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Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:46 am  |
I was looking over the neova products when I noticed they had a new one-Advanced perfecting Elixir. But, this one has AHK as opposed to GHK copper. Anyone know what the difference is  |
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:03 am |
I replyed to you pm. But will post here for others also.
Personally I prefer the Second generation coppers from Skin Biology which are stronger and more effective then either of the coppers you mentioned. Also much cheaper!
GHK coppers were originally researched and studied by the founder of Skin Biology Dr Loren Pickart, who left Procyte, and started Skin Biology. At which point he created the stronger and more staple second generation copper line only carried by Skin Biology. (like the GHK, just more potent)
The GHK and AHK are milder versions. Which is fine. But may or may not produce the results you need, depending on your needs.
The GHK and AHK coppers are the first generation Copper peptides. They cannot be layered over a BHA or AHA product as they are less stable, so should be used in a different session or after rinsing skin.
I don’t know the exact chemical changes from GHK to AHK, but both are first generation with the same stability issues. The AHK is the stronger of the two. Both are milder then Second generation coppers.
1st Gen coppers also don’t adhere to the skin as well so can be less effective.
Skin Biology’s comments on differences, between first and second generation.
http://www.skinbiology.com/aboutunscientificpostscripts.html
Though I know you asked about the other brand -
Skin Biology products are more effective and cheaper. You can pick up sample sizes fromwww.skinbiology.com in their “Sample Kits”
http://www.skinbio.com/orderstarterkits.html
or smaller 1 oz bottles of the Copper Serum, (CP Serum) the entry level product fromwww.dianayvonne.com orwww.skinbiology.com for $21. Also on Ebay.
You can easily dilute the serum to a very weak product when first using, and increase copper ratio as skin adjust.
Personally I would not spend so much on a first generation product that is less effective, then the cheaper second generation one.
For those who cannot tolerate second Gen coppers, there are many other brands that carry the first Gen line, MUCH more cheaply. The link here lists the brands at the vary bottom of the page.
http://www.skinbiology.com/aboutunscientificpostscripts.html |
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:25 am |
| ProCyte makes the Neova product, which you mentioned on the PM. (Incase that was not clear from my post) |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:52 am |
| marina wrote: |
| I was looking over the neova products when I noticed they had a new one-Advanced perfecting Elixir. But, this one has AHK as opposed to GHK copper. Anyone know what the difference is |
Hi Marina - I don't know either. I posted a Q about this a while back and no-one replied. Maybe I'll ask smartskincare.com they usually come back with something on little chemical questions.
(BTW Tangal - I believe Marina knows all this - she's no newbie) |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:55 am |
sorry, just was trying to answer based on my perception of the question, which she also PMed to me. Not aware that it was redundant......
And figureing others might also have a simular question, posted the answer for them to read also. |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:15 am |
Actually Molly, when it comes to copper products, I am definitely a newbie- they always scared me for some reason-that's why I was looking for a gentler version to start with & pm'd Tangal. At my age I can't afford to putz around with the 'uglies'; I need the 'beauties' right away.  |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:28 am |
| Sorry Tangal/Marina, my mistake - only I remember Marina PMing me with mistakes in the CP FAQ so I assumed she was quite knowledgable. |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:53 am |
While I'm here...
I often wonder about the uglies and the original CPs. I mean it may be that they also have the potential to cause this and we just don't know. Most importantly because these companies don't put as high a level of CPs in their products as used in the original research and secondly because they aren't as popular on the forums and don't have a forum of their own like Skinbio so people have no place to complain to.
But I do think the main reason is, like with a lot of actives, big companies are terrified of getting any negative results so they don't make their products potent enough to do either damage nor good. One of the reasons so many high street brands based on researched actives are such a let down.
What do you think? |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:05 am |
| Quote: |
| At my age I can't afford to putz around with the 'uglies'; I need the 'beauties' right away. |
I certainly see your point. But heres how I saw it at age 39, when I started with Copper.
I don't have "time" to wait around forever for results, or lack of results. I have some big issues, and they will take a lot of work. So I need something stronger that can make more impact quickly. I don't want to see results in 3 years. Or find out it "does not work", in 3 years. I want changes in one year. (or sooner) 
The labs studies with the great "copper" results are based on the strongest versions of the product, not the mildest. If skin only has minor issue, the weaker products may be perfect for ones needs. But for aged skin with some years on it, the big guns may be needed. Just my opinion.
Also I know many many many ppl who never had uglys at all, including myself and a few close friends. But every one of us was carefull to start with the milder products (the Copper Serum, though I also worked with the weaker Night Eyes, and the Copper creams)
Use small amounats slowly. (one to 2 drops diluted with water, once to twice a week - slowly building up use to daily or twice daily)
And then if we ever saw any irritation starting (at which point it is super mild, and on me was just limited to the more delicate eye area, some redness, or puffyness, or tenderness) then back off/slow up on application and use Emu oil and DMAE which corrects the problem almost immediately.
So I never had ugly days. I did have some days when under eyes may have been puffier then normal or a bit more lined from overuse. But as soon as I saw that, I corrected the issues, and later that day or the next everything was back to normal.
Many people have issues because they try to do to much to fast, either with the copper or the acids, or both. You just need to take it easy and slow.
Some people feel if they don't have irritation they are not getting results - that is very wrong thinking.
You can have excellent results with no visable irritation. Some irritation may occur, as with any product. But it is easy to manage if you watch your skin use common sense, and adjust treatments based on "your" needs.
Having said all that, I personally did try some of the First Generation drugstore products, Though they were fine enough products, I did not get much by way of dramatic results. And wasted another year, that I could have had some real improvement, useing a stronger product.
So that is my reasoning. The First Generation products have a following and they certainly do work. And for many seem to work very nicely. I just know for my needs, and my budget, it did not seem the best option.
And I find it super easy to do any dilution needed for the 2end gen. products for those who find they need a weaker product to work with.
But based on your personal reasoning, either of the products you mentioned should work for you. I don't think the stronger one would be "to strong" if that was the thought you had. Unless your skin is sensitive.
And if it is, you can easily adjust application to every other day, every third day etc.
Emu oil also makes a nice buffer to lessen irritation on many products, so also an option if you need it. (apply before the treament product to buffer it)
Just start slowly and you should be good. |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:12 am |
Molly, I've certainly read my share on the skincareboard about CP, I just never tried them. It just seemed with all the wait times, layering, using C's & copper 12 hours apart, I just didn't know if it was all worth it. I remember when Neova was scoffed at-just look at Dr. P's site-he rips them apart & when he runs out of facts to refute he'll start in on the Neova guy's spelling mistakes!. What piqued my interest was, back on the skincareboard, there was some talk about Dr. P introducing first generation copper in is product line.Why would he do that if second generation is far superior. Some members (diehard copperies) were actually considering or using Neova. Let's face it, Neova always seemed more cosmetically elegant anyway...I know $$$$$ overpriced. That's why the second look on my part.
You may continue to think of moi as knowledgable just not on CP. There was one person on this board (that I know of) that had a terrible reaction to CPs.This is one instance where you need to know what you're talking about before you can give people advice. |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:18 am |
| Quote: |
| What piqued my interest was, back on the skincareboard, there was some talk about Dr. P introducing first generation copper in is product line.Why would he do that if second generation is far superior. |
Me too - it got me quite suspicious and I wonder if the fact that he hasn't yet introduced this is because it will prove the critics of his 2nd gen right and maybe in the final extreme he'd have legal problems from unhappy users.
You're right, there's been one user here with serious uglies but they fixed it and considering how many use them I'm still not too worried. I should add I've never gone ugly in several years of use now. |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:19 am |
Thanks Tangal, we were posting at the same time.Assuming Cp ( serum) -the mildest one, is used pm. only, I think (look I'm also battling senior moments here)it can be used over a BHA/AHA or mandelic acid , retinol,active serum (I can't give up active serum) as long as wait times are adhered to.If there is a post somewhere about how to use CP serum (layering) let me know & I'll do a search. Thanks
Edited: Just found the info on the FAQ thread.I just need to look up wait times..  |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:24 am |
| Molly, according to your footer thingy, you use Cps in the morning. I guess C serums are out then? Glad to see you like the berry beneficial-great stuff.... |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:41 am |
Molly, I agree with “product strength” possibly being an issue. I am sure you know how many lines tout all the special super terrific wrinkle treatment ingredients in their blend, yet they are in there is such a small amount – they have no beneficial effect. But they also have no negative “side effects”
But we buy them all the time, because consumers in general look for the “buzz words” and that’s as far as it goes. The studies quoted are often on much stronger levels then the actual consumer products, and at those levels do wonders. And also have side effects. Not necessarily on everyone, but often on some. But enough that companys adjust levels to lessen those issues.
Skin Bio is a strong product, no argument there. But it is also a very effective product for many people. And many that do like it – don’t post. I know a number of people who donot post on the SB board or other boards, yet use and like them. And have used them for years. And I am sure this is true of any number of products.
But if someone has an issue – they do post. Because they usually are looking for help. So they look the only place they know, messageboards of other experienced users.
I rarely post on the Skin Bio board. Reasons are many which I will not address in this post, but Marina touched on some of them. LOL. Its pretty hard to take stuff you see there seriously many times.
And yes, there is “bad blood” between Dr P and Neova, which colors his comments in an often juvenile way. But that still does not change the fact that the products themselves do have valid differences, which can change to suitability of one over the other.
I think the First Gen products ARE effective. Dr P created them to work. And they do. But they also have limits, which the Second Gen products address. Now whether those limits are an issue to you, may decide which option you feel better with.
The reason he also had/has a first generation product, is because there are users that can’t handle, or don’t need the strength of the 2nd gen products. But love the benefits from a copper product, and want an effective one.
So for them the first gen is a better option. Which I have no issue with – IF the cost is reasonable.
But then I guess that is relative. Because if it works for you – then the cost may be very reasonable.
The layering really would apply to any number of products not just copper, for optimal results. And really its not hard. And many people disregard that info, and still get results, just maybe not as much as they could have.
If you never use an acid at all, you simply base layering on product thickness. But this is true with any treatment product – not just copper. The copper products from Skin Bio work well with all kinds of products easily. The only issue is Vit C, and that it really the only one with the 12 hour wait. But that is because Vit C has the issue, and it degrades with Copper – not the reverse. |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:37 am |
Sorry, having internet issues today, so having difficulty logging in and replying in the order asked….
You can use the copper serum AM OR PM. Or alternate nights.
But if you use C in the AM, then yes, use Copper in the PM.
(I actually often use My C in the PM though, and my acids and tend copper in the AM. Because I also use an Antioxidant liquid in the AM with enough good Antioxidants, plus the Antioxidants in my Copper – which I feel it is just as effective as the Vit C in the AM. – So there re other options also)
It can be used over any Acid or Retinol, assuming you use the correct wait times, And depending on thickness of your AHA/BHA/Retinol.
This may help on that:
Vit C, Wait Times
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18491
Acids Wait Times (and retinols)
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18360
If you use Copper Serum you would not normally apply it over a cream or lotion.
Because it may not penetrate well. You can apply it over a liquid, serum, or gel – no penetration issues then.
You could use the Copper lotion/cream over a lotion. But it does have some menthol in it, which I don’t like as it is a skin irritant. And some pore clogging thickeners. But many people do have good results with it also. Just not my preferred choice.
If you have Retinol, you wait 20 to 30 minutes before using ANY other treatment activity, copper or anything else.
If you have Retin A, it depends on the form. Retin A in a gel is fine under copper, Renova the lotion version can be applied over the thinner base copper.
But because Retin A really likes to be applied over clean skin, I personally would just alternate. Copper one PM, Retin A an alternate night. This way you get benefits of both products.
I found Retin A worked so much nicer WITH Copper, because the copper really helped on the damage the Retin A caused to the skin barrier, and was very healing to the Retin A irritation. (Emu helped also)
If you list all the products you are using/planning to use, then I can help on “layers” |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:04 am |
| marina wrote: |
| Molly, according to your footer thingy, you use Cps in the morning. I guess C serums are out then? Glad to see you like the berry beneficial-great stuff.... |
I only use CPs in the morning when I've run out of C, like now. I'd rather put them over my retinoids but mostly fall asleep before it happens 
My initial thoughts on the Very Berry are I want a big family gallon size and/or shares.
I'd still like to factor in the Gen 1 CPs and have been meaning to since the conundrum Marina mentioned above. There is a difference in what the research set out to prove - gen 1 wrinkles, gen 2 skin damage from detergents (whatever?!) and it really isn't the same thing. There's never been research in reducing/eliminating wrinkles with gen 2 and wrinkles are my preoccupation not detergent damage.
Gen 1 CPs are one of the few things proven to elimate/reduce wrinkles so I feel I should try it. The only thing stopping me is the low concentration of active, though I guess you could use 2/3 times a day, couldn't you? |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:26 am |
yes you could use more then once a day.
A 2nd gen copper does improve skin firmness and Collagen building. I have noticed that myself just in my use. My skin IS much firmer from CPs alone.
Also firmer then when I as useing Retin A. I don't really have wrinkles to comment on. I do have finelines under my eyes, which are better, but not gone. But based on how I have seen skin change and firm and scars go away. I can believe that it will help the wrinkle issue also.
I do now use DMAE also for under eye issues mainly, but saw improvement from the copper on skin sagging and firmness. I think both versions can work on the wrinkled aged skin issues myself.
From what I understand 2nd Gen does much like the First Gen products, but with better penitration essentually, and the stronger treatment levels used in the published first gen studies.
This was covered in more detail in the Book Dr P put out, I don't remember all the details right now. And of course it is "his" book, which may not count. |
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:32 am |
| Just one more point about Gen 1 which I had forgotten till Tangal mentionned it-you can't layer them over acids & retinol. That does away wit using them more than once a day. Even the person I contacted at Dermadoctor who uses the newest one,told me not to use it at the same time as retinol or acids but use it at opposite ends of the day-effectively making it a morning product. There goes the C...... |
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:49 am |
| Molly wrote: |
| marina wrote: |
| I was looking over the neova products when I noticed they had a new one-Advanced perfecting Elixir. But, this one has AHK as opposed to GHK copper. Anyone know what the difference is |
Hi Marina - I don't know either. I posted a Q about this a while back and no-one replied. Maybe I'll ask smartskincare.com they usually come back with something on little chemical questions.
(BTW Tangal - I believe Marina knows all this - she's no newbie) |
Molly,
I hope that I am not repeating something that you already know but the difference between the GHK and AHK copper peptides is that the one binds a GHK tripeptide to the copper while the other one binds an AHK tripeptide to the copper. I don't know anything about the AHK one and don't even know if there are studies on it.
On the subject of 1st generation v. 2nd generation. I too wonder if the 1st generation ones are better. Perhaps the best alternative would be the 1st gen CPs in a high enough percentage. You are absolutly right that they are the ones that have actual skin rejuvenation research behind them and as far as I know the 2nd gen ones do not. BTW I have been doing some very preliminary CP research and it seems like the GHK peptide is "special". So I don't know if the other CPs that don't have this would be as good. I really want to look into the GHK peptide a little more and see what I can find.
Do you have any clue why the 2nd gen ones are stable in acidic environments? I vaguely understand why the 1st gen ones don't play nice with acids but really have no clue what makes the 2nd gen ones so stable??
Theresa |
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:54 am |
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:17 pm |
| rainbowcheng wrote: |
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:40 pm |
| marina wrote: |
| rainbowcheng wrote: |
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:59 pm |
Hi All,
I've used the 1st and 2nd generation cp's. I loved the Neova Antioxidant Therapy, but after 4 months built a tolerance to it. I've now been using the cp serum for a little over a year.My main problems are sun damage coming to the surface (lines, sunspots, and slight droopiness around my mouth). I agree with Tangal about using the big guns. I also agree with the posters that state the 1st generation has research behind it. I guess my question is am I using the wrong one? Should I go back to the Neova? |
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:00 pm |
Hi All,
I've used the 1st and 2nd generation cp's. I loved the Neova Antioxidant Therapy, but after 4 months built a tolerance to it. I've now been using the cp serum for a little over a year.My main problems are sun damage coming to the surface (lines, sunspots, and slight droopiness around my mouth). I agree with Tangal about using the big guns. I also agree with the posters that state the 1st generation has research behind it. I guess my question is am I using the wrong one? Should I go back to the Neova? |
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:17 pm |
| TheresaL wrote: |
| I hope that I am not repeating something that you already know but the difference between the GHK and AHK copper peptides is that the one binds a GHK tripeptide to the copper while the other one binds an AHK tripeptide to the copper........ BTW I have been doing some very preliminary CP research and it seems like the GHK peptide is "special". |
Hi Theresa
I remember the GHK/AHK difference being mentioned vaguely, but in practice I have no idea what that might mean.
I'd be intrigued to hear what you mean by 'special'.
I don't know why Gen 2 are so stable in acid nor why they don't break down so quickly on the skin generally, but all in all doesn't that make it sound like such a different product to Gen 1 - there has to be some difference. To put it quite literally I don't think if you watered down Gen2 you'd end up with Gen1.
And I'm still intrigued to try Gen 1. Particularly because these studies have shown it to generate more collagen than Retin A. Well, in my experience with Skinbio CPs and I can contrast with Retin A and Retinol and Retinaldehyde use that simply isn't the case. The only time I felt I was achieving anything like that was with Supercop X2, but nothing as obvious as with Retinoids.
I might try Gen 1, use twice daily and cut out acids and retinoids for a few weeks - just to know. |
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