I will still use my CP's in the evening and Vit. C products during the day. To date this has worked very well for me.

While using CP's it is recommended to take oral Vit. C daily. Taking C internally is said to keep your skin nice and firm. If you have any more questions do a search for Copper Peptides. You will find a wealth of information and guidance.

free skin care · Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:15 am

Thank you winnie. I have taken note of your suggestions and look forward to trying the product!!

free skin care · Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:47 pm

I tried the PSF bio-copper peptide and was not impressed. I thought that it would help with the texture of my skin, but it really did nothing. I used it , but was very dis-satisfied.

free skin care · Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:34 pm

I didn't see this thread when it was first floating around. Glad to hear Nancy report that there is less worry about using the CPs and Vit C closer together. I had already heard Dr. P or the staff at SB say that a hundred times, but did take it w/ a grain of salt.

I'll agree w/ some of what Scalawag said. From what I've learned about CPs and Vit C is that the GHK-Cu version of CPs is very delicate and CANNOT be used at the same time of day as acidic products as the acids will break down the GHK. Dr. P went on to create a stronger/less sensitive version of the GHK so it would not break down w/ use of acids and came up w/ the 2nd generation of CPs (CP Serum, Super CP Serum, P & R Lotion, etc..) However, Dr P/SB has always said (on his forum)that the CPs will break down Vit C and it would be best to use them at opposite times of the day. They would then finish that comment w/ a footnote that 'many clients use them together and say they have beautiful skin'. No doubt they've garnered enuf responses from clients who use them together successfully that they tell their resellers (NCN) 'no need to worry'. Not much science behind it, I'm sure.

I am so disappointed to hear that they've deleted all references to this topic on their forum as well. Arrggg! Confused

Go figure. I was equally disappointed when DebbieNIR deleted all her posts on that forum. She had some valuable posts.

Scalawagirl, you explained the CP/Vit C so well, I only wanted to say I agreed w/ you Smile

I would heartily agree w/ Winnie, too.

Quote:

As far as Vit. C I think I will still use my CP's in the evening and Vit. C products during the day. To date this has worked very well for me.

While using CP's it is recommended to take oral Vit. C daily. Taking C internally is said to keep your skin nice and firm. If you have any more questions do a search for Copper Peptides. You will find a wealth of information and guidance.

Unfortunately, Vit C and me don't agree (too many blackheads from it) Still looking for something to work in that regard - and then I'll be able to apply w/out much 'worry' since I do love my CPs. Very Happy

free skin care · Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:35 pm

pieperd wrote:

I tried the PSF bio-copper peptide and was not impressed. I thought that it would help with the texture of my skin, but it really did nothing. I used it , but was very dis-satisfied.

This is just a copy-cat version of CPs and I wouldn't bother with it myself. If you want to see some results - stick w/ the real stuff. Skin Biology/Dr Pickart is the creator of the CPs. EDS sells some as does NCN Skin Care. You may also find weaker versions (but, perhaps, more elegantly packaged/scented) from Neova, Nuetrogena and Osmosis.

I have had great results using SB's CPs - from my eyelids firming up, to eliminating skin tags, removing other abnormalites w/ no scars, firming up sagging skin and smoothing crepey textured skin. I could go on, but I will leave it that I'm happy w/ CPs.

free skin care · Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:13 pm

I agree with Kassy_A. I use my Vit. C in the AM and CP in the evening. This works wonders for my skin. It is my understanding that the two do neutralize each other out so I don't see any reason to test this out in the chance that I am wasting the effects of the costly CP's Wink

I currently am using the PSF CP serum, have been using it for a good while now and have been very happy with it overall. Had been using Skin Biology's prior but my skin overall seems to prefer the PSF. I really don't feel it's a copycat version of Dr. Pickart's (having used them both), nor do I think that's a fair assumption. The science is out there now and many companies are coming out with their own versions. This is just the way of skincare. Anyhoo - I recommend either brand, using the Vit C. am and CP pm for optimal results. Smile

-- Heather

Fri May 13, 2011 2:39 pm

Hi everyone. Has anyone looked into Dr Perricone's Acyl-Glutathione? This cream contains copper and ascorbyl palmitate. I asked them how come and they reckon ascorbyl palmitate is fine to use at the same time as copper because it's oil soluble. I don't know enough about this to know if it's correct so was hoping someone here would be able to confirm this?

free skin care · Fri May 13, 2011 3:54 pm

Overpriced line. The results can be easily be duplicated with excellent products at a much more reasonable price.

free skin care · Fri May 13, 2011 4:18 pm

pineapple wrote:

Hi everyone. Has anyone looked into Dr Perricone's Acyl-Glutathione? This cream contains copper and ascorbyl palmitate. I asked them how come and they reckon ascorbyl palmitate is fine to use at the same time as copper because it's oil soluble. I don't know enough about this to know if it's correct so was hoping someone here would be able to confirm this?

Not all products containing 'copper' contain Copper Peptides. Copper gluconate is the copper in the Perricone product and is NOT a CP.

Quote:

Ingredients: Aqua (Water), Isopropyl Palmitate, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Phosphatidylcholine, S-Palmitoylglutathione, L-Tyrosine, Dimethyl MEA (DMAE), Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Ceteareth-20, Glycolic Acid, Oligopeptide-17, Oligopeptide-49, Squalane, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter, Limnanthes Alba (Meadowfoam) Seed Oil, Docosahexaenoic Acid, Dimethicone, Sesamum Indicum (Sesame) Seed Oil, Glycerin, Magnesium Aspartate, Zinc Gluconate, Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, Parfum (Fragrance), Propylene Glycol, Disodium EDTA, Hydrolyzed Glycosaminoglycans, Elaeis Guineensis (Palm) Oil, Citric Acid, Tocotrienols, Copper Gluconate, Sorbic Acid, Tocopherol, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Thioctic Acid (Alpha-Lipoic Acid), Linalool.

Dr Pickart actually thinks the copper gluconate form of a copper supplement is no good (calls it a toxic form)

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:49 pm

Hi! I'm using Drunk Elephant C-15 Firma Day Serum, which has a reservoir function of 72 hs. According to Drunk Elephant, this means that vitamin C molecules are still reversing skin damage during that time. I want to add Mizon's Black Snail cream to my routine, and read that snail mucin contains copper peptides. Can I use the Vitamin C serum in the AM and the snail cream in the PM or would the CP negate the reservoir function of the serum? And how about using the snail cream after a AHA or BHA has absorbed for 20 minutes?

free skin care · Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:06 am

I use the High tech copper peptide 5% from I'm Fabulous Cosmetics with my 0.5 mm derma roller at night and my 27% hydrating vitamin C the next morning. I see a huge difference in my skin texture and color.

free skin care · Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:37 pm

This was an old post...but I still believe it's best to use CP's and Vit c separately whether they cancel one another out or oxidize the Vit c. There's no reason to use them together.

I did, several years ago, use both retinols and retin A with copper peptides and had a really good experience with the combination. I think I staggered them about an hour apart.
I'm going to try it again.
I remember my skin glowed and I got lots of compliments.

free skin care · Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:13 pm

That is great to know as I already do this.

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