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Need DIY Recipe:Ascorbyl Palmitate & Retinyl Palmitate S
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare
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Monica34
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:13 pm      Reply with quote
I want to start using palmitate forms of Vit A and C and would love to make my own if possible.

Or what products contain the palmitate forms only besides the 302 line by Dr.Huber?

Thanks Smile
nyonyakay
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:30 pm      Reply with quote
Monica34, these two derivatives are soluble in a carrier oil, or a cream/lotion only.

Were you after a lipid serum recipe, or a cream/lotion one?
Monica34
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:35 pm      Reply with quote
I would love to use cetaphil lotion as a carrier if this is a possibility or makes sense.

If not, I prefer a light carrier.

Im not sure about the retinyl acetate or palmitate anymore - I read in the meantime, that stability is a problem with retinyl esters. Any suggestion? I hope there is a solution other than tretinoin.

Maybe I need to buy a ready made product for the retinyl ester and only make the ascorbyl ester serum myself?

Thank you Smile
nyonyakay
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:45 pm      Reply with quote
Both of them will mix just fine in Cetaphil lotion.

Retinyl palmitate is an oil and will just blend right in, I started with 2% concentration and have now built up to 10%. It is sensitive to heat and light and oxidizes easily. You should store the raw material in the deepest, darkest recesses of your refrigerator (but don't freeze).

Ascorbyl palmitate is a very light fluffy powder (don't make the mistake of mixing this near an open window like I did) which may clump a bit unless you use a little electric mixer or blender. No matter if it clumps, those little clumps seem to melt into the skin. It just needs to be capped tightly and will keep well enough in your kitchen pantry. 5% concentration for this is probably a decent amount because if you don't use a mixer/blender it will clump a fair bit.

To achieve those percentage concentrations, I recommend you get a cheap digital scale like one of these: http://stores.ebay.com.au/BELLOSPORT/DIGITAL-POCKET-SCALES.html

The mixing tools I use are listed here: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=20956

One more thing, because retinyl palmitate is unstable, if you mix up say a 2oz to 4oz batch of cream, just take out enough for 1 week's use at a time, and store the main amount in the fridge.

The reason many people complain commercial vitamin A creams don't seem to work is that it's activity just gets oxidised away early in the piece.
Monica34
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:03 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks a lot Smile

Im confident making the Vit C, but Im concerned about the stability issues with the Vit A, because I plan to use it only very sparingly once a week, maybe twice. This is after reading Mollys post and the link to Dr.Hubers website who advises against using any retinoid more than 1-2 x weekly. I am currently just off Retin A for the second day which I used daily and irritated me quite a bit.

Now I wonder if maybe I should just stick with it but only use it once a week. I would like to get away from any acidic topicals. But maybe if its the only one used this little it might be ok.

Im afraid of the side effects like skin thinning, discoloration and capillary damage from using tretinoin too much. I dont know if it makes a difference besides the initial irritation upon application of tretinoin in that regard which form of Vit A is being used. Are the problems due to too frequent application or also due to the scidity?

Its confusing.
nyonyakay
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:09 pm      Reply with quote
I experienced irritation in building up to the 10% retinyl palmitate, but I was able to mitigate this by adding 1% yeast beta glucan in to the mixture.

Beta glucan is a wonderful anti-inflammatory that seems to make my skin more resilient and less sensitive over time. I got mine from here: http://www.bulkactives.com/betaglucan.htm

The topic of beta glucans has been debated extensively in these two threads:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=19633
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=19426
nyonyakay
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:18 pm      Reply with quote
Monica34 wrote:
Im afraid of the side effects like skin thinning, discoloration and capillary damage from using tretinoin too much. I dont know if it makes a difference besides the initial irritation upon application of tretinoin in that regard which form of Vit A is being used. Are the problems due to too frequent application or also due to the scidity?

Its confusing.


You can mitigate:
- thinning by ensuring you "feed" your skin with nutrients - I used a Seakelp Bioferment "broth"
- discolouration: use Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid) at at least 10% concentrations to even out and brighten skin tones and can also promote skin thickening
- capillary damage: use grapeseed proanthocyanidins and/or horse chestnut.

To promote collagen synthesis and avert thinning skin, a list of actives was put up on this thread: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=19230&highlight=hannah+sivak
Monica34
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:31 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks for the tips Smile

I am already using grapeseed oil which I blend in with my cetaphil lotion. Thats why I use the lotion, so I can add some healing oils.

Today, I also ordered avocado oil which is supposed to be very soothing and moisturizing. Avocado plays a big role in Dr.Hubers formulas.

I copied some info for you which made me think about overusing actives. its why I dont want to use the Vit A more than 1-2 weekly and also not overdo the Vit C:

http://www.302skincare.com/pro_discussion_topics.html

Dose Scheduling


The skin practitioner who provides a full daily routine of topicals will find his client/patient soon grows disenchanted. For example, a once daily topical application of Vitamin C (many marketers even recommend twice a day applications) often quickly leads to poor skin tone, poor texture and loss of vibrancy - even for client/patients who respond initially quite well to it.

But, this is true of any “high-performance” topical product that keys on specific skin receptors. For example Vitamins A, B, C, D, key on specific receptors in skin cells. Receptors rapidly decrease in population and functionality as the skin becomes saturated with the topicals. Thereafter, the skin will be mostly engaged in protecting itself from these once beneficial vitamins. A skin in rehab is really not the look you want is it?

One analogy we like is that receptors are like rooms in a hotel. As the rooms become occupied, the doors not only close, they disappear, until finally, you can’t even get past the front desk without creating a lot of irritation with management.

We find the following two general rules go a long way:

1) never apply a high performance topical product more often than every other day and;

2) never apply two high performance topical products on the same day (except in a studio session).

In the case of retinoids (Vitamin A), the rule of thumb is even more restricted – apply these only twice per week, or even once per week.

Also, look for products that do not mix high performance ingredients together in the same bottle at potent concentrations. For example, a product that contains a high content of Vitamin A should not also contain a high content of Vitamin C.

Often you will find topical vitamin or other high performance ingredients coupled with acids (e.g. glycolic or lactic). This can aggravate the irritation response and rapidly induce skin fatigue. Avoid this combination.

Let’s look at overall considerations of this idea of dose scheduling and its logical extensions.
You will find that if you can provide your client/patient with two different cleansers, alternated daily, you have done them a great service.

And ditto for two moisturizes (see our discussion on Topical Addiction).

In the case of our own 302 products, we generally recommend that our 302 Drops be used a maximum of three or four times per week. We generally recommend our 302 C Boost (a Vitamin C product) be used two or three times per week and our 302 A Boost (a retinoid) only once or twice per week.

Make the client/patient aware of the fact that he will respond to some topical products more than others. Individual responses will vary, you have seen this in your practice. In those cases where response is overwhelmingly positive and rapid, educate your client to REDUCE the frequency of application.

In skin care, if a little is good, very much more is bad.

For example, if a client/patient has an outstanding response to a vitamin C product, reduce the frequency of application. Less is best in high performance topicals.

You want to “prompt” a natural healthy response, not smother the skin. Think of the skin as a house plant - overfeed it with Miracle-Gro and wilting occurs.
nyonyakay
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:37 pm      Reply with quote
Exactly, couldn't agree with that article more.

DIYers have the luxury of tailoring their potions to their skin's fluctuating needs.

I get to "cycle" through the various actives over the week; two different cleansers, two body washes, two shampoos, 3 night creams, two day serums, just to name a few!

Plus I keep experimenting with new potions.

Since I got on this trip 8 months ago, my skin has never looked better.
Wild Cat
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Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:11 am      Reply with quote
Who is this Dr.Hubers? Another Paula Begoun? If what he says is true, my face should be a piece of rug that will not respond to anything anymore and my skin should be sooooo damn "tired" Rolling Eyes

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nyonyakay
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Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:20 am      Reply with quote
Laughing Laughing Laughing
Wild Cat
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Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:12 am      Reply with quote
I really think we need to be critical about what "Doctors" say. There is no doubt that almost of them say different things, regarding the application of actives.
My routine is packed with serious actives and my skin has never looked this great. If my skin is experiencing fatigue then I think I will be the first one to know Rolling Eyes

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katee
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Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:40 am      Reply with quote
I agree with Wild Cat. I follow a skincare regimen that is high in high concentration actives and have VERY good skin.

I find some of what he says to be interesting, and I think it might be useful for those with fragile skin. But, I always have problems with the kind of sweeping generalizations that these guys make. I think they must all attend the same Zealot Training Academy Rolling Eyes
carolb69
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Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:08 am      Reply with quote
Yeah i dont know how much i buy into that theory.I really cant see how retin a is beneficial once a week. Considering the routines some of you guys use with great results,im doubtful.

When exactly will this fatigue occur? Will you wake up one day with your face fallen of Shock

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Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:55 pm      Reply with quote
Good evening ladies, My name is Deedee and I am a newbie and this is my very first post! Can anyone give me a foolproof recipe for Retinol cream? Exact grams of retinol powder/cream ml and what kind of cream to use? Any drugstore cream/lotion will do? And does anyone knows what "oil phase of formulation means"??

Thank you in advance,I anticipate your answers!!!

Embarassed Surprised

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Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:48 am      Reply with quote
ddloe wrote:
Good evening ladies, My name is Deedee and I am a newbie and this is my very first post! Can anyone give me a foolproof recipe for Retinol cream? Exact grams of retinol powder/cream ml and what kind of cream to use? Any drugstore cream/lotion will do? And does anyone knows what "oil phase of formulation means"??

Thank you in advance,I anticipate your answers!!!

Embarassed Surprised


I think the easiest for you to start with would be ACE Oil, containing retinyl palmitate, TetraC, vitamin E oil and a carrier oil such as pomegranate or rosehip seed.

For 33 mls:
0.63g retinyl palmitate
0.32g vitamin e oil
3.16g tetraC http://www.bulkactives.com/ascorbyltetraisopalmitate.htm
27.52g carrier oil such as rosehip seed or pomegranate seed.

Measure on a gram scale and mix.
Store in an amber glass dropper bottle in the dark and in a cool place, recapping to keep air out after each use. Only use at night since retinyl is inactivated by light. Wear sunscreen when using vitamin A.

Another formula for something similar: http://myfunnyvalentineblog.com/2011/07/diy-10-tetra-c-e-and-2-5-coq10-serum.html

Google is your friend for sourcing them. I use SkinEssentialActives.com but you may find them elsewhere as you wish. HTH

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ddloe
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Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:56 am      Reply with quote
Thank you fawnie, your reply was very helpful, I will try your recipe asap!!! One more question: Is it possible to make a retinol 2% body cream and if so, is there a recipe for beginners?

Thank you (again) in advance


Surprised Smile Very Happy

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Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:14 am      Reply with quote
ddloe wrote:
Thank you fawnie, your reply was very helpful, I will try your recipe asap!!! One more question: Is it possible to make a retinol 2% body cream and if so, is there a recipe for beginners?

Thank you (again) in advance


Surprised Smile Very Happy


If you want an easy one why not just add 2% retinol to an existing body cream. 2g retinol in 98g cream.
I dont do that tho I make everything from scratch.
Here is a good link to some formulas that are tried and true: http://skincare.boards.net/thread/265/lotion-101

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Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:30 pm      Reply with quote
fawnie wrote:
ddloe wrote:
Good evening ladies, My name is Deedee and I am a newbie and this is my very first post! Can anyone give me a foolproof recipe for Retinol cream? Exact grams of retinol powder/cream ml and what kind of cream to use? Any drugstore cream/lotion will do? And does anyone knows what "oil phase of formulation means"??

Thank you in advance,I anticipate your answers!!!

Embarassed Surprised


I think the easiest for you to start with would be ACE Oil, containing retinyl palmitate, TetraC, vitamin E oil and a carrier oil such as pomegranate or rosehip seed.

For 33 mls:
0.63g retinyl palmitate
0.32g vitamin e oil
3.16g tetraC http://www.bulkactives.com/ascorbyltetraisopalmitate.htm
27.52g carrier oil such as rosehip seed or pomegranate seed.

Measure on a gram scale and mix.
Store in an amber glass dropper bottle in the dark and in a cool place, recapping to keep air out after each use. Only use at night since retinyl is inactivated by light. Wear sunscreen when using vitamin A.

Another formula for something similar: http://myfunnyvalentineblog.com/2011/07/diy-10-tetra-c-e-and-2-5-coq10-serum.html

Google is your friend for sourcing them. I use SkinEssentialActives.com but you may find them elsewhere as you wish. HTH


Fawnie, am I understanding this correctly that the retinyl palmitate you buy from from Skin Essentials Actives is an oil? If so can you apply that just straight to your skin or does it HAVE to be mixed with something else? Thanks
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Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:30 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Fawnie, am I understanding this correctly that the retinyl palmitate you buy from from Skin Essentials Actives is an oil? If so can you apply that just straight to your skin or does it HAVE to be mixed with something else? Thanks


No it has to be diluted at 0.1% - 5.0% jom!
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/retinyl-palmitate-vitamin-a-10-grams/

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Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:46 pm      Reply with quote
fawnie wrote:
jom wrote:
Fawnie, am I understanding this correctly that the retinyl palmitate you buy from from Skin Essentials Actives is an oil? If so can you apply that just straight to your skin or does it HAVE to be mixed with something else? Thanks


No it has to be diluted at 0.1% - 5.0% jom!
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/retinyl-palmitate-vitamin-a-10-grams/


Thanks fawnie! See, that's why I don't DIY! Laughing
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Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:02 pm      Reply with quote
Girl, but at least you had the perspicacity to ask!
Laughing

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Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:10 pm      Reply with quote
fawnie wrote:
Girl, but at least you had the perspicacity to ask!
Laughing



perspicacity - acute perception: acuteness of discernment or perception

I had to look it up! Never heard that word before! I learned TWO new things today! Laughing
fawnie
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Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:14 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:


perspicacity - acute perception: acuteness of discernment or perception

I had to look it up! Never heard that word before! I learned TWO new things today! Laughing


Oh theres LOTS to learn here Im sure! *evil grin*

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