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Info on pH and product application wait times
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fat_swan
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Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:59 am      Reply with quote
Thank you Tangal!!!!!

I came across this thread through the vitamin C DIY thread, and while I realize this thread is rather old, I have a question that nobody's been able to answer and I wonder if anyone over here can please help..?

Tangal wrote about how pH is irrelevant when using retinoids (vit A) or vit c as an antioxitant as opposed to as a skin treatment. My question is, what's the difference?

TIA! TIA! TIA!
Septembergirl
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Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:29 am      Reply with quote
I think there is one huge problem with this whole thread. The information about wait times is not based on any scientific articles or reliable sources.

According to the author of this thread, "info is compiled from a number of web and printed sources" and "some old posts on skin care forums".

As far as I have found, the only skin care products that certainly requires a wait time, are the vitamin A creams such as Tretinoin creams and Tazorac.

This is from the Tretinoin cream instructions:

Quote:
Let the face dry 20-30 minutes before applying tretinoin.

http://www.fda.gov/CDER/foi/nda/98/75264_Tretinoin_prntlbl.pdf
(see page 2)


I am currently using a 10 % vitamin C serum from SkinCeuticals, and the instructions on Melbourne Dermatology's website say nothing about wait times:

Quote:
SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF. Instructions for use: Once in the morning after cleansing, apply 4-5 drops to a dry face, neck and chest. Follow with a SkinCeuticals moisturizer and sunscreen.

http://www.treatment-skincare.com/Skinceuticals/Phloretin-CF/Usage.html


I have been using several vitamin C serums and other active serums from various brands throughout the years, and the directions for use rarely say anything about wait times. It's only mentioned some places that one should wait "a few minutes" until the serum has penetrated before applying moisturizer.

Also, I cannot recall that wait times before and after applying skin care products have been emphasized in any of the articles, blogs or excerpts from books I have read about skin care.

I must admit that I myself have been waiting, applying products, waiting again etc, but now I am wondering what I am waiting for...

It would be much appreciated if any members here will post links about skin care products and wait times from reliable sources. If such information does not exist, I think one should just follow the instructions on the products' packages.

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Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:14 am      Reply with quote
fat_swan wrote:
Thank you Tangal!!!!!

I came across this thread through the vitamin C DIY thread, and while I realize this thread is rather old, I have a question that nobody's been able to answer and I wonder if anyone over here can please help..?

Tangal wrote about how pH is irrelevant when using retinoids (vit A) or vit c as an antioxitant as opposed to as a skin treatment. My question is, what's the difference?

TIA! TIA! TIA!


FatSwan - Here is what Tangal wrote early on:
Quote:
Since Vitamin C absorbs faster into the skin, you can generally have a shorter wait of about 10 to 15 minutes. Because of its fast absorption, it is not generally used as an exfoliate.(Assuming you want to use it as a treatment activity, not simply for its anti-oxidant effects)
To work as an anti-oxidant, it is not pH dependant.

What this means is that Vit C (as l-ascorbic) and Retin A are acids (AHA) and can be exfoliating in nature if used at the right pH. If you want to use them simply for their antioxidant properties however, you can disregard the pH issues. Does that help at all?

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Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:05 am      Reply with quote
Yes, thank you timecat!! It's because I considered vit c as an exfoliant, that's where I got confused. Thank you! Very Happy
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Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:28 am      Reply with quote
Hi just one last question-- does this mean when using vit C as an antioxidant and NOT an exfoliant, there is no need to wait before applying the next layer of skin care products? Thanks!
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:32 pm      Reply with quote
Septembergirl wrote:
I think there is one huge problem with this whole thread. The information about wait times is not based on any scientific articles or reliable sources ....

I am currently using a 10 % vitamin C serum from SkinCeuticals, and the instructions on Melbourne Dermatology's website say nothing about wait times:

Quote:
SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF. Instructions for use: Once in the morning after cleansing, apply 4-5 drops to a dry face, neck and chest. Follow with a SkinCeuticals moisturizer and sunscreen.

http://www.treatment-skincare.com/Skinceuticals/Phloretin-CF/Usage.html



It would be much appreciated if any members here will post links about skin care products and wait times from reliable sources. If such information does not exist, I think one should just follow the instructions on the products' packages.


This discussion is somewhat dated, but because many members follow the advice given in this thread regarding wait times for Vitamin C serums, I thought I would let you all know what I was able to find on the topic.

The Skinceuticals website has this to say regarding instructions:

AM REGIMEN

Step 1: Cleanse & Tone
Use a SkinCeuticals cleanser and toner as directed by your skincare professional or by following the directions on the package.

Step 2: Antioxidant Treatment
Apply a thin layer of a SkinCeuticals antioxidant serum to the entire face, neck, and chest, avoiding eye area. Allow 3-5 minutes before applying additional products.

Step 3: Hydrate, Lighten or Calm
Apply 2-3 drops of SkinCeuticals Hydrating B5 Gel, Phyto+, or Phyto Corrective Gel to the entire face, neck, and chest, avoiding eye area.

Step 4: Moisturize
Use a SkinCeuticals moisturizer as directed by your skincare professional or following the directions on the package.

Step 5: Sun Protection
Use a broad-spectrum a SkinCeuticals sunscreen as directed by your skincare professional or following the directions on the package.

I believe Skinceuticals is a "reliable source" of information regarding wait times with respect to Vitamin C and other antioxidant serums. Their advice contradicts the 15-20 minute wait time suggested on this thread. HTH

http://www.skinceuticals.com/_us/_en/catalog/regimen/am-regimen.aspx

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Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:51 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
Allow 3-5 minutes before applying additional products.



Yes, when I was using Nu Derm, this was what my nurse told me as well, to wait 3 minutes after applying SC C, E, F and then go on with the other products. There has never been a wait time for any of the Nu Derm products, meaning once applied and rubbed in well, you move on to the next product with no wait time in between.
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:12 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Lacy53 wrote:
Allow 3-5 minutes before applying additional products.



Yes, when I was using Nu Derm, this was what my nurse told me as well, to wait 3 minutes after applying SC C, E, F and then go on with the other products. There has never been a wait time for any of the Nu Derm products, meaning once applied and rubbed in well, you move on to the next product with no wait time in between.


The instructions with almost all serums I have purchased including Vitamin C will say wait until fully absorbed, this would seem to fit into the time frame recommended above!

The only thing other than this is if using a highly alkaline cleanser (very harsh) you need to wait for your skin th return to it's natural ph BEFORE applying Vitamin C or any acidic product as it will burn the skin! It is best to use a ph balanced cleanser on your skin anyway as highly alkaline cleansers are quite stripping!

HTH
DM

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Lei
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Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:22 am      Reply with quote
I also learned from this thread and a lot of things. Thank you for the unselfish sharing Exclamation
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Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:37 am      Reply with quote
Interesting thread. So, the best way to stabilize your acid mantle is to use a cleanser with a PH of 5.5?

Ling Skin care have a PH balanced cleanser. How do I find out the actual PH of it?

These are the ingredients:

AQUA, PROPYLENE GLYCOL, TEA-COCOYL GLUTAMATE, CETYL ALCOHOL, STEARIC ACID, STEARYL ALCOHOL, TRIETHANOLAMINE, METHYLPARABEN, PROPYLPARABEN, IMIDAZOLIDINYL UREA, ROSE WATER CONCENTRATE, TETRASODIUM EDTA.

Formulated to compliment the natural chemistry of the skin, this cleanser thoroughly cleanses and gently removes debris on the surface of the skin while protecting its vital, natural balance. Calming Rose Water, soothing Stearic Acid and coconut-derived Tea-Cocyl Glutamate combines for a sulfate-free cleanser leaving skin soft and supple, never tight or dry.

TIA Very Happy

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Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:02 am      Reply with quote
LondonJamie,

Here is a breakdown of some PH found in nature including skin at 5.5 so a cleanser at that ph is balanced to the skin!


Living systems

pH in living systems[22]
Compartment pH
Gastric acid 0.7
Lysosomes 4.5
Granules of chromaffin cells 5.5
Human skin 5.5
Urine 6.0
Neutral H2O at 37 °C 6.81
Cytosol 7.2
Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) 7.3
Blood 7.34–7.45
Mitochondrial matrix 7.5

HTH
DM




LondonJamie wrote:
Interesting thread. So, the best way to stabilize your acid mantle is to use a cleanser with a PH of 5.5?

Ling Skin care have a PH balanced cleanser. How do I find out the actual PH of it?

These are the ingredients:

AQUA, PROPYLENE GLYCOL, TEA-COCOYL GLUTAMATE, CETYL ALCOHOL, STEARIC ACID, STEARYL ALCOHOL, TRIETHANOLAMINE, METHYLPARABEN, PROPYLPARABEN, IMIDAZOLIDINYL UREA, ROSE WATER CONCENTRATE, TETRASODIUM EDTA.

Formulated to compliment the natural chemistry of the skin, this cleanser thoroughly cleanses and gently removes debris on the surface of the skin while protecting its vital, natural balance. Calming Rose Water, soothing Stearic Acid and coconut-derived Tea-Cocyl Glutamate combines for a sulfate-free cleanser leaving skin soft and supple, never tight or dry.

TIA Very Happy

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Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:19 pm      Reply with quote
longdonjamie - to find the pH of a product, either contact the mfg'r of it or use a pH testing strip. You can buy these on line. Buy strips that can test the whole value of pH from 0-10 and you need to test a liquid product (ie - it won't work on bar soap)

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Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:36 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
longdonjamie - to find the pH of a product, either contact the mfg'r of it or use a pH testing strip. You can buy these on line. Buy strips that can test the whole value of pH from 0-10 and you need to test a liquid product (ie - it won't work on bar soap)


I did a bit of research yesterday and it appears that any cleanser that is ph balanced is between 4.5-5.5 and won't interfere with the acid mantle of the skin or cause issues with what you apply after!
Bar soaps however are at lowest 7 and usually 9-9+ highly alkaline! Smile

HTH
DM

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Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:41 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
foxe wrote:
longdonjamie - to find the pH of a product, either contact the mfg'r of it or use a pH testing strip. You can buy these on line. Buy strips that can test the whole value of pH from 0-10 and you need to test a liquid product (ie - it won't work on bar soap)


I did a bit of research yesterday and it appears that any cleanser that is ph balanced is between 4.5-5.5 and won't interfere with the acid mantle of the skin or cause issues with what you apply after!
Bar soaps however are at lowest 7 and usually 9-9+ highly alkaline! Smile

HTH
DM


Thanks so much Darkmoon! I can start using a proper cleanser again Smile

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Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:47 am      Reply with quote
You are welcome LondonJamie! I just love getting at the facts! Glad it helped! Smile

DM


LondonJamie wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
foxe wrote:
longdonjamie - to find the pH of a product, either contact the mfg'r of it or use a pH testing strip. You can buy these on line. Buy strips that can test the whole value of pH from 0-10 and you need to test a liquid product (ie - it won't work on bar soap)


I did a bit of research yesterday and it appears that any cleanser that is ph balanced is between 4.5-5.5 and won't interfere with the acid mantle of the skin or cause issues with what you apply after!
Bar soaps however are at lowest 7 and usually 9-9+ highly alkaline! Smile

HTH
DM


Thanks so much Darkmoon! I can start using a proper cleanser again Smile

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Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:05 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
foxe wrote:
longdonjamie - to find the pH of a product, either contact the mfg'r of it or use a pH testing strip. You can buy these on line. Buy strips that can test the whole value of pH from 0-10 and you need to test a liquid product (ie - it won't work on bar soap)


I did a bit of research yesterday and it appears that any cleanser that is ph balanced is between 4.5-5.5 and won't interfere with the acid mantle of the skin or cause issues with what you apply after!
Bar soaps however are at lowest 7 and usually 9-9+ highly alkaline! Smile

HTH
DM


Thanks!!! Sophyto's deep clean cleanser (pH 5) is on my list to order. But I was wondering the other day and didn't know where to post it - If your vitamin C serum is pH 3.0 and you are using a glycolic acid cleanser prior witha pH of 3.5 or so, does the wait time still apply to waiting in between cleanser and serum? Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread somewhere.
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:51 pm      Reply with quote
oranges,

You are using 2 products with a very close ph so
I don't believe you would have a problem, what causes the big issue are highly alkaline cleansers and following with an acid. I would err on the side of caution and dry your face and give yourself that 3 minute wait just to be safe, but it is really more a question of a cleanser being alkaline that causes problems.

HTH
DM

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:51 pm      Reply with quote
oranges - you want your cleanser's pH to be close to your own skin's pH so that you don't have to wait for your skin to return to a pH of 4.5-5.5. That takes about 20 minutes to happen. Using a cleanser with a higher pH would make your skins pH too high. So - using a clenaser w/ a pH of 5 would keep your skin at the right pH and then you wouldn't have to wait after cleansing to use a lower pH.

Hope that makes sense.

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:22 am      Reply with quote
Here's a summary of all that I know about pH and skin and somebody please let me know if I am off-base:

- pH is important when using certain acid based serums like Vitamin C, because a certain pH level is required in order for the product to penetrate the skin properly (believe it needs a pH under 3)

- If you use a product with a higher pH too soon after apply the serum, you could make the serum less effective since it "mixes" with the higher pH product.

- with topical products used to protect or repair the outer layer of the skin, ideally you want a product with a pH close to that of your own skin.

Again, this is the summary, please edit/add/delete as appropriate to make this correct.

Thanks, BF
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:37 am      Reply with quote
BF,

You are spot on!
If using a LAA based serum it is only effective at a ph of 3 or so.

The highly alkaline cleansers followed by a low ph serum has had many running to wash the serum as the ph mix is extreemly irritating to the skin.

I agree that a ph balanced cleanser is the best choice to use to avoid the constant stripping of the skin and to avoid reactions with lower ph products. That's what I have gathered from researching, if I am incorrect on any of the above please correct, I know you do extensive research and this is your area of training!

TIA
DM Smile



Barefootgirl wrote:
Here's a summary of all that I know about pH and skin and somebody please let me know if I am off-base:

- pH is important when using certain acid based serums like Vitamin C, because a certain pH level is required in order for the product to penetrate the skin properly (believe it needs a pH under 3)

- If you use a product with a higher pH too soon after apply the serum, you could make the serum less effective since it "mixes" with the higher pH product.

- with topical products used to protect or repair the outer layer of the skin, ideally you want a product with a pH close to that of your own skin.

Again, this is the summary, please edit/add/delete as appropriate to make this correct.

Thanks, BF

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Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:24 pm      Reply with quote
Tangal wrote:
Some Info on pH and wait times

The initials pH stand for “Power of Hydrogen” or "Potential of Hydrogen”. Both terms are correct. This is a measure of the activity of hydrogen or hydrogen ion content in a solution.
The pH scale measures how acidic or alkaline a product is, compared to pure distilled water. (which is pH 7.0)
......


This is fabulous, thank you!
I have an obvious, so probably stupid, question. If the product doesn't display the pH, how do I know what it is? I use Pangea Organics. Thanks again.
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Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:10 am      Reply with quote
SoCalGal,

Ph test strips can be purchased if you really need to check! Smile

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Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:59 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
SoCalGal,

Ph test strips can be purchased if you really need to check! Smile


Hi Dark Moon, long time, no post (my bad, been sick).

Thanks, but I guess I meant = how do we know what to use if pH is so important? I don't think I've ever seen the pH of a beauty product displayed or even mentioned for that matter,

Am I destroying my acid mantle every time I apply an exotic oil? or exfoliate? I use only all-natural products. Is that any kind of protection?

I appreciate that this is a difficult subject, so my questions may seem facetitous, but I can't reconcile the issue of pH and the notion that no one in the industry seems to regard it.

I guess I need to read this entire thread. The knowledge avaiable here is incredible.

Thanks for listening.
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Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:05 am      Reply with quote
SoCalGal wrote:

.... but I can't reconcile the issue of pH and the notion that no one in the industry seems to regard it.



I have often wondered the same thing. I find it incomprehensible that, say, anti-acne cleansers are produced at ridiculously high pH levels, destroying skin's acid mantle with every use ... when the whole point of the acid mantle is to control skin microbes (which one might imagine would be a desired effect of any anti-acne product). Destroying the acid mantle creates an environment where microbes flourish, so why would an anti-acne cleanser do that? Or any other cleanser for that matter? I just don't get it...

I've even heard the theory touted that excessive hand washing with "normal" high pH type hand cleansers can change hand skin pH level towards alkaline, thereby leaving the skin (if broken) actually more exposed to infection as the acid mantle is not there to protect it... Definitely not saying that's a fact, just something I read somewhere, but something to think about hmm
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Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:04 am      Reply with quote
I was just discussing the pH issue with another woman. The conversation came about because in the newest New Beauty there is an article and a recommended "routine" for night applying a retinol product first, and then a serum on top of it. I questioned this, as I always have read lightest to heaviest being the correct order. Anyway, the woman I spoke with thought the bigger issue was pH and active ingredient interaction. This made me think about how often I poo-poo using an entire range of products from the same place, but it actually may be a good thing (and not just a marketing ploy) as the products are all made to work together. Whereas when we add product on top of product, we have no way of knowing what "works" together and what is potentially inactivating another product, etc. Just something I have been giving thought to.
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