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Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:13 am  |
| Donell K-Derm Cream-this cream was forulated for bruise and rosacea control.I bought from plastic surgeon for about $45.You may be able to buy off the internet or call co and get free sample.It has vitain K in it and does help redness. |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:04 pm |
Aiva, retinaldehyde is a retinoid, so you are already using it. If you used a version without glycolic acid in it, you would have less irriation from it. You went straight for the gusto. 
I see no advantage to switching to retin-A as retinaldehyde is just as effective IMO, without being as irritating. (Your skin converts retinaldehyde into the active ingredient of retin-A). |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:01 pm |
| Aiva wrote: |
thank you for answering PocoLoco and bethany!
bethany, I hope you are back to normal now from this KH negative effect!
 ... I`m not that red in fact, just my face is little bit pinkish while my neck is creamy-white. Can it be considered pre-rosacea? 
I would really like to try Retin-A for its proved anti-aging properties and it seems that there is no equally effective stuff
may be I could try it cautiously and see what happens?
I`ve been using Avene Diacneal now for about a month, it is a very harsh product I think, containing 0.1% retinaldehyde + 6% glycolic acid. At first my face was very irritated from it and developed red patches after application, but now (after a month of use every other night) it does not react this harsh, just mild and short-term stinging and mild redness sometimes.
Can I judge from my experience with Diacneal wether I should try retinoids or not?
and bethany - would you sacrifice some redness which you can cover with make-up to anti-aging effect from Retin-A if it`s working for you and you can tolerate it?
( I surely do NOT mean if it irritates you as this KH product!) |
Aiva,
Right now I am just trying to figure out what is causing the redness....but I will most definitely go back on Retin A 1-2x a week because the anti-aging benefits overshadow any redness it may be causing me.
You are already using 0.1% retinaldehyde, and the glycolic acid is probably increasing the absorption (thus the irriation).
However, when retinols are converted to retinoic acid in the skin, much of the oomph is lost and they end up being much weaker than if you had used retinioc acid (or trention) found in Retin-A. (though retinaldehyde appears to be part way between a retinol and retinoic acid)
I would recommend not using higher than .05% Retin-A, and the cream over the very drying gel. I would also start out with no more than 1 or 2x a week, and ramp up slowly from there to see how you do.
Here is an overview of the retinol/Retin-A differences:
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| So how are retinol and retinyl palmitate related to the proven-effective tretinoin? According to Dr. Baumann, retinol is classified as a cosmetic rather than a drug because it must first be converted to retinaldehyde, and then all-trans retinoic acid within the skin in order to be effective. In general, retinol is considered to be about 20 times less potent than retinoic acid, and thus higher concentrations of retinol need to be used to achieve similar efficacy to all-trans retinoic acid (i.e., 0.04% or 0.07% versus 0.025%). However, although retinol needs to be present in higher quantities than tretinoin in order to be effective, patients typically experience lower levels of irritation using retinol products. Similarly, retinyl palmitate is a combination of pure retinol and palmitic acid (a substance typically used in cosmetics as a cleansing agent), and so it too must be converted to retinaldehyde and then all-trans retinoic acid within the skin in order to be effective. However, when present in sufficiently high concentrations, retinyl palmitate displays results similar to that of retinol. http://futurederm.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/retinoids/ |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:01 pm |
Hey Aiva,
Its great that you have been using retinaldehyde...it definitely means you can tolerate tretinoin. Actually, tretinoin in a cream base will be less irritating than the combo of retinaldehyde and glycolic acid. Tretinoin is more potent than retinaldehyde bc it has a direct effect on cell receptors and its activity does not depend on conversion rates and other variables so you'll get slightly more benefit, but retinaldehyde in itself (not with glycolic acid) is less irritating.
If it helps, I have sensitive skin and eczema (on inside of arms and slight eczema on the top of my cheek bones) but still use a .025% tretinoin (Renova) even on areas of irritated skin. I actually feel like it helps bc I've noticed a reduction in inflammation and redness. In fact, it was just recently discovered that tretinoin actually has an anti-inflammatory effect on skin. I've also noticed that area of my skin has significantly strengthened (retinoids increase skin strength and barrier properties)
Here is the article from pubmed about anti-inflammatory effects of tretinoin...
Inflammation resolved by retinoid X receptor-mediated inactivation of leukotriene signaling pathways.
Kalsotra A, Du L, Wang Y, Ladd PA, Kikuta Y, Duvic M, Boyd AS, Keeney DS, Strobel HW.
University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston, 6431 Fannin St., Medical School Bldg. 6, Room 200, Houston, TX 77030, USA.
Leukotrienes are implicated in the pathogenesis of diverse, inflammation-driven diseases. Metabolic inactivation of leukotriene signaling is an innate response to resolve inflammation, yet little is known of mechanisms regulating disposition of leukotrienes in peripheral tissues afflicted in common inflammatory diseases. We studied leukotriene hydroxylases (CYP4F gene products) in human skin, a common target of inflammation and adverse drug reactions. Epidermal keratinocytes express at least six CYP4F enzymes; the most highly expressed and highly regulated is CYP4F3A-the main neutrophil leukotriene hydroxylase. Differentiation-specific factors and retinoids are positive CYP4F regulators in vitro, effecting increased leukotriene B4 hydroxylation (inactivation). CYP4F expression is up-regulated in situ in hyperproliferative dermatoses-an innate mechanism to repair and restore epidermal barrier competency-and after retinoid therapy. Enhanced CYP4F-mediated inactivation of leukotriene signaling is a previously unrecognized antiinflammatory property of therapeutic retinoids mediated by preferential interactions between retinoid X receptors and CYP4F promoter elements in epidermal cells.
So it really wouldn't hurt to try it and worth it bc it is THE best cell-communicating topical on the market and ranks in importance just behind sunscreen. You'll never know if you don't give it a try. However, retinaldehyde can be almost equally effective and if you get a topical with just retinaldehyde it would be less irritating...but if your skin can tolerate with glycolic acid as well then you can def stick with that one.
If you think you might have pre-rosacea then its always best to find out from a derm. I also found info of research that retinaldehyde improves symptoms of rosacea...
A less potent form of this class of drugs is Retinaldehyde,whose primary use is to aid in the elimination of rosacea and in the reduction of wrinkles. In a study conducted by the Fabre Institute (Toulouse, France) female patients were treated with a 0.05% concentrated retinaldehyde cream applied once daily for six months after measuring the degree of erythema and isolated telangiectasia. Clinical studies proved that 75% of the 23 women in the
study responded positively to the drug.5 For those concerned with the appearance of redness or those suffering from Rosacea, this has been proven to be an effective, yet mild, treatment for the condition. |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:10 pm |
| Ocean14 wrote: |
| In fact, it was just recently discovered that tretinoin actually has an anti-inflammatory effect on skin. |
Now this is the best news I have had all day! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:14 pm |
Hey Bethany,
Just saw your post and agree with everything you said. What else are using that may cause redness? I too have sensitive skin, but will def not give up my retinoid! I agree 100% with your quote:
| Quote: |
| Right now I am just trying to figure out what is causing the redness....but I will most definitely go back on Retin A 1-2x a week because the anti-aging benefits overshadow any redness it may be causing me. |
I have pretty sensitive skin, but I was really suprised when using a retinoid bc it never really irritated (not much redness) my skin as much as I thought it would. In fact, the tops of cheek bones usu get irritated pretty easily (derm said its eczema) and I thought perhaps the retinoid was causing inflammation, but turns out it wasn't and has actually really helped. So IMO def give it another try, and perhaps use an anti-inflammatory moisturizer over it like Topix Replenix or a barrier repair moisturizer like Atopalm, or whatever you have that has sim properties of these two.
Hope it works out for you! |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:16 pm |
| Quote: |
| Now this is the best news I have had all day! |
lol...I was actually really suprised by this finding bc usu we all think of retinoids and the irritating effects! |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:47 pm |
| skincareaddicted wrote: |
Hi Kakarot,
Welcome  . My mom has rosacea and a product that has almost eliminated the redness is skinceuticals phyto corrective gel. it is amazing the improvement to her skin. on better days, there is no redness at all.
I would also suggest using sensitive/mild skin care regime. I am sure the other ladies on this forum will have more suggestions. |
The skinceutical phyto corrective gel is great for eliminating redness and providing a light moisturizer to the skin. It's also very gentle so it tends not to aggravate the skin, which some products can do and cause additional redness. |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:06 pm |
| Ocean14 wrote: |
Hey Bethany,
Just saw your post and agree with everything you said. What else are using that may cause redness? I too have sensitive skin, but will def not give up my retinoid! I agree 100% with your quote:
| Quote: |
| Right now I am just trying to figure out what is causing the redness....but I will most definitely go back on Retin A 1-2x a week because the anti-aging benefits overshadow any redness it may be causing me. |
I have pretty sensitive skin, but I was really suprised when using a retinoid bc it never really irritated (not much redness) my skin as much as I thought it would. In fact, the tops of cheek bones usu get irritated pretty easily (derm said its eczema) and I thought perhaps the retinoid was causing inflammation, but turns out it wasn't and has actually really helped. So IMO def give it another try, and perhaps use an anti-inflammatory moisturizer over it like Topix Replenix or a barrier repair moisturizer like Atopalm, or whatever you have that has sim properties of these two.
Hope it works out for you! |
I am only using 302 products (which have toned down the redness), and Remergent DNA. I am very fair and have very translucent skin..sometimes I feel like one of those watches where you can see the parts moving, lol.
I am thinking that the redness might not be from irritation, but perhaps increased vascular growth from the Retin-A.
BTW, I recently read that Retin-A also suppresses melanin production...this stuff gets better and better every day!  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:36 pm |
| Quote: |
I am only using 302 products (which have toned down the redness), and Remergent DNA. I am very fair and have very translucent skin..sometimes I feel like one of those watches where you can see the parts moving, lol.
I am thinking that the redness might not be from irritation, but perhaps increased vascular growth from the Retin-A.
BTW, I recently read that Retin-A also suppresses melanin production...this stuff gets better and better every day! |
ooo I am so jealous your using Remergent DNA. Right now I am settling with the Clinique Continuous Rescue Antiox Moisturizer which uses three DNA repair enzymes in Remergent (supplied from same company AGI Dermatics) but much less conc. tho.
The redness really could be from vascular growth. Even tho irritating, retinoids help the skin perform at its "optimum" level of so it has therapeutic benefits to correct skin abnormalities so will really help your skin, even if you can only use sparingly.
And like you said, retinoids get better everyday. I just recently found that article about its anti-inflamm properties and also found another about its effect on elastin growth and aging (prev. we only knew its effect on collagen). I plan on writing a post which list all the benefits plus that new study on elastin. Therefore everyone could just have a list of all the available benefits retinoids provide! |
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Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:32 am |
| I agree with V-beam laser. I am the one who have redness from acne from allergic. If your redness occur recently, V-beam can improve your skin very well. |
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Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:33 am |
| I agree with V-beam laser. I am the one who have redness from acne from allergic. If your redness occur recently, V-beam can improve your skin very well. |
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Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:34 am |
| I agree with V-beam laser. I am the one who have redness from acne from allergic. If your redness occur recently, V-beam can improve your skin very well. |
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Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:04 am |
thank you everybody for answering! 
Ocean, these are really good news about Retin-A`s anti-inflammatory effect!
why I`m thinking of switching to Retin-A while using retinaldehyde is that the Diacneal has glycolic acid what I do not like and I`m not able to get Retrinal (0.1% retinaldehyde only) here in Europe. And of course tretinoin is still more potent than retinaldehyde.
I can`t say for sure wether I`m tolerating this Diacneal or not - I have never had peeling from it, but always had some sort of irritation after application. And I think the added glycolic acid makes an unnecessary irritation for me here.
Talking about concentration and convertion of retinaldehyde into retinoic acid - does anybody know how many times retinaldehyde loses its strength while being converted?
what % of Retin-A should I start with if I`m using 0.1% retinaldehyde now?
can I go directly to 0.05% Retin-A or should better start with 0.025%? |
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31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:23 pm |
| Quote: |
Talking about concentration and convertion of retinaldehyde into retinoic acid - does anybody know how many times retinaldehyde loses its strength while being converted?
what % of Retin-A should I start with if I`m using 0.1% retinaldehyde now?
can I go directly to 0.05% Retin-A or should better start with 0.025%? |
Hey Aiva,
Retinaldehyde in Avene is at high conc., but retinaldehyde since it has to be converted to retinoic acid is still not as irritating as say Retin-A. I think it would be best if you started off with .025%. Its better to start off safe and it has been proven that .025% strength is just as effective as higher strengths like .05%. Thats why Renova which used to be .05% reduced their conc. down to .025%. So you're still getting the exact same benefits, but less irritation!
I think your skin is pretty well tolerated for a rx retinoid (considering Avene has hi conc. of glycolic acid as well), but best to start off w/ lower conc. of tretinoin. I'm still using .025% as well. You can always use a moisturizer over top say if you move up to .05% (thats what I plan to do). Just make sure to wait at least 30 min (preferably an hr) to give time for the retinoic acid to activate all the receptors.
BTW the area of my cheek bones were slightly red/irritated again the other day (whenever I go outside it happens...allergies i guess). Used Renova at night, and woke up this morning completely normal. So once your skin is adapted, it works wonders! |
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Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:37 pm |
| Ocean14 wrote: |
| And like you said, retinoids get better everyday. I just recently found that article about its anti-inflamm properties and also found another about its effect on elastin growth and aging (prev. we only knew its effect on collagen). I plan on writing a post which list all the benefits plus that new study on elastin. Therefore everyone could just have a list of all the available benefits retinoids provide! |
That would be fabulous!! And if you could share any links to articles/studies that you have read when you do so, I would love to read them! |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:48 am |
| Ocean14 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Talking about concentration and convertion of retinaldehyde into retinoic acid - does anybody know how many times retinaldehyde loses its strength while being converted?
what % of Retin-A should I start with if I`m using 0.1% retinaldehyde now?
can I go directly to 0.05% Retin-A or should better start with 0.025%? |
Hey Aiva,
Retinaldehyde in Avene is at high conc., but retinaldehyde since it has to be converted to retinoic acid is still not as irritating as say Retin-A. I think it would be best if you started off with .025%. Its better to start off safe and it has been proven that .025% strength is just as effective as higher strengths like .05%. Thats why Renova which used to be .05% reduced their conc. down to .025%. So you're still getting the exact same benefits, but less irritation!
I think your skin is pretty well tolerated for a rx retinoid (considering Avene has hi conc. of glycolic acid as well), but best to start off w/ lower conc. of tretinoin. I'm still using .025% as well. You can always use a moisturizer over top say if you move up to .05% (thats what I plan to do). Just make sure to wait at least 30 min (preferably an hr) to give time for the retinoic acid to activate all the receptors.
BTW the area of my cheek bones were slightly red/irritated again the other day (whenever I go outside it happens...allergies i guess). Used Renova at night, and woke up this morning completely normal. So once your skin is adapted, it works wonders! |
thank you Ocean!
why are you planning to move to 0.05% saying that the benefits of the lower strength 0.025% are exactly the same? |
_________________
31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:20 am |
| Quote: |
| why are you planning to move to 0.05% saying that the benefits of the lower strength 0.025% are exactly the same? |
Hey Aiva,
The main reason I am eventually going to move up to .05% is bc I like to use a moisturizer over the retinoid. Moisturizer can dilute the retinoid a little so .025% with a moisturizer is actually less than .025. I don't use one with Renova bc it already comes in a moisturizing base, but once I get generic tretinoin I'll prob increase the conc. Plus .05% is a good conc. in the middle of .025% and .1%. So when you order a retinoid you can always get .05% as well, and just mix it with a little moisturizer/oil and you can therefore make your own "Renova" that is moisturizing and has good conc. of tretinoin. But once your skin is adapted its better to not mix the two and apply a retinoid, wait 30-60 min and then moisturizer. |
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:33 am |
| Ocean14 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| why are you planning to move to 0.05% saying that the benefits of the lower strength 0.025% are exactly the same? |
Hey Aiva,
The main reason I am eventually going to move up to .05% is bc I like to use a moisturizer over the retinoid. Moisturizer can dilute the retinoid a little so .025% with a moisturizer is actually less than .025. I don't use one with Renova bc it already comes in a moisturizing base, but once I get generic tretinoin I'll prob increase the conc. Plus .05% is a good conc. in the middle of .025% and .1%. So when you order a retinoid you can always get .05% as well, and just mix it with a little moisturizer/oil and you can therefore make your own "Renova" that is moisturizing and has good conc. of tretinoin. But once your skin is adapted its better to not mix the two and apply a retinoid, wait 30-60 min and then moisturizer. |
I see. thanks Ocean! |
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31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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