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Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:26 pm  |
Hi all,
I'm new here. I have to say that forums in EDS are ... wow!
Well, this is my first post.
I really love putting vitamin c on my face. Now I 'm using vitamin c product called "Product A". I saw another product that contains similar ingredients. Let's call "Product B".
Product A: Cyclomethicone, Ascorbic Acid, Octyl Hydroxystearate, Polysilicone-11, Tocopheryl Acetate, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis Oil, Bisabolol, Tocopherol.
Product B: Cyclomethicone, Ascorbic Acid , Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate, Polysilicone-11, Phytantriol, Ethoxydiglycol, Bisabolol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Tocopherol.
They both look almost the same to me but one is much more expensive than another (one is about $120 and another one is about $30).
So what do you think about these two products? Which one is better?
Thanks 
ColaDrink |
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Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:37 pm |
Hmmm....Hi there, ColaDrink. Welcome. 
I'm not a chemist but both of these serums look unusual to me because the form of vit. C I recognize, and is the highest concentration, is ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid needs a low ph formula in order to be effective. Like 3.0 or below. Since cyclomethicone is the first ingredient, and there's other oil-based ingredients, this does not look like a low-ph product. Based on what I was taught, ascorbic acid at neutral ph is not effective. So I would choose the $30 product and not the $120 product.
Have you looked at the SkinMedica Vit C complex? It also has the silicone base but it has oil-based vit C in it which is not dependent on low ph. I think the cost of that one is right in the middle of the two products you have listed.
Good luck with it.... |
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Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:38 pm |
Firstly, welcome!
Product B has two forms of ascorbic acid, Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate is supposed to be more stable than regular ascorbic acid. Do you know what % vitaminc is in each product?
Also I thought the best form of vitamin c for topical use was L-ascorbic acid, as it is the form which many scientific studies are based on, and proven to stimulate collagen production. Other forms may still have potential antioxidant properties, but not sure what the general consensus is about the efficiency of other ascorbic acid derivatives.
Personally I would not use a vitamin C product which is in a silicone base, it may prevent the C from penetrating, and in the long term would probably end up clogging my pores.
There are also many water based vitamin C products available which are also reasonably stable and very effective.
HTH |
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Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:47 pm |
| Quote: |
| Product B has two forms of ascorbic acid, Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate is supposed to be more stable than regular ascorbic acid |
Good catch. In this case, product B would be more effective in the skin than product A. |
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Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:52 pm |
L-ascorbic acid is stable in an anhydrous medium, which is what I think both products are trying to achieve.
Also, I recently posted a link to a very interesting article that talked about the increased efficacy of using a combination of L-Ascorbic Acid and Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate. It's a very interesting read. |
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Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:21 pm |
Hi PocoLoco:
Yes I have. Product B is actually SkinMedica Vit C Complex, which costs 119CAD . It seems like people quite love SkinMedica. So I'm sort of curious about the rave Thanks for the answer
Yeah ... B seems to be more effective but ... it costs 119CAD T_T
Hi miranets:
Product A contains 10% ascorbic acid (I don't know about pH). So, SkinMedica (Product B) should be more stable then?
I am interested in switching from silicone based moisturizer to l-ascorbic acid serum (like SPF, Cellex C) too. But I think that if ascorbic acid is in silicone (not water), it would be more stable. Probably I will give water-based vitmain c a try
Thank you miranets
Hi katee:
Thanks katee. I'll check it out.
By the way product A is actually The Bodyshop Vitamin C Intensive Night Treatment (30CAD) |
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Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:31 pm |
Aah. This was fun. 
I do think that ph is a factor and that product B would do more for your skin. It's true that these silicone bases are much more stable than water based, as Katee mentioned. You know there's a person on this website Candy8865 who has created a multi-source C serum and you might want to check it out. I think her website iswww.candessence.com |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:02 am |
| ColaDrink, I just love your name, I'm a diet cokeaholic Welcome to the forum. |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:57 am |
I am familiar with the SkinMedica product so let me add a few things. The SkinMedica C Complex has 10% ascorbic acid and 5% tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate. Yes the tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate is more stable than ascorbic acid but the reason why the SkinMedica is so stable despite having ascorbic acid is that it contains no water. Ascorbic acid does oxidize in the presence of oxygen but water makes it oxidize a lot quicker.
I may be wrong here but I think that since this product contains no water it has no pH. It does not have a neutral pH of 7. It simply does not have a pH. I have read how SkinMedica gets the ascorbic acid to work in this product and it has something to do with what happens on the skin when this is applied but I don't understand it well enough to explain it. Let me just say that I feel confident that they are able to make the ascrobic acid work properly.
While ascrobic acid does have the most science behind it to show collagen production there are some limited studies which show that other forms of vitamin C particularly tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate might also work to help with collagen production. It is an area where more research is needed but I have seen enough to make me say that using tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate is worth it especially since my skin cannot tolertate too high a percentage of ascorbic acid.
As for the silicone base preventing the vitamin C from penetrating I don't think this is true. I had asked John Hill about the silicones in this product and they are mostly volatile so they evaporate. I have been doing some research on silcones bases and vitamin c and all I can say is that based on what I have read I am really impressed with the SkinMedica formula. I don't know enought about silicones to say which ones are more likely to cause clogged pores but from personal experience I can say that my pores look cleaner since I have been using this product. I am not saying that the SkinMedica is clearing my pores but it is certainly not clogging them!
Personally I would not consider swithching to the BodyShop product. The SkinMedica has the added benefit of 5% tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate. And the BodyShop one has an essential oil added-I imagine they need to keep up their image as being "natural" but having sensitive skin I try not to use too many essential oils particularly during the day since many of these oils are photisensitizing.
In short, I really like the SkinMedica and am very impressed with it. I don't see any reason at this point in time why I would go back to using water based C serums. |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:53 am |
| Theresa, I'm not sure if it's possible for a product to not have a ph. I've never heard of this before. I wish a chemist could resolve this question for us! |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:24 pm |
nomoreneckpain:
So am I It's the thing I can't live without ~>_<~ But becareful! Don't drink it too much. I can harm your pretty skin
TheresaL:
I myself used this Bodyshop silicone-based vitamin C (been on and off for 6 tubes ). I didn't have any breakout neither. According to Zerozits 's website, Cyclomethicone is not comedogenic. I don't know if this is true (?).
Though I loved the results but my finger nails turned orange >_<. And I want to try some new things too. Thinking of switching to SkinMedia but it's way to expensive for me. I will definitely learn more about Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate Thanks
PocoLoco:
I really have no idea about the pH but when I put on this Bodyshop seilicone based product on my (wet) face. I really feel quite strong tingling sensation. And I guess it should have a very low pH. It's just my guess |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:37 pm |
| PocoLoco wrote: |
| Theresa, I'm not sure if it's possible for a product to not have a ph. I've never heard of this before. I wish a chemist could resolve this question for us! |
I had never heard this until recently when I saw it mentioned on the forum. Unfortunatly I can't recall what the thread was and can't find it. It was very interesting because it was either quoting an outside source or had a link to an outside source so it had some backing to support the claim. I too wish someone would tell us for sure if it is possible for something to have no pH! |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:26 pm |
| TheresaL wrote: |
| PocoLoco wrote: |
| Theresa, I'm not sure if it's possible for a product to not have a ph. I've never heard of this before. I wish a chemist could resolve this question for us! |
I had never heard this until recently when I saw it mentioned on the forum. Unfortunatly I can't recall what the thread was and can't find it. It was very interesting because it was either quoting an outside source or had a link to an outside source so it had some backing to support the claim. I too wish someone would tell us for sure if it is possible for something to have no pH! |
Girls, it's off thread a bit i know, but i like this pH discussion. pH is somehow the concentration of H(+) ions in a solution, and so every solution where H(+) ions are present should have a measurable pH - IMO. I.e. a common soap has a pH of 9.0-10.0 - is a soap an aqueous solution ? I'll try to get some indicator paper tomorrow and measure my Skinmedica VitC (if possible). |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:39 pm |
lin23 bar soap would IMO not be aqueous but liquid soap would. So if bar soap has a pH then maybe I am wrong. I really wish I could find the post I mentioned!
I hope that you can test the SkinMedica. I would be very interested to see if it has a pH and if it does then I would like to know what the pH is. Even if it has a low pH I still plan on using the product since it is working well for me............. |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:00 pm |
I thought I would add some quotes that might be of interest...
I got the following from Tangal's post on pH and wait times:
"The initials pH stand for “Power of Hydrogen” or "Potential of Hydrogen”. Both terms are correct. This is a measure of the activity of hydrogen or hydrogen ion content in a solution.
The pH scale measures how acidic or alkaline a product is, compared to pure distilled water. (which is pH 7.0)
Only wet substances have a measurable pH. The skins pH is actually the pH on the skins surface from the moisture within the skin, and the "acid mantle" which is part of the protective "barrier" on its surface. Hair for example has no pH."
This is from another thread and may have been what I was thinking of before although looking at it again it doesn't say the only substances with water have a pH:
"What does pH mean?
“pH ” is an acronym or abbreviation for the potential Hydrogen of a liquid. It is the degree of acidity or alkalinity in a substance and is measured on a scale from 0, (strongly acidic) to 14 (strongly alkaline). Most everything in your body that is moist has a pH including skin, hair, and water. Water has a pH of 7 and the pH of skin ranges from 4 to 5.6."
The above quote BTW was taken from the pH Advantage website.
And finally the following is taken from the smartskincare website:
"Furthermore, anhydrous vitamin C tends to be less irritating than regular ascorbic acid products because the irritation is caused mainly by hydrogen ions generated by acid dissociating in water."
Here is a link: http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/anhydrous_vitc_combo.html (BTW this link actually discusses anhydrous C serums and is interesting reading for those interested)
I am not sure what to make of all of this. Tangal uses the terms measurable and wet substances. Does she mean that something that is not wet has a pH but we can't measure it? Then she goes on to say that hair has no pH.
pH advantage uses the term liquid not wet and then goes on to say that everything in the body that is moist has a pH- including hair!
The smartskincare quote makes claims about hydrogen ions being the problem and that they need water to do their stuff but doesn't really say that you need water to have a pH.
I guess we can ask what makes something wet or moist. I would assume water but there may very well be other things too. Maybe splitting hairs over definitions but I think it matters......... |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:42 pm |
Hmmmm. The plot thickens.
I know that to test the ph of a bar soap you are supposed to get it wet and lathery on the outside, then put your ph measuring device into the wet lather to test the ph.
I know that DMAE bitartrate is acidic and amine is alkaline (this is neither here nor there).
Where is John C Hill when you need him? Maybe there needs to be something to potentiate hydrogen in order to create ph. Alchohol and things like salicylic (and other acids) have a ph but no water in them. I wonder about oils, because they are liquid but are not acidic or alkaline. |
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:59 pm |
I found this:
| Quote: |
| pH is a measure of the activity of hydrogen ions (H+) in a solution and, therefore, its acidity or alkalinity. In aqueous systems, the hydrogen ion activity is dictated by the dissociation constant of water (Kw) = 1.011 × 10−14 at 25 °C) and interactions with other ions in solution. Due to this dissociation constant a neutral solution (hydrogen ion activity equals hydroxide ion activity) has a pH of approximately 7. Aqueous solutions with pH values lower than 7 are considered acidic, while pH values higher than 7 are considered alkaline...In nonaqueous solutions or non-STP conditions, the pH of neutrality may not even be close to 7. Instead it is related to the dissociation constant for the specific solvent used. (Note also that pure water, when exposed to the atmosphere, will take in carbon dioxide, some of which reacts with water to form carbonic acid and H+, thereby lowering the pH to about 5.7.) |
I have some of that silicone gel at home that people use as a makeup primer. That would be similar to the SkinMedica C complex in the sense that it's a non-acquous solution. I'll try testing its ph at home tonight with my litmus paper. I'll let you know what I find out. |
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:44 am |
Just a tiny note before measuring anything : whatever the pH of Skinmedica (if there is any) i'll definitely continue using it. i like it very much, and wouldn't want to miss it from my daily routine.
And now up to the pharmacy to buy indicator paper - see you later ! |
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:10 am |
| TheresaL wrote: |
I may be wrong here but I think that since this product contains no water it has no pH. It does not have a neutral pH of 7. It simply does not have a pH. |
Well, it is starting to look like I was wrong about needing water to have a pH!!
The following from PocoLoco's quote are interesting, "In nonaqueous solutions or non-STP conditions, the pH of neutrality may not even be close to 7. Instead it is related to the dissociation constant for the specific solvent used." and " pH is a measure of the activity of hydrogen ions (H+) in a solution."
It sounds like you need a solution to have a pH. So would dry ascorbic acid crystals have a pH? Intuitively it seems like no and it makes sense that once you add the crystals to something (say water) then the mixture has a pH. So I think that PocoLoco is on to something when she said that you might need something to potentiate the hydrogen ions.
The part about nonaqueous would of course imply no water but it sounds like you need some type of solvent. I wonder what would classify as a solvent. Alcohol is a solvent and it would be interesting to see what measurment you get for the pH of ascorbic acid in alcohol as opposed to water. (As a side note I wonder if pH strips are geared towards measuring pH of solutions containing water and I wonder if you would get an accurate pH if there was no water but another solvent.) How about oil? It is used as a solvent but does it have a pH? And then what about silicone bases?
I may have been wrong in what I originally said about needing water to have a pH but I am really glad I said it because the discussion that followed has been very interesting and I think we will all learn something. 
PocoLoco and lin23; I am anxiously waiting to hear what results you get with the pH strips!! |
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:22 am |
Everything has a pH. pH is just a measure of the amount of free hydrogen ions (H+) present in aqueous solution. Pure HCl has a pH of 0. This means that in aqueous solution, 100% of the HCl will be ionized, ie. H+ and Cl-, or to be more correct, given that is in water, as H3O+ and OH- (usu the Cl- is neglected). Mathematically, pH is the expression of the H+ molar concentration as the negative logarithm. so a pH of 0 means there are 10^0 (1) moles of H+ in a 1 molar solution; a pH of 2, is equivalent to a 10^-2 molar amount of H+ present in a 1 Molar solution. All this means is that an acidic compoud (pH<7) will have a strong tendency to dissociate into H+ ions and its respective anion (negative ion). So a pH of 2 would be like saying that 80% of the original compound (HX) will be in form of H+ and X-, and 20% will "remain" as HX (it's actually in equilibrium that way).
Acids are compounds that have a strong tendency to give up their Hydrogen ions, and this is because they are able to stabilize their resulting negative charge.
I really hope I haven't confused anyone.
-joanne |
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:08 pm |
I forgot to do that test last night!  I will try to remember tonight.
I have ascorbic acid crystals too, so I could try dissolving the same amount in some water and in alcohol and measuring the ph of the resulting solutions. And from what I read, it sounds like oil is also a solvent (for some things), so in theory an oil-based solution would be a non-acqueous solution that may have a measurable ph. |
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:30 pm |
| Ladies, my full range indicator (0,5-13,0) didn't change the colour with Skinmedica VitC. When i make a solution of it with destilled water i get a value betw. 2,5-3,0 (approx.) - but for me that's two different things. |
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:11 pm |
lin23-I also agree that it is two different things!
I am not too familiar with pH test strips. Do they start out white and then change color so that even a neutral pH of 7.0 would show a color change or do they start out in a color that would correspond to a neutral pH and then change color if the solution being tested is not neutral? If the later then it could be remotely possible that the pH of the SkinMedica w/o the distilled water added is neutral.
I am curious to know how much distilled water you used. The exact quantity is not necessary but I just want to get an idea of the amount. |
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:43 pm |
There's a discussion on SkinActives.com about the anhydrous vit C gel. It seems germaine to some of our questions.
First someone posted the same article that's in this thread, about the results of the study using ascrobic acid and the oil-based C in an anhydrous silicone gel. "Hannah" posted a question, something like 'why bother doing such a study?' and someone made this response:
| Quote: |
| The purpose of the study was to keep very fine ascorbic acid anhydrous and undissolved until resting on the skin and also to take advantage of the additional collagen enhancing properties of the oil based C derivative. This is the reason for the silicone base. The main problem sought to be avoided is degradation of ascorbic acid which begins as soon as it hits water. The article underlying the interpretational article refered to suggests using Monistat Intimate Care Chafing Relief Powder Gel as the base which works perfectly as long as I grind the ascorbic acid up very fine. Otherwise it is gritty and uncomfortable and won't absorb as well. The ascorbic acid is supposed to be 10% so as to maintain a ph below 3.5 otherwise it will fail to absorb. (emphasis mine) The MAP (magnesium abscorbyl phosphate)...is probably a better choice than tetrahexyldecyl abscorbate and far better than the abscorbyl palmitate that were recommended in the articles respectively. They were not available when the articles were written. |
Lin, did you say you measured the Skinmedica C complex and it did not provide a ph reading? Now I'm dying to mix up my own concoction of monistad gel, ascorbic acid at 10%, a little oil and some MAP (to dissolve the MAP but maintain the water-free solution). |
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:02 pm |
| TheresaL wrote: |
lin23-I also agree that it is two different things!
I am not too familiar with pH test strips. Do they start out white and then change color so that even a neutral pH of 7.0 would show a color change or do they start out in a color that would correspond to a neutral pH and then change color if the solution being tested is not neutral? If the later then it could be remotely possible that the pH of the SkinMedica w/o the distilled water added is neutral.
I am curious to know how much distilled water you used. The exact quantity is not necessary but I just want to get an idea of the amount. |
Dear Theresa, I got this full range indicator from a chemical laboratory - those are paper stripes of 3 different colour :
bluish for the lower values
yellow for the middle range
orange for the higher values
I have a comparison color scale which i can compare the colour change on the stripe after the contact with the solution.
First i smeared the Skinmed. gel on all 3 stripes - WITH ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGE IN COLOUR !
Then i put two drops of Skinmed. into appr. 2 teaspoons of dest. water. Of course i didn't get a homogenic solution because Skinmed. is not 100% water-soluable. Since i think that with putting Skinmed. into alcohol or water we change it's original character it's not relevant for me if those solutions have measurable pH.
There are of course another and more precise equipments to measure pH but i'm afraid they're to be find in labs only, specialized for such issues.
(Now i'm running amok and measuring the pH of everything in our household. Anyway, PSF O˛ and also Valmont Regenetic are around 6,5. You see, Valmont is a cream with lots of water in it, a sort of aqueous solution obviously, with an easily measurable pH. Another product what didn't show any colour change on the indicators : EveLom's cleansing pomade...) |
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