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Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:38 am  |
Hi
The Ageless, forum has become a complete circus! Seems the trolls are out in force!
If I recall you said that you got good results from Ageless! When I did Ageless, I looked good then very quickly looked like a zombie!What was your exercise routine and how long were you doing ageless before you noticed a good/bad change? Sorry to be such a pest but a lot of people seem to have these same results and I was wondering if our routines were similar! You also said you had access to LouLou, what advice did she give you?
| CaryBear wrote: |
I have been Ageless on and off for some time. I am not getting good results. I look older & more gaunt, so I went to the Ageless if You Dare forum.
let me tell you, there are a lot of frustrated, angry, snarky women there! These ladies were so mad that the programme wasn't working for them and Lou Lou was unreachable. It was so sickening the way they attacked each other & me, so I deleted my account. It was a frigging lions den.
Anyway, after reading a lot about the dissatisfaction from Ageless, Ive decided to try Facercise. I hope it works!  |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:31 am |
Well, I should start by saying I used facial exercises as I had lost 30 lbs because I had Celiac disease& didn't know it. When you can't eat most of the stuff in the North American diet it is very hard to keep weight on!
Anyway, I noticed these parenthesis type folds in my cheeks when I smile~almost as if I had dimples~but the line goes to my chin. Mind you, I am not talking about NL fold, those are a different problem 
The problem is loss of volume & naturally I thought facial exercises would work. I will say it was, and then I slacked off, then stopped altogether.
When I started again, I decided to add "crush". I wasn't training those muscles initially because I couldn't figure out how to do it right. I must have started to get it, because my face started to thin out horribly. I emailed Lou Lou & asked her what to do! She advised I leave out "crush".
I did that, and kept the other exercises.
These days I am looking haggard. I mean I look like hell. it's been about 3 mos and it's not getting better even with less training, and leaving out "crush"
I read in another forums that this was a common problem and perhaps Ageless If You Dare isn't for me. I ordered Facercise...all I want is my pre-illness face back. I wonder if I will ever see it again.  |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:18 pm |
Hi Carybear,
I feel for you suffering from celiac disease, as I know a friend who has it and it can be hell until you are diagnosed. It can wreak havoc on the body and cause mental angst as well. To make matters worse, almost every processed food item has some form of gluten in it. The disease can certainly cause weight loss and that could also wreak havoc on your face, particularly if a lot of facial fat pads are lost. The end result will cause facial gauntness, deepened nasal labial folds and even increased sagginess. But, it is your face and if you feel certain the Ageless exercises were detrimental to your face, then you had full right to complain. Certainly, the program creator should have been more sympathetic to you. I think that many people on the forum defend certain programs to the hilt and take on the attack mode, which is unfortunate. Although I use Facercise exclusively, I still feel there is no one-size fits all program. As I’ve said before, some can tolerate aggressive programs, others cannot. I have seen others complain about awkward periods with certain programs. Personally, I never experienced awkward effects using Facercise except when I first started the program and overdid it. By overdoing it, I mean I did the exercises more than the prescribed twice a day and never gave my muscles the time to rest, recover and build. Btw, I did the exercises whenever I got the chance thinking more was better and did them as often as 5-6 times a day. Once I called Carole, she called me right back and explained what was happening. You cannot make up for lost time by overdoing it!!! After a week of doing them only twice a day, everything went back to normal and I continued using the program for many years. I believe your face will go back to normal if follow the program as intended and follow along with the dvd to fully learn the program. Like I said, if you ever have any questions, please feel free to ask. ~ Aprile |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:26 pm |
Thank you Aprile~
I am thinking of using both Ageless and facercise in tandem. The Day one exercises are worth doing, there are some (for me) that aren't. I dont have delicate skin (not yet, but I am in my mid thirties) so it's never been the pulling @ my skin...perhaps I am doing everything all wrong!
My goodness, Im such a Noob
Im gonna try it, see if I can't tailor a routine for myself.
I will admit tho, Ageless did work. I messed up somewhere and now I can't get back to where I was. Also...I don't have a scale in the house...maybe Ive lost weight and I cant see it anywhere but my face.
So bummed out & worried too! I look five years older  |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:46 pm |
Carybear,
Yes even losing as little as just 3 pounds can show up on the face. And, like you said, you may not even notice you've lost weight. Probably because the weight loss was distributed equally throughout your body. I know others mix and match programs, but I wouldn't do that. I would hate to see your face suffer even more by overdoing things. Also, if you have any adverse effects you won't be able to pinpoint what is causing it. It would be like taking various medications at the same time and trying to figure out which one is causing an adverse reaction. You know? My advice would be to stick to one program and then once you become proficient, if you want to mix in some other exercises, do that. But for now, I'd say while you are still learning, stick to one program at a time. All the best, Aprile |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:11 pm |
 Thanks! I needadvice..thank you so much!! Im gonna go with Facercise when it get here. |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:52 pm |
| oh you are more than welcome!!! |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:42 pm |
Hi
Do you eat enough protein and healthy fats? I would put the calories on another way if you can.Processed food is very unhealthy. I was a vegan for 1 year and it did not agree with me. I have done no facial exercises for 1 month as things calm down, I can see my cheeks are built up and my face looks like a upside down triangle my lower face is still angular looking. I am glad I stopped Ageless, based on how my face was looking it was the right decision for me. I need a program that is not spot building. I am scared that if my cheeks get bigger my eyes will look hollow! I wish there was a program that was cut and dry. |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:00 pm |
Carybear,
Nothing to do with facial exercises, and apologies in advance for going OT!
You may have already found this site, but thought I would post the link. It's a wealth of information for Celiac sufferers, recipes, cookbooks and other resources. They also link to their own forum where others in the same situation can help each other. Good Luck! Hope all works out soon!
http://www.celiac.com/ |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:27 pm |
| dickymoe wrote: |
Hi
I am glad I stopped Ageless, based on how my face was looking it was the right decision for me. I need a program that is not spot building. I am scared that if my cheeks get bigger my eyes will look hollow! I wish there was a program that was cut and dry. |
Hi Dickymoe,
You should look into Facercise. If a program is balanced, you should not see your eyes disappear as you build up your cheeks. Facercise has 3 eye exercises which eliminate hooding of the eyes, eliminate under eye hollows and bags and open up the entire eye area. There is only one cheek exercise which you can do 2-3 times a day to raise the cheeks up higher on the face. The face filler is designed to fill in cheek hollows in the lower part of the face (can be skipped if the face is already full.) There's the face contour to provide lift to the entire face, which if your face is too full for your liking, can slim the face as well. There are two lip exercises; one to plump the lips and another to turn up the mouth corners. There is the nasal labial plumper which helps to eliminate those folds. The jaw toner to tone the entire jawline, the neck and chin lift to eliminate a double chin and also further tones the jawline. And lastly, the neck toner which helps eliminate neck rings and tones the entire neck. None of the exercises involve any pulling, tugging or manipulation of the skin. I hope this is helpful . Best regards, Aprile |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:45 pm |
Hi Aprile
I am thinking either Carolyn's program or the one you mentioned. Funny, ageless made my cheeks bigger but not higher! I don't want to end up with a face that looks like a Praying Mantis! I would do Senta's program but figuring it out with no dvd is too hard for me!
I also have a book by Elizabeth Gilfillian,from 1957 but it is to hard to figure out with hardly any pictures but lots of words. I think Senta and most of today's programs sampled hers. |
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Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:06 pm |
| Could be Dickymoe. I wonder if Carole even tailored some of Jack LaLanne's exercises, as he had a program out many years ago too. (Still does) There are many programs out there, and each may take certain elements from other programs. The important thing you learned from your experience is to avoid the aggressive programs that require you to manipulate and stretch your skin. If your cheeks are already high enough on your face, with Facercise you could perform the exercise only once a day to maintain. The program can be customized to suit your particular needs. Also, there is one exercise I forgot, the nose shortener. This exercise is great to keep the nose toned, which is important because as we age, the nose continues to grow. This is primarily due to the skin losing it's firmness and the tip will become flabby and sag downwards into the upper lip area. I'm sure you have read that even those who follow other programs use it. Whatever program you choose, I wish you the best. Aprile |
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Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:39 am |
Hi Aprile,
I wonder if your skull shrinks and that adds to the sagging? |
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Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:48 am |
Hi dickymoe,
Absolutely!  In fact, in one of CM's recent newsletters, there was an article about that very thing. Very interesting read...I am posting the link here for you to view. The article appears on the left hand side of the page ~ check it out. Carole always has a lot of interesting facts/articles in her newsletters!! HTH, Aprilehttp://www.facercise.com/newsletter.shtml |
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Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:06 am |
Aprile - do you believe Facercise can impact facial bones too? There's not really resistance applied direct to the bone, so I'm curious as to how that could be so?
| aprile wrote: |
Hi dickymoe,
Absolutely! In fact, in one of CM's recent newsletters, there was an article about that very thing. Very interesting read...I am posting the link here for you to view. The article appears on the left hand side of the page ~ check it out. Carole always has a lot of interesting facts/articles in her newsletters!! HTH, Aprilehttp://www.facercise.com/newsletter.shtml |
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Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:26 am |
| I don't really know. The article is food for thought. Although you don't place direct force on the bone during the exercises, resistance is created by the body posturing movements. As I mentioned in a prior post, if you perform the exercises without the body posturing and then perform them with the posturing movements, you definitely feel a distinct difference. What I believe is that any facial exercise that builds up facial muscles can make up for facial fat pad loss and make up for bone loss as well. So while no resistance is directly placed on the bone, there is resistance involved so perhaps it does help strengthen the facial bones as well. I doubt that a study will ever been performed though because it would not benefit the plastic surgeons. Aprile |
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Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:34 am |
It most definitely is food for thought. I wonder if thats why FlexEffect developed their bone stuff.
Whilst I can understand that if you do body posture movements, you feel it more intensely, I'm not so sure you could say that its working the facial muscles moreso, sure its hitting more muscles, but its not hitting the facial muscles moreso as a result of the body posture. I can see a person feeling more muscles being hit, but it wouldn't be hitting more facial muscle as a result, but then I suppose if its hitting body muscles thats got to be a good thing too. |
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Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:54 am |
Hi Carybear,
I was just reading your post about celiac... and the weight loss, and your new found lines.
I'd also like for you to consider another area of issue. As you probably know, when you have celiac, your intestines may be so damaged that you do not get adequate vitamins and minerals to your body. And I suspect, what you DO get, goes direct to vital organs, and not skin in the way of elasticity maintenance. It can also remain an issue as the damage to your intestines, and although you are no longer consuming gluten, is so intense, it can take years, if not the remainder of your life time, to correct. Sadly, this can effect your appearance.
It has come to our attn. within my family that Celiac MAY be an issue for one family member. Her tests are problematic. Even the blood tests are not considered 100% accurate. And it's something that I've got my eye on with regard to one of my children. He's 5 and the little guy although seemingly healthy, his skin is not as smooth, and he has dark circles. VERY diff. from his fraternal twin. |
_________________
Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:00 pm |
I also wanted to add, I too know a woman who is my age. It took her about 3 years to get a DX for celiac once her body really took a dive from it. I did not know her at the time. But she said she aged some 10-15 years when it really grabbed her. And she's still in recovery mode. Working to keep her mineral levels up. Her iron was as her doctors say 3rd world country low. (for example), no D, little potassium, etc. Her skin STILL doesn't have a fresh, moist look to it. It's rather dry, which lends to the look of aging as well. She's so pale, you can tell she's never been a sun bather, or drinker. And although very pretty, she looks older than years.
You might do some research on Aloe. If you can ingest it. (some can't) It has HUGE healing powers with the intestines... and I understand adds a dewiness to the skin. I'm working on how to get it in my diet without gagging. (Of course, I can't stand it's taste!) |
_________________
Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:22 pm |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
It most definitely is food for thought. I wonder if thats why FlexEffect developed their bone stuff.
|
Yes... that's why we added the "bone stuff". The skull does shrink. As do other bones... forensic scientists use bones, and their condition, (obviously among other additional variables) to determine the age of the body when it died. If you are also losing muscle tone, elasticity, and fat the synergistic results are the look of "aging".
It's been long proven that body building impacts the bones enough to measure changes in bone density. Obviously, with your head, there aren't many things one can do to add resistance or impact to the bone. For example, the pounding one gets in the legs and spine while running gives enough of a jolt to the bones to induce the fibroblasts within the bone to produce more bone. One probably shouldn't pound his/her head to induce the same benefit. The whole brain damage thing = not so good.
And so yes, what we recommend is done in effort to add as much force as we think possible without placing your brain and such at risk. |
_________________
Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:37 am |
This has been a great thread.
To be honest, there is no evidence at all whatsoever that facial excercises do absolutely anything to the skin (or bone).
They could obviously do something for muscles and thus change face structure a bit.
The papers quoted as research really deal with different type of muscles, with different type of fiber distribution, with a lot different weight, tension, etc, etc. So it's really comparing apples to oranges. In resistance excercises where bone grows, the pull used is much bigger than you use on your skin, and when the tendon is stressed it reacts.
In body building, you can stretch and put a lot of stress without really affecting your skin because the muscles are not attached to the skin. So you can pull the muscle and your skin will "slide" and not get really stretched. However, in your face, the muscles are "attached" to the skin so you can't push the muscles as much without pulling the skin.
Yes, I know that some people have had good experiences but is it really due only do the excercises or is it due to their skin care routine? I don't know. I tend to be skeptical in general so unless I see real measurements I just... remain skeptical.
I'm very scared of dynamic wrinkles but I'm not sure that just a bit of excercise every now and then could hurt. I also think that some things could be useful... if with excercises I could strengthen my resting tone for certain muscles (let's say around the mouth area) then maybe I could have a slightly upward mouth resting expression.... that would be nice.
Just my humble opinion. |
_________________
37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:14 am |
Hi Josee,
I swear by frownies, they work because the skin attaches to the muscle on the face.
I contacted the company that makes frownies to inquire why they didn't have frownies for the neck and I was told because the skin on the neck doesn't attach to the muscle, so they wouldn't work. |
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Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:09 am |
| Josee wrote: |
This has been a great thread.
To be honest, there is no evidence at all whatsoever that facial excercises do absolutely anything to the skin (or bone). |
Yep, there have been no studies of the effects of facial exercises on either skin quality or on bone.
However, the role of bone atrophy in the appearance facial aging is a super young field. The first paper came out in 2004, if I recall correctly, and a handful of other papers have come out in the past couple of years. They are at what one would call the "descriptive" or "characterization" stage, meaning that they are only at the stage of trying to define the amount of bone loss and how that changes the angles of the face.
It will be very interesting to watch how the science of this field grows over the next decade or two, and what interventions or other techniques are developed to combat "bone aging".
| Josee wrote: |
They could obviously do something for muscles and thus change face structure a bit.
The papers quoted as research really deal with different type of muscles, with different type of fiber distribution, with a lot different weight, tension, etc, etc. |
When I looked a couple of years ago, I couldn't find many papers, too, and most/many were about using facial exercises for rehabilitation.
| Josee wrote: |
So it's really comparing apples to oranges. In resistance excercises where bone grows, the pull used is much bigger than you use on your skin, and when the tendon is stressed it reacts.
In body building, you can stretch and put a lot of stress without really affecting your skin because the muscles are not attached to the skin. So you can pull the muscle and your skin will "slide" and not get really stretched. However, in your face, the muscles are "attached" to the skin so you can't push the muscles as much without pulling the skin. |
Yes, very true...unless you do compression exercises, but then these involve high pressure on the tissues between your hands and the bone.
| Josee wrote: |
| Yes, I know that some people have had good experiences but is it really due only do the excercises or is it due to their skin care routine? I don't know. I tend to be skeptical in general so unless I see real measurements I just... remain skeptical. |
Since we are still a long ways a way from definitive proof...and there are virtually no studies been done in these areas...we all have to come to our own conclusions, based on either our best guesses or our own experimentation with them.
I end up "on the other side of the fence". I am far more skeptical of any topical treatment than of any facial exercises, massage, light treatment, or high frequency devices. Perhaps it's because of my bodybuilding background and my physics and biology backgrounds, and thinking about muscle physiology. I have a harder time believing some mix of ingredients applied to the skin is going to provide any sort of lift or fullness to the skin, whereas exercise and massage, which *directly* impact the muscle and which we know increase oxygen transport and circulation to and from the muscle are much more plausible to me as having the potential to make any significant difference in terms of improving lift, sag, and fullness (I'm leaving out skin tone and quality, which are other issues for which topicals can obviously make an improvement).
Plus, for me, my achilles heel is having a thin face...so my two options are either fillers or facial exercises...and I do not want to do the former, and I've been able to go from a gaunt face to a thin face with the latter, so that is a big victory for me.
Ultimately, people have had such a wide variety of experiences with facial exercises that it is very easy to find outside "corroboration" of our innate biases, whether they be in favor of or against facial exercises...so probably the best approach is just to experiment. You can always start off with just electric muscle stimulation, which requires virtually no manipulation of facial skin, while still impacting facial muscle. Anyhow, just my two cents! 
| Josee wrote: |
I'm very scared of dynamic wrinkles but I'm not sure that just a bit of excercise every now and then could hurt. I also think that some things could be useful... if with excercises I could strengthen my resting tone for certain muscles (let's say around the mouth area) then maybe I could have a slightly upward mouth resting expression.... that would be nice.
Just my humble opinion. |
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_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:11 am |
With facial exercises, the muscles I believe start at the bone and end into the skin, so when your working the muscles, you’ll be hitting the skin and bone too to some degree. Whilst there isn’t scientific evidence that facial exercises don’t do anything for bone/skin, its also interesting to note that there isn’t actually any evidence that they don’t do anything for the bone/skin also.
FlexEfefct did have a study though done by a physical therapy centre in California. I’ve never seen photos (don’t know if any are available Claudia?) but this is the blurb from their website:
Eureka Physical Therapy in Eureka, California and Deborah Crowley founder of FlexEffect conduct an independent study on the effects of Facialialbuilding.
Under the direction of Deborah Crowley,a panel of healthy females (average age 45) trained daily for a period of two weeks in Facial Resistance Training (FlexEffect)
The results showed an average 35% increase in facial muscle strength. 100% of the panelists
reported an increase in facial firmness.
FlexEffect Faciailbuilding is a new approach in the recovery of Bell Palsy. Now being offered at
Mad River Hospital in Arcata, CA.
There’s also other articles/research on this page:
http://www.flexeffect.com/research.htm
That you might find interesting.
Now I’m not so sure that facial exercises are designed to strengthen resting tone, but actually prevent the facial muscles from sagging and slackening and becoming longer. That’s one of the reasons why our mouth corners drop etc, because the muscles that attach to them, become longer and as a result the lines and skin get taken along with the drooping muscle.
| Josee wrote: |
This has been a great thread.
To be honest, there is no evidence at all whatsoever that facial excercises do absolutely anything to the skin (or bone).
They could obviously do something for muscles and thus change face structure a bit.
The papers quoted as research really deal with different type of muscles, with different type of fiber distribution, with a lot different weight, tension, etc, etc. So it's really comparing apples to oranges. In resistance excercises where bone grows, the pull used is much bigger than you use on your skin, and when the tendon is stressed it reacts.
In body building, you can stretch and put a lot of stress without really affecting your skin because the muscles are not attached to the skin. So you can pull the muscle and your skin will "slide" and not get really stretched. However, in your face, the muscles are "attached" to the skin so you can't push the muscles as much without pulling the skin.
Yes, I know that some people have had good experiences but is it really due only do the excercises or is it due to their skin care routine? I don't know. I tend to be skeptical in general so unless I see real measurements I just... remain skeptical.
I'm very scared of dynamic wrinkles but I'm not sure that just a bit of excercise every now and then could hurt. I also think that some things could be useful... if with excercises I could strengthen my resting tone for certain muscles (let's say around the mouth area) then maybe I could have a slightly upward mouth resting expression.... that would be nice.
Just my humble opinion. |
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Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:13 am |
Thats interesting, but you know if you look at people who work out, their necks are often in good conditions and I wonder whether that is because they have been able to bulk up their neck muscles and the skin too. Its what I keep telling myself.
| dickymoe wrote: |
Hi Josee,
I swear by frownies, they work because the skin attaches to the muscle on the face.
I contacted the company that makes frownies to inquire why they didn't have frownies for the neck and I was told because the skin on the neck doesn't attach to the muscle, so they wouldn't work. |
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