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Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:19 am  |
I looked through her book The Complete Beauty Bible yesterday for some ideas what indigients are good for skin. However, I don't know what to say, maybe disappointed or sad, in her book, it seems she claims almost nothing is effective for the aging skin. For example, Vit.C which is very popular now has not tested whether it is effective for aging skin, even though it is proven to be good anti-UV; Copper petide is not effective either for aging skin because it doesn't means it has the same effect for aging skin even though it is good for wounded one; Retinol is not effective either (very few report on it she said) for aging skin even though Retin-A has been proven; Emu oil is not either because not report on it.
I don't know what she says it is right or not, but I feel a bit disappointed and confused at what I am using and going to buy. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:12 am |
| boy that IS depressing news, so it looks like I have been throwing my money down the drain.... |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:24 am |
I Love Paula’s Books and have, and use, them all. I think much of her info on how ingredients work, or do not work is very good. However some is not as good. But this is true of any "source" Her info on how some of the Essential oils work is not as good, among other things. Her recomendation of detergent based cleansers is not really great, in my opinion, because of damagege vs. cleaning ratio. When there are some very good detergent free, and much milder cleansers that do well. But they are not at drugstores, so I can forgive her for that one. 
But in general she has lots of very good info overall.
I think if you understand where Paula is coming from, and what she bases her opinions on, and use her as “one” source in your arsenal – though not your only source you will do fine. I do not use her as my only “authority”
I work in the Skincare field as a consultant and deal with Labs and companys daily, so I get to talk to many industry experts in the field. And much of her info is very accurate on how the skin and ingredients function.
She bases her criteria on what is proven, with valid peer review studies. and in that case she is completelycorrect.
Retin A:
Retin A, will not prevent skin aging.  It can help treat it, but will not prevent you from getting wrinkles. It can help lessen the appearance of wrinkles, softening them, and removing lighter ones. Many studies prove this, which Paula notes. But it only works as long as you use it. So it never “fixed” the wrinkled skin. Because once you stop Retin A – the wrinkle returns, as the damaged tissue is still there. Though often some repair is done with continued use – so the visible appearance of damage is less.
From Paulas Site;
Retin-A, Renova, Avita (drug name tretinoin) and Tazorac (drug name tazarotene), prescribed by your doctor or dermatologist, are still the gold standards among topical prescription products for improving the appearance of sun-damaged (wrinkled and discolored) skin. Tretinoin has the ability to return abnormal skin cell production back to some level of normalcy—think of it as the guru of cell-communicating ingredients.
The result in most cases is an improvement in skin's collagen production, which makes skin smoother and offers a modest (but noticeable) decrease in the depth and appearance of wrinkles; Tazarotene is believed to work similarly to tretinoin (Sources: Cutis, February 2005, pages 10-13; Mechanisms of Ageing and Development, July 2004, pages 465-473; and Dermatologic Surgery, June 2004, pages 864-866).
Retinol
I agree, it not fgoing to do what Retin A does, but if it is well formulated, it can help some. Most over the counter versions are NOT well formulated. Percentages are to low. Some specialy version can be bought online that do work better, but again - not the same as Retin A - because Retinal must convert to Retin A in the skin. This conversion is tricky and does not always do well. So it varys from person to person.
Emu Oil:
Emu oil is not an anti aging ingredient. It will not remove wrinkles. It will not firm skin. That’s not what it does. So it cannot be considered an anti aging ingredient on its own. It is one tool that can assist in your skin refinement process.
What it does do is moisturize and help other ingredients penetrate better. It is not the only ingredient that does this, but it is one that does it well. It also help heal the skin barrier as do many other moisturizers.
From her site:
A study published in the Australasian Journal of Dermatology (August 1996, pages 159–161), looked at the "Cosmetic and moisturizing properties of Emu oil... assessed in a double-blind clinical study. Emu oil in comparison to mineral oil was found overall to be more cosmetically acceptable and had better skin penetration/permeability. Furthermore it appears that Emu oil in comparison to mineral oil has better moisturizing properties, superior texture, and lower incidence of comedogenicity, but probably because of the small sample size these differences were not found to be statistically significant.
a more recent study compared the anti-inflammatory ability of emu oil with several other oils, including olive and flaxseed. The oils were applied to mouse ears after their skin was irritated with a volatile oil, and cellular irritant response was measured several hours later. The results showed emu oil had somewhat better anti-inflammatory properties than the other oils in the study, though not by a substantial margin compared to more readily available oils, including olive (Source: Lipids, June 2003, pages 603-607). Reducing inflammation is a valid reason to consider emu oil, but other oils (and several antioxidants) perform the same function. Moreover, none of this means emu oil is the answer for aging or wrinkled skin. Like many ingredients, it has soothing, emollient properties, but it isn’t the miracle marketers make it out to be.
(sorry I cannot post links yet, this is all from her site under the LEARN area)
That is correct, and characterizes what Emu is and does. And is one reason I use and recommend it. Its great for what it does, which is moisturize. And its mild enough an non clogging so many people can easily use it.
Other oils also work in similar ways, Jojoba, Mineral, Raspberry, etc. But they have differing attributes, which change when and how you use them. They are good options also in the right circumstance.
Copper Peptides:
Again Paula IS correct. The studies on CP show it does not help remodel skin except in wounded skin. But that is because she has never seen the studies on wrinkled skin, remodeled skin. They were not submitted to the FDA at all. So Paula never saw them.
The original CP product was tested as a damaged skin repair product. (The Skin Biology one which is the most effective, due to the type of CPs used) Which it did well on.
The same formula was then used in the wrinkled skin trial. It did not do as well. The formula was refined and used with a BHA to help penetration, and other studies did show it worked well. CP produced a 70% change in aged skin vs 50% for Retin A and 40 % for Vit C. This study is on the skin bio site – but it was not submitted to the FDA.
Because of the costs involved the Manufacturer never submitted the CP to the Wrinkled skin tests again, it is very costly, and they already did less them stellar on the other test, so it was not worth the cost to go through all that again.
When the original tests were done, they were backed by a large cosmetic firm. But later when Dr Pickart, left and Started Skin Biology, and refined the product to the Second Generation (some feel the more effective) Copper Peptides, he did not have the budget for more FDA trials. So he did not pursue that option.
So Paula is 100% correct, the studies don’t back the claims. BUT that’s not the full story – Anecdotal info from the many users do back the claims. Being a three year Copper peptide User, and having used gazillions of other things, myself I love and strongly recommend the product.
It completely changed my UBER oily, chronically acne prone skin (of 20 years) completely (along with other changes. And at 42 I have better skin then I did at 35 , have removed scars, and look a good 5-10 years younger then my age.
But has it completely turned back the clock for me? Nope, My skin is firmer, less lined, more fresh, normal as opposed to oily, acne free, normal pore sized now - but I still have some fine lines under and around my eyes, though they are softer. And I am still working on them, so there is still hope, as they slowly get better and better.
Like anything, it will not work for everyone. Just one more tool that is available though. 
Vitamin C:
Correct. It is NOT an anti-ager. But it can help on lightening, some on collagen rebuilding and such. BUT it must be formulated correctly many of the C products out there are ineffective. Either to low a percent, incorrect pH, bad formulation, wrong Vit C form. Not all forms of Vit C are very skin permeable, and few actually can do much in the way of collagen repair. (which is the anti-aging effect needed) All forms are a great antioxidant. But an antioxidant does not fix wrinkles.
L-ascorbic acid is the best, and most effective, as far as skin permeability and collagen repair. But your over the counter vitamin C pill or powder is not going to penetrate the skin well. It is made up of both L-ascorbic acid and D-ascorbic acid. The D version is useless for skin. So to use a vitamin C pill you need to double the amount of C in your formula, making it to strong and to acidic for most users. You can adjust the pH, but then the Vit C degrades very fast. Other fillers in a pill will also effect formulation.
So you need to have a product with only the L version for best results. But that is hard to find. (though it is out there, as I use one in a DIY product)
Other forms of Vit C are less skin permeable, less effective in collagen issues, but more stable. Spo are often used in skincare for thios reason. But they are not great treatments for aged skin. Good for lightening though, and antioxitive issues.
Vit C in its most effective skin permiable form is unstable, degrades with light, air, heat. And even in formulation with stabilizers, starts to degrade immediately. So generally has a short shelf life. Againm making it hard to buy an effective product.
But it does help aged skin , Paula’s comments here:
But back to vitamin C. When it comes to applying this vitamin topically at levels ranging from 0.3-10%, the benefits are:
• Potent antioxidant, particularly in regard to protecting skin cells from UV-induced damage
• Delays tumor formation after (animal) skin is exposed to extensive UV damage
• Has a low risk of skin sensitization at concentrations up to 10% in the form of ascorbic acid
• Reduces transepidermal water loss, thus strengthening skin's barrier response
• Promotes collagen production and has the potential to thicken the dermis
• Reduces inflammation
• Ascorbic acid at levels of 5% and above has a positive effect on hyperpigmentation (though the results are not as impressive as hydroquinone, suggesting a combination of the two would be optimal)
• Improves the appearance of sun-damaged skin by strengthening skin's repair mechanisms
• Enhances the effectiveness of dermatologist-performed procedures such as peels and microdermabrasion
So its all understanding where Paula’s is coming from, and using her as one source, though backing her info with other legitimate accurate sources. (not just sales rep claims either)
So formulation is the key, as with most things.
She is correct, there is no proven Anti-aging product, that will 100% remove and repair damaged aged skin, and make you look 25 again. Its not out there. Sunscreen is the best anti-ager.
But there are many good tools that can certainly help skin look and feel better, though only as long as you use them. So they are not permamnant.
The key is to understand what they can, and cannot do. And use them correctly, and appropriately for your needs. Not a shot gun effect. Or this line is the "end all be all" product.
Anti-aging concerns are a muli-level issue, I donot feel there is one single product to address all the needs for the average person with aged skin concerns. I think you need a few different products, tailored to your situation. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:56 am |
| I read this book. This book is great with a lot of very useful information. But Because Paula's skin is dry and sensitive, her opinion is not for everybody. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:56 am |
Dear Tangal, thank you very much for your reply and your useful information.
Yes you are right that her opinion should be regarded one source of the information.
My problem is, as one of the common consumers, I don't know where to get more information to adjust information or opinion from someone else. For example, many companies making Vit.C serum claim their products can boots collegen, lighting skin and so on, and the source of my information is from what many companies claim. When I read Paula's book, there are quite some critical opinion from her. Then I am confused and disappointed and don't know who to trust.
By the way, can you recommond some Vit.C products which are formulated well and have actual effectiveness? Thank you again. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:22 am |
| Lianghiz? You took the words right out of my mouth! I too am totally confused as to which claims by which company to believe! But thanks so much, Tangal, for all your information. I would be also be very happy if you could suggest which Vit C product and Copper Peptide products to purchase. I am sure the majority of EDS members feel the same way! Keep informing us! |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:33 am |
| Tangal? What can you tell us about DMAE? Is it an effective skin firming product? Thanks for any info you can give us on this.. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:46 am |
| ick I had a long post and lost it! Let me try again, I will address DMAE and Vit C.....my issue is I can't add supporting links....arghhhhhh |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:03 pm |
| Can you send a PM, Tangal? Or what about an email? thanks.. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:04 pm |
| well I lost that post, but I will post here again, I am retyping it. You can PM me, thats fine also, but I will add it hang on. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:07 pm |
| Her information are based on studies (I.E. facts) a lot of the other info we hear is anecdotal, so Vitamin C MAY prevent aging, but there haven't been any studies that have proved it. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:10 pm |
Okay trying yet again…..
Some good links for info (bear with me here, I am to new to post links, so I will fake it) See if you can figure the site out from my “links”
Pubmed..com - you can look up every ingredient and see what it does, and how it was tested (human or animal) and results. So you can search on “Vitamin C and Collagen” for example. Then skim the studies, they are hard to read, but usually you can scroll down and read “Results” for a final assessment. Not all studies are listed in detail, so you may need to use other sources like Google-Scholor on the Google site , or High beam research etc for more info.
Also don’t forget both FDA*gov to see if the ingredient was tested for what they claim, and what is listed about it. The FDA has a cosmetic section.
Aad*org – the American Academy of Dermatology – lots of good info on ingredients and how if they work.
Dermadoc*com more good info – though she does push her high price products, so keep that in mind when reading recommendations. But still some good info if you can sift through it.
Makeupalley*com and this site of course for REAL person reviews. Very helpful. Just realize not everyone’s results will be the same as yours, and of course use common sense. If it’s to good to believe, double check other sources as well.
I have more links, like Harvard Medical and Health notes if you need info on vitamins and Suppliments, which I am a firm believer in as well. Skin looks best if treated from the inside out.
Okay Vitamin C. I am sure there are other good lines, but most I find are more pricey then these. I like the line carried at dianayvonne*com, skincarecentral*biz. This is Professional Solutions. They have both good and bad products, but the ones on the above sites are generally well formulated.
Both the same products, both sites have samples to buy, and Skincare site has a 20% off coupon.
Do keep in mind a sample size is probably to small to see real results, as Vit C normally takes a few weeks to show results, as long as 6 to 8. But you can see if you have negative reactions anyway.
There are a few types of Vit C here, and differing strengths. The Triple C did very well on the DY messageboard users, and it actually uses an Ester C version – which is said to be as effective as the L-ascorbic version. She does site a study which you can look up on Pub Med, the study came out AFTER Paulas books, so she did not address it.
But there is an L-ascorbic version also.
But if I wanted to purchase a Vit C product, I would look at these. They are pricy, but cheaper then most other “good” versions I have seen, so in a good price range.
You can also review Paulas Site or her Book “Don’t Go To The Cosmetics Counter Without Me” it is from 2003 – so does not review current products. But of the ones listed, she does note if they are well enough formulated to keep the active ingredients stable and working. So that can help on specific lines/brands.
I actually make my own vit C product however. It works fine for my needs, is super cheap, and I can easily make it every 30 days. So degradation is not an issue. For me Copper does more for my skin overall IMO, so I only use the Vit C as an add on. So a bit of degradation is not an issue.
But if you really want effective, you may want to spring for a “Pro” formula from the sites above, just incase you “cooking skills” made your product ineffective, which is easy to do with Vit C.
DMAE is next..... |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:26 pm |
DMAE…..
Yes it may work, or may not. Some people have great results, some not so great. Much depends on the form of DMAE, (bitartrate vs. anim) as well as percentage, and product formulation
Again hard to know which is which. But this may help.
DMAE when well formulated does work as a temporary firmer/tightener for many people. Its great for saggy undereye skin especially. Some find it does well under the jaw also. For me facial exercises do more there though.
Results stick for roughly for about 10 to 12 hours. Then effects wear off. However with consecutive use, (i.e. months or more, used daily) some people do find that they seem to get more “long term effects that fade slower. So more of a “temporary” permanent effect. If that make sense. But when you stop using it completely, it will eventually fade away, or so it seems.
And some people have great immediate results, some have none even with extended use. Part is formulation, as covered in detail the other DMAE thread. Because of the way products are labeled and the forms used, often there is simply to little DMAE to be effective.
Manufacturers are working on this right now to create a more constant and effective formula.
I have used a few DMAE products, with differing results, some good, some okay, some …nothing.
I do still use one now for daily use from ifeelprettyproducts**com which is an Antioxidant DMAE liquid, which I mix with facial oils and apply daily. I do get some results under my eyes, though I think other products for me do more. But I use this as one more tool. But it is not dramatic for me, or for most people, as their only option.
The Intensive Nutrition Liquid worked well for me. (the sites in my other post above carry it I think) I have used one from Garden Of Wisdom about a year ago, and for me it did not do as well. I will admit, I still have some, and will try again with it at some point. But I did not like the formulation as much as the one I use now.
The Intensive Nutrition gel did not do as well on me. The Pure Deeming also did not do as well, and I did not like the formula. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:28 pm |
I think you asked about Copper?
What are you asking specifically? Sources?
skinbiology **com or dianayvonne**com are two good ones I have used alot.
They have samples packs, and the SB board has lots of help. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:56 pm |
Keep in mind that Paula is just one opinion. She does not have a medical background; I believe the only training she has is in cosmotologoly.(spelling?)
I have read Paula's books and there is some basic information in there and good if you know NOTHING about skincare. (Most women here know about sunscreens, etc.) If you are interested I would borrow from the library.
A more recent book is "the Skin Type Solutions" by Dr. Baumann. She is a derm. Good questions about skin typing and why certain ingredients are better than others for certain skin types. I don't necessarily agree with her product choices but she does give a range from drugstore to department to special order/online. Again if you can borrow from the library and use her suggestions as a guide. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:47 pm |
| Well here's another opinion on Paula's books ... a friend of mine has a very long career in cosmetics and skincare. She owns a makeup artist studio and agency (professional level - they do TV, films, video, etc.). She is known as the "guru" of makeup, etc. When I talked to her about Paula's book some time ago, she said it was complete crap and a total joke. This girl is VERY knowledgable, so its a strong opinion that may have some validity behind it, though I'm sure Paula's books must have some good information in them! |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:48 pm |
| Tangal, PLEASE keep posting - you provide a lot of good information, and I know we all appreciate it! |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:35 pm |
thanks...not sure,...still feeling things out. Will see, trying not to offend, step on toes, or intrude.
But thanks all the same. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:05 pm |
Paula is an Aestatician, with a number of years experience working in the cosmetic industry. And her years of research, and talking to labs, formulaters, Derms and such.
Some things she gets right, some things she gets wrong. Some she gets sort of right. But thats okay – because the field of Science as a whole has millions or theory’s and much speculation behind many claims. Fact is more elusive.
And it changes often as new more accurate info comes around. I have seen Paula change her stance on many things, as more info became available. But she does help your sift it better. And she was one of the first to step out in 1982, and say “Marketing hype is not all true” which no one else would do. That I think was/is good.
I think her material is a good base to work with, as long as one is aware of the limits and uses it as one source. She is certainly not the “end all – be all” – but she does well at providing a good base to work with on a subject that baffles many. And I think her material about market info and the deception involved is excellent for any consumer to read, so they have a better understanding of how to spend more wisely.
She has both those who love her and hate her in the Cosmetic industry. I guess much like any “expert” in any field.
We all have our fans, and our enemies…LOL Hopefully more fans- less enemies. |
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:44 pm |
| Tangel, what exact product are you using that has copper peptides? |
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:46 am |
The Copper I use is the Skin Biology line. I personally feel, based on my research, it is the most effective available for the cost for me, with the most “bang for the buck”. This is the Second Generation Copper, not the first generation, which is what Procyte and Neutrogena use. The other products can be effective, but lower percentage of activity, work slower and less dramatic results.
I actually use the Super Cop Serum, mixed with the Super COP 2X cream on face, neck, chest hands. But no one should start at that level. To high.
Rather start with the beginner products, or the Standard Copper Cream, or Copper Serum. (Depending on skintype, the cream is not great for many who are acne prone or sensitive because it includes menthol and some pore clogging thickeners). Use product very dilute with water, once a week. SLOWLY working up to full strength, once or twice daily use.
Just a side note. Copper works best when used with a BHA to enhance penetration. I also like to pair it with a good AHA.
BHA (salicylic acid) is not the same as “The Aspirin Mask” or Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) – Both are different chemically with different attributes. Both are the same family salicylates, both share some common attributes, but BHA is superior as a pore cleaner compared the Aspirin. (BHA= C7H6O3, Aspirin= C9H8O4, they also have different molecular weights/densities, and sizes. (Weight and size effect skin/pore penetration ability)
They are closely related, like my sister and I, have some similarities in shared looks, and some talents (we are both good artists, and short) But chemically they are different (my Sis and I do not have all the same DNA, though some pieces are identical, many other parts are not. And both do have different actions (If you talk to me on the phone or see me in person, I look and act, and sound different then my Sister)
Aspirin is created when BHA Is chemically altered to create Aspirin. And BHA cannot be ingested as Aspirin can, because it is a toxin in large quantities. But both are anti-inflammatory, which makes then great for sensitive and acne prone skin. However BHA is a much more effective pore cleanser, exfoliate. And it is much different then AHA in how it works to exfoliate.
The only reason I address this, in because many people I consult with, refuse to try BHA, because they use or have used an Aspirin mask, with good or bad results. And think it’s the same, its not.
I am not opposed to an aspirin mask, but results with a well formulated BHA are superior and more effective then aspirin. And most people who switch do see a difference in skin reaction.
So depending on what you want your product to do, one may suit you better then the other. Thats fine. Just make sure you use the appropriate one for your needs.
If you have oily skin, a good BHA will help all your other activities penetrate much better, because it is the acid that best penetrates skin oil, and gets into the pores. Other acids are poor oil penetrates, and have limited activity in the pore. When treating skin with treatment products, good penetration into the pore is key to effectiveness. Even those with normal and dry skin often benefit from a BHA if they use treatment products.
But keep in mind, like AHA, BHA effectiveness is closely tied into proper pH and formulation. If your pH is to high – as all drugstore BHAs, and most AHAs are, then it is poorly effective. And just because it is high-end does not guaranty formulation integrity. You need to know product pH and formulation to find an effective product.
Both need a low pH for best results, and pH directly influences effectiveness on the skin.
Sorry, so long. Just my tip for the day. Take it for what its worth, which is just another opinion, one of many others – so only worth that. LOL  |
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:47 am |
| Thanks every one, especially Tangal. I think the best way for me to get more information and truth is to visit this forum and others more often. |
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:20 am |
| Thanks Tangal lots of great information very much appreciated. |
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:23 am |
| Quote: |
| it seems she claims almost nothing is effective for the aging skin. For example, Vit.C which is very popular now has not tested whether it is effective for aging skin, even though it is proven to be good anti-UV;etc........ |
This is just the 'spin' she puts on it. For example Perricone would claim the most aging things are UV damage and inflammation so Vit C reduces damage from UV and emu oil is anti-inflammatory so they *are* both anti-aging.
A lot of the rest you're talking about 'therapy' rather than a 'cure' so once you stop doing it the skin degrades again, but on the other hand while you have that healthier structure to the deeper layer of the skin (e.g. increased collagen and elastin etc.) your skin will be functioning better so not degrading/aging so quickly.
She's useful to a point, but I wouldn't read her like a bible. |
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:58 am |
| So...to put it briefly, as long as you use skin care that is totally packed with anti oxidants (the more the better) thats the clear winner. Oh yes, and use sunblock in the daytime. |
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