Doctors and Skin Care Lines
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skin Care and Makeup Forum

free skin care · Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:24 am

I'm certain I can't be the only person to be totaly, and completely confused with the dueling doctors. Each "doctor", we can each fill in our favorite name, presents, what seems, good science based research.
Well, if so, how can one contadict the other?

It becomes especialy muddy when one accuses the other of flawed research or outright fraud. How is a consumer, no matter how intelligent, to be assured they are making an informed decision about theit skin care and doing no harm..
Mad

Thoughts?

free skin care · Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:43 am

If you get to know "ingredients" thoroughly, you will never be at the mercy of hype, raves, Dr's or BS studies, put out by the manufacturer of said product.

There is no magic bullet in a jar or bottle, that will undue a lifetime of damage or neglect.. But there are things that can reverse quite a bit of damage, regenerate the skin over time, and *slow down* the hands of time. If you are willing to put in the time, you will reap the *cumulative* rewards.

In my personal experience and opinion it's all about the anti-oxidants, a peptide or 3, fatty acids and the minimum amount of chemical agents you can manage. The majority of women spend 24 hours a day with *something* on their face, when does it get a rest? How can it do what it's meant to do, which is renew itself, when it is constantly being asked to metabolize all that is being smeared on it? Argh! The best defense is to keep it guessing, give it some time off, and only apply the things that will nourish it.

I'll duck after saying this to avoid the stones being thrown, but the thing I hate most is sunscreen. I only use it occassionally, and prefer to use hats, glasses, clothing and even an umbrella rather than use all those chemicals. And yes I live in Florida, and I don't have even the hint of tan line.

Okay, sorry for getting on my sopabox. The point I wanted to make was to empower yourself with ingredient knowledge, so you aren't at anybody's mercy.

free skin care · Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:40 am

Kassy-A,

Thanks for the response... But it is the actives, which one, that is most perplexing:
Dr P-Copper Peptides
Dr H- Avogen
Dt T- nothing in particular, but he's out there
So what helps or hinders? Vit C, Copper Peptides, HA, Growth factors- UUGH

free skin care · Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:00 pm

Kassy_A.....so glad you mentioned the sunscreen. I detest it!!! Somehow I feel that when I wear it I'm undoing all the benefits from the skin care products I place on my face every morning to nourish, regenerate and protect it. I have a sunscreen graveyard in one of my cupboards loaded with sunscreens that have in some way or another irritated my face, made it break out, left a ghastly coating of white, or made it a grease field. I wear it occasionally when I'm outdoors for long periods of time on high UV days and that's it. I'm done with using it everyday!!

free skin care · Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:51 pm

Same here LeeLee, I only wear it for a day at the beach or the like.

I have such a gut wrenching feeling, that 10 years from now, all those absorbed chemicals are gonna be linked to real health problems for those who use them day in and day out.. (Just a feeling and MHO mind you, so no rock throwing please.. Bad Grin

)

Gee Alien, for me Vitamin C serum, Retin-A, AHA, some nourishing oils + antioxidants each used a few times per week is what "helps" me. As far as what "hinders", I'm afraid my list would include anything laden with filler crap and a boat load of preservatives.. Crying or Very sad

CP's get reviews from great to horrid, so it's really very individual. Vitamin C is fabulous, if you are in the 60% of the population it works for. Personally I think growth factors (for now) are more hype than help..

There is one little *miracle* thing though, that everyone can benefit from, and that's a microfiber cloth or 6.. I'm telling you, I use them from head to toe daily, and my skin is clear, unlined, unblemished, dewy and as soft as silk.. Not too shabby for an old broad.. Laughing

free skin care · Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:44 am

In my opinion, the problem with cosmetic creams is that they can claim anything they want and there is no regulatory body to dispute their claims. Pharmaceutical products, on the other hand, must deliver what they promise. If a drug says it lowers blood pressure, then this is what it must do - and the drug is subject to clinical testing.

Of course, we now have the so-called cosmeceutical creams, usually promoted by doctors, which have much more of an air of authenticity about them. However, the pharmaceutical ingredients that the creams may contain are only in very small amounts. If the product were to contain a large amount of the pharmaceutical ingredient, then the cream would become a drug and be subject to clinical testing and come under the guidelines of the regulatory bodies. This would mean more expense for the cosmetic companies so they don't want to go down that road.

So where does that leave the consumer who is bamboozled by fancy packaging and allot of scientific mumbo jumbo? Basically, as Kassy said, the best thing the consumer can do is to become empowered by learning about what the ingredients are and what they can do. So many times, a cream found on our supermarket shelves has been shown to out-perform high-end products. You just don't get what you pay for anymore.

free skin care · Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:14 am

Let me correct one small point in your statement Keliu. If a "cosmetic" product contains ANY AMOUNT of a pharmaceutical ingredient or drug ingredient, it CANNOT be marketed and sold as a cosmetic! At that point the product becomes a drug. The FDA watches very closely for this, and the recent closing of an eyelash growth product because it contained a glaucoma drug is a fine example of what can happen to these types of people and companies.

Which brings up my point about "Doctor" endorsed cosmetics. These people may or may not be actual doctors. Or, perhaps they have earned a PhD in some other field and then can be called "Doctor". But, being a doctor and endorsing cosmetic products really means nothing! These people should know that they cannot include any drug in a cosmetic product. They should also know that no claims of "curing" or "healing" any human affliction can be made. And, they should know that no ingredient that they use can "alter or change any human function".

Cosmetics are simply that, cosmetics. They are not drugs, and having a "Doctor" endorse them really amounts to nothing special. Although, many consumers "think" that this makes their product special. It doesn't. It's like getting a Professional NASCAR driver to say that a Ford Taurus is the most fantastic, fuel efficient, cost effect, green, non-polluting car on earth. Well it isn't, and just because a race car driver says it means nothing special. I can say it too, just because I drive a car, but that doesn't mean anything either.

Kassy_A has the right point here....READ THE INGREDIENTS LIST! It will tell you everything you need to know about a product, and whether it will do anything for you or not. Ignor all the "marketing hype" and don't even consider "who" endorses it or sells it. Go by the ingredients list alone, because it is the ingredients put together in the proper amount working synergistically with all the other ingredients, and ONLY the ingredients, that do all the work.

John

free skin care · Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:45 pm

From an endorsement standpoint, there are indeed professionals that have earned tremendous respect in the industry from their peers. Dr. Leslie Baumann, chief of the Division of Cosmetic Dermatology and a professor at the University of Miami School of Medicine, is a great example.

If someone like Dr, Baumann recommends a product or an active, then I definitely listen.

free skin care · Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:54 am

Thank you ALL for your feedback.

It is just very frustrating on the part of the consumer to even TRY to be educated about products, ingredients and such. I'm no slouch! As an RN comming out of the armed service having done Nuclear, Biologic and Chemical weaponry,I'm kinda educated Wink

But still find myself in a maze of contradictory "scientific studies". Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:08 pm

Alien wrote:

But still find myself in a maze of contradictory "scientific studies". Rolling Eyes

You've hit the nail on the head - you would think that all these learned doctors could at least agree on something!

free skin care · Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:15 am

NOTCH wrote:

Kassy_A has the right point here....READ THE INGREDIENTS LIST! It will tell you everything you need to know about a product, and whether it will do anything for you or not. Ignor all the "marketing hype" and don't even consider "who" endorses it or sells it. Go by the ingredients list alone, because it is the ingredients put together in the proper amount working synergistically with all the other ingredients, and ONLY the ingredients, that do all the work.

John

That brings up the question: Once you've read the ingredient list, what to do? Where to look for the reliable information ABOUT this ingredient?

free skin care · Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:59 am

RussianSunshine, I tend to go with two primary sources, both of which might be hard to come by. One is the CPCP "INCI Dictionary" which all cosmetic chemists use to identify ingredients and their function. From there, once I've identified ingredients that I like to use, I will contact the manufacturers such as Croda, Uniquema, BASF, Dow, Inolex, Finetex, Noveon, Lipo, and on and on.... and ask them for the literature and test results on the product. This company literature is usually quite extensive on "efficacy" "function", "safety", "loading levels" and gives everything the formulator will need to know to decide if this is a good ingredient or not.

Since the public needs sources available to them as well, here are some of my favorite websites that have some fairly good technical information on cosmetic raw materials. I don't necessarily endorse any of these as the "perfect" source of information, but they can be helpful.

1) http://www.personalcarecouncil.org/

2) http://www.avreskincare.com/misc/about_skincare/cosmetic_ingredients.html

3) http://www.aznaturals.com/ingredients.htm

4) http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/fdapartner_cid.php

5) http://bioleena.com/ingredients_dictionary.html

6) http://essentialsforhim.com/ingredients.html

7) http://www.stylesandscribbles.com/portfolio/writing/style-guides/GB_Glossary926.pdf

Cool

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/cosmetics/cosing/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.simple

9) http://www.bulkactives.com/categories/allproducts_af.htm

10) http://www.truthinaging.com/category/ingredients/a

Hope this helps,

John

free skin care · Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:29 pm

Yes, this helps a lot. Thank you very much for the information. I do need guidance on the ingredients in skin care. Like Kassy_A I think ingredients are one of the important criteria when purchasing a product so the more information I have the better my choice should be.

So, once again thank you.

free skin care · Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:46 am

Here's a question for NOTCH, and a good example of what I find confusing:
Are all HA's equal?
I'm interested in a product that has HA as a main ingredient, third listed. But, I'm aware that HA can suck the moisture OUT of the skin and do more harm than good. When questioned the manufacturer claims theirs is a "buffered" HA and will not do the same...
Do I believe that??

free skin care · Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:19 am

You bring up a good point here Alien, and Hyaluronic Acid is a good example.

Hyaluronic Acid is very popular (and hot) ingredient lately, and for good reason, because it is an excellent source of moisturization for the skin. I use hyaluronic acid in several of my products, and definitely recommend it.

However, not all HAs are the same. And to make matters worse, there are now "subsets" of Hyaluronic Acid!

Formulators now have the choice to use Hyaluronic Acid, or the salt version which is Sodium Hyaluronate. The can also choose between several "molecular weight" versions including High Molecular Weight, Medium Molecular Weight, and Low Molecular Weight HA. This is all aimed at skin penetration, and activity time within the skin. I have to admit, I need to do more research on this topic myself. I may keep the HA that I currently use, or I may move on to another type depending on what the technical literature tells me, and I'll keep you informed on that.

As for Hyaluronic Acid sucking the moisture out of your skin, I wouldn't worry about that. Most formulators use HA in their formulas at very low loading levels. Typical loading levels are usually 3% or less. This is simply not enough concentration of HA to draw water away from your skin, especially since most HA formulas contain a lot of water in them anyway.

It may indeed be a "buffered HA", and without knowing more about the formula I can't say whether this is beneficial or not.

John

free skin care · Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:27 am

is there a dif with the salt version and hya acid itself?

free skin care · Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:56 am

I'm posting this to demonstrate the source of my confusion. This was posted by DR.LOREN PICKART. If they are all doctors and have access to the same research- whats the confusion?

"This is complex but here it is.

1. HA sucks water out of the air and becomes wet. If you put dry HA on a dish, in about 30 minutes you would have a puddle of water. It is a very hygroscopic material, one which attracts moisture from the atmosphere. If not protected from contact with the atmosphere (by being stored under vacuum or under a dry gas) some hygroscopic materials will eventually attract so much water that they will form solutions.

2. Then this water wets or hydrates the outer skin proteins. This weakens the proteins and loosens the protective skin barrier.

The weak skin barrier allows bacteria, viruses, and allergens to pass through the skin. Often famous young actors in their late 20s have a very spotted skin (you often see this on a large screen) from skin barrier damage from heavy use of make up and make up removers.

3. The wet proteins slow keratin production. The signal for the skin to send up new keratinocytes to the surface is a dryness in the proteins in the top of the skin. So skin is replaced slower and damage accumulates.

4. Many years ago, women used Cold Creams to keep their faces moist when they went to bed. If you have seen "I Love Lucy" or old movies, you have seem women with these white creams all over their face. But they ended up with horrible wrinkles as time went by because their skin had been keep too wet.

5. There is the idea of a limited cell life but many cell biologists doubt if this is correct. Many cells line that die in about 40 generations will live very long - such a 200 generations - as normal diploid, cancer-free cells if they are given supplemental growth factors such a fibroblast growth factor, GHK, and other hormones. No one knows how long cells can live because very long cell culture experiments are very expensive.

The body also makes stem cells - even in adults - that can keep setting up new cell lines."

free skin care · Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:53 am

Still hopeing NOTCH has time to look at my last post. Smile

free skin care · Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:04 am

This is the response I received to a personal email i wrote to a cosmetic scientist and frequent contributor to Cosmetics and Toiletries Magazine- a magazine for the industry.

"Dear June,

Thanks for your kind note that I only discovered after my holidays as it ended up in my SPAM filter. You are asking the impossible question. From the packaging, nor from the INCI list can you work out whether or not product works or not. This is frustrating for the consumer, but that is life.

An active ingredient alone in a formulation is not enough. It also needs o be delivered to the site of action in a sufficient concentration and for a sufficiently long period of time to do whatever it needs to do. The extent to which it can do this depends on the thermodynamic activity which is defined as the fraction of maximum solubility. How would you know this as a consumer? Never, unless you have very fancy equipment that even most cosmetic companies do not have as assessing the solubility in a non-transparent system is extremely difficult. (But yo can also work it out via a series of experiments and that is what I do for a living).

Are biopsies the only way to assess whether a product works? Absolutely not. I have done more than 50 of such cosmetic claim substantiation studies and never taken a biopsy. To see whether a skin whitener whitens skin, you do not need a biopsy. If you claim that a product enhances collagen production, a biopsy would be a useful idea but nobody would like that, we therefore look at the consequences of enhancing the collagen production and would be measuring issues like skin stiffness (which you can do by ballistometry, letting a ball bounce on the skin). For every type of claim, this is different again.

I hope I have satisfied your curiosity and thank you for your compliments.

Kind regards and best wishes,

Johann.

Automatic Message

If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.

Click Here to join our community.

If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site.