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Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:39 am  |
Hi, this is my first post  I have to say you guys are very cool! Great reviews (But bad for my bank balance...)
Anyhow, I was wondering if any of you had tried the MD Skincare vitamin C product and whether it worked well?
I've tried the Skinceuticals vitamin C serum, but I'm a bit wary of how quickly it oxidises. I guess I thought a non-serum form of vitamin c may be more stable? (Don't ask me why, just my dodgy logic lol) But you guys seem to know a lot about vit c products.
I'm rambling, sorry, but trying to ask which vit c product would you recommend? |
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Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:25 am |
I haven't tried the MDFormulations one, but just a quick note about the Skinceuticals.
I've tried a few of their serums and once made the mistake of ordering the full size one, which turned out to be a waste of money, because yes it did oxidise way too quickly. I had to throw half of it away. If you are planning on trying the Skinceuticals, then I'd suggest you just use the little sample vials. That saves you having to waste any products, and you use it up before it starts to oxidise. |
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Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:02 am |
| Welcome sheen. I think that as far as serums versus cream is that serums absorb better than creams? I used up a almost a whole bottle of psf vit.c 20 percent and it just started turning on me a week ago. Its a fluid ounce and went a while stable so I think its a very good one. My face just can't tolerate it plus I decided to go with a smaller bottle of jansen and beckett c and c serum to see if it dosen't turn at all being a smaller bottle. |
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Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:42 pm |
Hi ladies,
I am using the skinceuticals c + e ferulic acid serum now. I didn't buy the sample vial but the regular bottle. How can you tell when it starts to oxidize. that would be awful for $90 to go down the tube like that  |
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Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:51 pm |
| I just went by what I'd read others write about how long your serum should be kept for. I use the C + E Feurlic one aswell and I threw it away when it became a dark yellow colour. I think if it's still a pale yellow then it's fine. |
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Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:21 pm |
Thanks for replying!
I like the idea of using the ferulic in vials, I guess the fewer times its exposed to the air when you open it the better. I might stick to it rather than trying the MD one, seeing as it seemed to have worked well on my skin (no miracles, just clearing up and healing spots better than normal) |
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Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:02 am |
| I use the Skinceuticals 10% C and was told by my dermatologist to keep it in a dark place but if it turns dark that it is still fine and not any less effective. This is also what it says on the bottle and what the company said when I contacted them. I usually finish a bottle in 3-4 months and it never gets much darker then very weak tea. At what point is it oxidized and not effective? |
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:32 pm |
Ohhh, I thought if it turned darker that meant it had oxidised and therefore wasn't so great on your skin? Or have I got that totally wrong? 
Has anyone used retinol products with vitamin c serum? I'm asking as I've just been prescribed Retin A for my spots, but still want the protection that vitamin c provides.
Sorry for all the questions! |
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:27 pm |
Hi,
I use my vitamin c in the morning and retinol at night. I've read that you can reduce the effectivness of the retinol if you apply something else. I think if you used both together it might irritate your skin.
I like using philosophy vitamin c powder, and I just mix it into my Replenix CF serum. |
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32/ OPRT-Dallas, TX |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:20 am |
Sheens I use Differin (prescription retinoid) and Vitamin C. You can use RetinA and Vitamin C, like adrianaL said use the C in the morning and the RetinA in the evening. RetinA is a strong retinoid and you may experience too much irritation from using both the RetinA and the Viatmin C, even if you don't apply them at the same time. You will really need to see how your skin reacts. Some can tolerate both and some cannot. I have very sensitive skin and was surprised that I could use both Differin and Viatmin C without any irritation. However, Differin is a weaker retinoid than RetinA. Let us know how they both work for you.
Elfie, Sheens; If Vitamin C serums turn dark then they really aren't good to use. I have heard that a light yellow color is okay but anything more is not good to use. Elfie, I personally would not use a C serum that had turned the color of weak tea! |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:30 am |
| I always feel odd saying I have had such great resuts with philosophy skincare, but, I have. I was using the serum and mixing in the vitamin C powder. I loved it, but then there was confusion about the copper peptides having a negative effect (pro-oxidant)when combined with the vitamin C. I didn't know what to think, yet a friend of mine contacted philosophy and they said there are no negatives. I also read some data from various unbiased studies, and there is certainly some old data, too. Who knows? Anyway, I bought 12 of the sample vials of Skinceuticals C+E+Ferulic and have been using for a couple weeks. I'm not sure, but might like the philosophy better. Also, my hubby kissed me right after I applied the Skinceuticals, and he said, "Wow, you smell like bacon!" haha! So, I told him, "No. Hot dogs." haha, cuz that's what I smell every time I apply it! |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:45 am |
| cedar, I am no expert in this area but I believe that the reason you should not use Vitamin C and copper peptides together is that the acidity of the C deactivates the copper peptides. I believe it causes the copper to disassociate from the peptide.HTH |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:05 am |
| cedar what form of Vitamin C are they using in the Philosophy product? If it is a non acidic form then there would not be a problem combining it with the copper peptides. I looked online and only saw it refered to as a stable form of vitamin c. My guess is that it is not ascorbic acid. |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:17 am |
Hello Cedar & Theresa
Actually, it's the other way round the copper peptide neutralises the Vitamin C (I don't know about the acidity thing), but only when it's on the skin's surface not once it's absorbed and becomes part of the skin - you have both Vit C and copper in the skin naturally always so if you apply each at appropriate intervals it's fine. And I'm not sure what you mean by a negative effect Cedar. It just neutralises the effect of the C product.
So all you need to do is apply at different times of the day. I think most CP users also use Vit C.
BTW, this is only a theory and no-one really knows. Some people think it might be rubbish. I've heard some users on the Skinbio forum are applying C and CPs at the same time and saying they're still getting the same results. |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:28 am |
| Molly, thank you. I could not deny the results I was seeing and liking. I had read that when combined, the effect is the opposite of antioxidant. (pro-oxidant) I kept getting bits of info, but never anything definitive. I think I'll go with, "seeing is believing." |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:32 am |
Dear Cedar,
I love philosophy products too. I started using other things because the eye cream wasn't working for me so I thought I might need a better line. But I am slowly returning to it. I had the best skin of my life using philosophy. No breakouts!!! I just orderd one sample of the C, E+ferulic I hope I don't smell like bacon, I can't stand that smell! |
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32/ OPRT-Dallas, TX |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:17 am |
Molly,
I have read in several places that the acidity of L-ascorbic acid (actually acidity in general) will deactivate copper peptides. This from Derma Doctor:
Do not apply vitamin C products (like Cellex-C or SkinCeuticals) at the same time as copper containing products (Neova) as the vitamin C can neutralize the copper.
I think that it is not so much the Vitamin C as the acidity of l-ascorbic acid which is why I think that the C in the philosophy product is something other than ascorbic acid.
I have heard that aside from deactivating the copper (which would not necessarily be harmful), putting copper peptides in an acidic environment causes the creation of free-copper which can be damaging to the skin in sufficient quantities.
It may also be possible that copper peptides neutralize Vitamin C but I hadn't heard this before you mentioned it.
I would think that if there were something to what I mention about acidity that it could easily be overcome by applying the two prodcuts at different times. I believe most CP users wait 12 hours before applying Vitamin C but I am not sure that is a requirement. |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:50 am |
Molly,
Quick question. Are copper peptides or products containing them acidic or alkaline? Do you know what the pH of most copper peptide products is?
Theresa |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:23 pm |
| Quote: |
| I use my vitamin c in the morning and retinol at night. I've read that you can reduce the effectivness of the retinol if you apply something else. I think if you used both together it might irritate your skin. |
Hi Adriana
I think you're right - people can irritate their skin by using too many actives, but strictly speaking you should be able to use some other actives and Retinol together.
Sorry, I don't mean to imply I'm an expert BTW, it's just I've been reading a lot about this lately because I'm combining CPs and Retinol and want to add C.
From what I read you do need to add Retin A or Retinol to clean skin - so first active, but you can certainly add CPs immediately after Retin A. Retinol needs time (half an hour is suggested) to convert to retinoic acid in the skin and then you can add CPs. So there's no conflict with retinoic acid (Retin A) itself, but retinol shouldn't be interfered with prior to conversion for optimum results.
I've been doing this with Green Cream (retinol) and CPs and it seems a good combo.
Not completely sure about the Vit C, but I think it's the same principle - I'll check that though. Most people prefer to use AM anyway for the added photo-protection so it's not often an issue.
Although I did read in a post from Darren of PSF that research shows you generate twice as much collagen using C overnight, which makes sense considering we generate more collagen at night naturally and the C isn't being used up fighting UV.
Hi Theresa -  I've got today's research lined up for me  |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:10 pm |
Molly,
I did some reserarch today and will do some more. I usually do not read the forums or do a lot of internet research on the weekend. I will probably report back on Monday. Great topic this Vitamin C and copper peptides! It has really made my think. Who would have thought that I would be exercising my brain so much on a skincare forum!!! |
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:33 pm |
Hi Theresa
I've found the answer to at least one of your questions.
It seems the Neova copper breaking down in acids is correct. The *first* generation peptides are unstable in acids. The *second* generation copper peptides, only used by Skinbio are not and can be used with acids.
Both molecules - first and second generation (copper 2+) deactivate Vitamin C, but it's not an acidity issue.
This is enlightening because I remember I think it was Sharky (if they are the acidity/alkalinity expert) saying CPs shouldn't be used in an acid environment, but the strongest Skinbio CP products are combined with Beta hydroxy acids and before that it was recommended you use with glycolic at the same time by Skinbio.
Hi Cedar
I don't like to criticise your favourite product if it's working for you (but I would like to save you some money). Only I've read that the powder Philosophy use is no different to the L-ascorbic powder you can buy in health food shops and online DIY stores. In which case the results you are getting would very much depend on the acidity of the base you put it into. You might have been lucky and put it into the right PH level. I don't know how true this is, Philosophy don't say much about the product to be honest, but you could try the standard powder (around $10 for 125g) and see if you get the same results.
Mission accomplished  M |
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Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:56 am |
Molly,
Here is what I found.
I also read something about the problem with breakdown in acidity being only with the 1st gen. copper peptides and not the 2nd.
This is from the skinbio website and describes how copper peptides are made, it applies to both generations.
"Forming the complexes is extremely easy. A solution of any common copper salt, such as copper chloride or copper sulfate, is dissolved in water. The copper solution is then mixed with at least equimolar peptides and the pH slowly raised by the addition of a base such as sodium hydroxide. As the pH is raised above 5, the formation of copper complexes is virtually instantaneous. If copper salts existed, the copper (II) would immediately form a white precipitate of copper hydroxide."
If you haven't read this here is the link, it goes into a lot more detail and has other interesting information. Look at the chart on making CPs.
http://www.skinbiology.com/aboutunscientificpostscripts.html
I could be wrong here but it would seem logical that copper peptide products would have a pH of over 5. I was assuming that the higher pH would be what deactivated the Vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid form) which need a low pH (2.5) or so to be properly effective. From what you say that is not the reason why. Do you have any idea how CPs deactivate Viatmin C? And would this apply to all forms of Vitamin C or just the ascorbic acid form?
I think this is the comment that sharky made that you are referring to.
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| Most bioactive molecules denature at low pH so that's why I don't use them with the acid loving products. For copper peptides I various people say they shouldn't be used with Vit C or acids I think u have to have a high vit C and copper concentration to have a problem and some people say that there isn't a problem but I just don't use them together. |
I had heard that acids would deactivate, denature, etc. copper peptides but I really did not understand why. Let my further quote sharky. In this post we are discussing palmitol pentapeptides but I think that the explanation can be extended to CPs.
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| I do not know what the pH is but enzymes and peptides lose their bioactivity at low pH. |
When I read this I asked sharky what this meant and here is her explanation. BTW I don't believe sharky is saying that the DNA Repair is a low pH serum that has enzymes! We were discussing ISC Super serum.
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I do not understand serums with low pH and acids that contain peptide and enzyme ingredients (the Remergent DNA Repair is enzyme-based). These are high aspect ratio molecules (long and thin. Like a string they can be folded in many ways but unlike a string they have some areas that have affinity to each other. In order to perform thier tasks they need to associate with other structures in the cells and this can only happen when they are folded in a certain way. In low pH most of these molecules unfold.
The serums likely have the active components inside of micelles or some other protective carrier but I still wouldn't use them at the same time as an acid based product. |
Then there is the whole issue of does it really matter. sharky even alluded to this in the first post I quote. I would think that if there were problems in combining the two that it would be a no-no to put them in the same product. It might even be a no-no to apply them one after the other. But what about waiting 10 minutes? If you apply C serum to your face, what is the pH level of your skin 10 minutes afterwards? What about 30 minutes afterwards?
If I were to use CPs and Vitamin C, I would probably err on the side of caution and wait 12 hours but I don't necessarily know if there is any solid science to back up that decision.
This has been a very interesting discussion! |
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Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:02 am |
Hi The DNA Repair serum says it contains enzymes and it is a moderate pH product (not below 3).
The vit C preps are usually under 3 but you are correct that over time as the product is absorbed and oxidized the pH increases. I don't know the rate.
A long time ago I looked up articles about bad interactions between copper and vitamin C and what came out is that there is only a problem with high C and copper together.
I don't think anyone has done a true material balance of active on the skin (application - transport into the skin- loss from perspiration etc - deactivation).
I use acid things at one time of the day and peptides/hormones/GFs/enzymes at another time but I've never seen a study discussing timing.
I only use CPS as a spot treatment now or after peels. |
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Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:12 pm |
| Sheens, my favorite C is Cellular Skin Rx's C+ Firming serum. It's a 12% formula with no water so no fear of oxidation occurring. Not too expensive either - $38. It is very slippery so a little goes a long way. Other brands that are popular here are the Vivier, JB, PSF brands. All are sold through the EDS site, too. |
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