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This is Miranda
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Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:20 pm      Reply with quote
SoftSkin wrote:
Is there a link to a thread about copper peptides and rolling?


Are CP's anti-inflammatory? If they are, they would be counter-productive to rolling. The skin is healed by the inflammation caused by the pin-pricks.
I think!
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Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:24 pm      Reply with quote
SoftSkin wrote:
Is there a link to a thread about copper peptides and rolling?

I just did my first roll with 1mm needles on Nov. 17 in the morning. I didn't even do it that much or deeply because I couldn't take the pain. I plan to use a benzocaine spray next month. Immediately afterward, I applied Skin Signals CPs from SkinBiology. In the evening, I was afraid to put anything on my skin after washing it because it was red and spotty. I normally use LacSal lactic acid and salicyclic acid at night.

The next morning I washed my face and applied more CPs. In the evening I tried the oil cleansing massage for the first time, washed my face and used the LacSal afterward before bedtime.

Today, more CP in AM. My face is less red but still feels a bit irritated, like a sunburn. I had rolled the backs of my hands and treated them the same way as my face and today I can still see little spots.

For my next roll, I was thinking of just dissolving some Vit C crystals from Trader Joe's in a little water and dabbing on my skin. Should I do that immediately after the roll in the AM or continue using the CP, and dab the Vit C on in the evening? It's my understanding that their healing action is similar so I'm not sure what to do.


Hi, Softskin. I roll, although with a baby roller (.2mm) and use CP's. Dr. Pickart of Skinbiology recommends waiting at least an hour after rolling before applying CP's. Skin Signals is very strong, and if you are going to apply this after rolling, you may want to start out diluting it a bit with distilled water. Say 6 drops SS/4 drops water. Also, you don't want to use Vitamin C within 12 hours of using CP's; the CP's will cancel out the action of the Vitamin C. So you really need to choose one or the other on days you roll. I've been using CP's and a light retinol (Vit. A) cream. But I am contemplating using CP's one day and Vitamin C/Vitamin A the next (I roll twice a week). There is a thread on rolling with CP's, because I've recently read it. I'll see if I can locate it for you.

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Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:42 pm      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
SoftSkin wrote:
Is there a link to a thread about copper peptides and rolling?


Are CP's anti-inflammatory? If they are, they would be counter-productive to rolling. The skin is healed by the inflammation caused by the pin-pricks.
I think!


Miranda, I know there has been much discussion of this topic. I think what makes all the difference here is what your individual goals are. My goal is not to necessarily induce inflammation; it is and has always been to increase product penetration. Since CP's are one of the products I want to get the most out of, for me it makes sense to apply one hour post-rolling. I have also been using IS Clinicals' PolyVitamin and ProHeal serums, which contain A,B,C & E (not on the same day I use CP's).

If I were interested in allowing deeper inflammation to occur, I would be using an oil-based Vitamin C & Vitamin A serum. That's just my personal observation and what I've taken away from the threads. Since we don't know the effects of most skincare products when we receive over 90% product vs. the 3-4% we get with topical application, I prefer to go slowly and observe my own skin's changes. My current plan is to roll twice weekly with my chicken-roller (0.2mm Laughing ), using CP's one time and Pro-Heal (contains A,C & E) the next. I feel that this will be safe and effective, but if I don't get great results, you know me - I'll be onto something else quickly.

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Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:52 pm      Reply with quote
Softskin, this is from the copper peptides forum:

Question: I'm loving my consumer dermaroller that I ordered from Leaf and Rusher, but I don't want it to get in the way of the Cops that came with my scar reduction kit. Are the cop peptides OK with being "driven" into the skin? The stratus corneum only is being breached but even so.....

Thank you Doctor.



Dr. Pickart

I have only heard good comments about using copper peptides and Dermaroller.

This has surprised me since I expected some people to report problems with the system.


I think the comments about using CP's when rolling are somewhere either in this immense thread or one of the other dermarolling threads. Try searching "copper peptides AND dermarolling." HTH!

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Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:19 pm      Reply with quote
jjbeacham wrote:
This is Miranda wrote:

Are CP's anti-inflammatory? If they are, they would be counter-productive to rolling. The skin is healed by the inflammation caused by the pin-pricks.
I think!


Miranda, I know there has been much discussion of this topic. I think what makes all the difference here is what your individual goals are. My goal is not to necessarily induce inflammation; it is and has always been to increase product penetration. Since CP's are one of the products I want to get the most out of, for me it makes sense to apply one hour post-rolling. I have also been using IS Clinicals' PolyVitamin and ProHeal serums, which contain A,B,C & E (not on the same day I use CP's).

If I were interested in allowing deeper inflammation to occur, I would be using an oil-based Vitamin C & Vitamin A serum. That's just my personal observation and what I've taken away from the threads. Since we don't know the effects of most skincare products when we receive over 90% product vs. the 3-4% we get with topical application, I prefer to go slowly and observe my own skin's changes. My current plan is to roll twice weekly with my chicken-roller (0.2mm Laughing ), using CP's one time and Pro-Heal (contains A,C & E) the next. I feel that this will be safe and effective, but if I don't get great results, you know me - I'll be onto something else quickly.


Yes of course, you're absolutely right.... it depends of whether you're looking for product penetration or deep healing from the inside. I always forget about the product penetration side of rolling.
Does it hurt with a .2mm?
Do you get a very red face after?
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Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:09 pm      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
jjbeacham wrote:
This is Miranda wrote:

Are CP's anti-inflammatory? If they are, they would be counter-productive to rolling. The skin is healed by the inflammation caused by the pin-pricks.
I think!


Miranda, I know there has been much discussion of this topic. I think what makes all the difference here is what your individual goals are. My goal is not to necessarily induce inflammation; it is and has always been to increase product penetration. Since CP's are one of the products I want to get the most out of, for me it makes sense to apply one hour post-rolling. I have also been using IS Clinicals' PolyVitamin and ProHeal serums, which contain A,B,C & E (not on the same day I use CP's).

If I were interested in allowing deeper inflammation to occur, I would be using an oil-based Vitamin C & Vitamin A serum. That's just my personal observation and what I've taken away from the threads. Since we don't know the effects of most skincare products when we receive over 90% product vs. the 3-4% we get with topical application, I prefer to go slowly and observe my own skin's changes. My current plan is to roll twice weekly with my chicken-roller (0.2mm Laughing ), using CP's one time and Pro-Heal (contains A,C & E) the next. I feel that this will be safe and effective, but if I don't get great results, you know me - I'll be onto something else quickly.


Yes of course, you're absolutely right.... it depends of whether you're looking for product penetration or deep healing from the inside. I always forget about the product penetration side of rolling.
Does it hurt with a .2mm?
Do you get a very red face after?


It does not hurt at all, it barely tickles. But yes, my face is beet red afterward! So even the baby-rolling does something, judging by my bright red face!

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Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:42 pm      Reply with quote
jjbeacham wrote:
breezy42 wrote:
jjbeacham wrote:

I do facial exercises (Ageless) and love them. I also use my Clarisonic brush to do drybrushing on my face and neck, two minutes morning and night; this has thickened my skin by at least 400%, and I'm not exaggerating! I highly recommend it, even using the Clarisonic to clean your face with water, etc. You could purchase an additional head for drybrushing. It removes toxins, tones and tightens, as well as the skin thickening aspect.JJ


So are you using a clean, dry brush on the Clarisonic and just turning it on? I never would have thought of that. My skin is soooo thin, and I would love to increase the thickness like you have.

You mentioned IS Clinical's Pro-Heal Serum and PolyVitamin Serum. What kind of results have you seen? (oh no, I can't buy more stuff)



Breezy, no I use the brush without attaching it to the Clarisonic. The actual machine is not involved. The brush attachment is all I use, holding it in my hand. I go in circles on the face, then up and out (near the lymph glands under the ears) on the neck; then from mid-chin to ears firmly along the jawline. Be sure your skin and the brush are both dry. I drybrush about 2 minutes or less morning and night. I do facial exercises (Ageless) and massage as well, and to me, the three go hand-in-hand. I do feel that I would not have experienced the amount of skin thickening that I have without the dry brushing. My skin was very thin due to chemo, thin like tissue-paper thin. I will never stop drybrushing. I adore it, and it gets the blood flowing in your face.

Re the IS Clinical serums: they are intense vitamin serums yet they are very gentle. I've used these for almost a year now, and the clarity of my skin is tons better, texture is great also. Both serums are antioxidants/wrinkle reducers. PolyVitamin focuses on the B vitamins and also contains A & E; ProHeal contains A, C & E. I use one in the morning and one at night. If this duo can heal irradiated skin, just imagine what it can do for yours. And no, I am not trying to be a bad influence and induce you to spend more money, just keep these in mind when you are finished with what you're currently using. Very Happy
Here, I go again - sorry for being off topic. I am going to get the brush and dry brush - I can't wait. I, too, have paper thin skin. I am glad that you are feeling better after the chemo Smile I'm sure that the IS Clinical is high quality if it helped you that much after chemo. It's hard for me to wait to try new things. Right now, I'm using Vit C in the am and Retin A at night because I'm rolling. I noticed on your signature that you post at Ageless. I post under breezy42, but I think I only have one since I just started Ageless recently. Thanks for all your help! Smile
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Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:17 pm      Reply with quote
breezy42 wrote:
Here, I go again - sorry for being off topic. I am going to get the brush and dry brush - I can't wait. I, too, have paper thin skin. I am glad that you are feeling better after the chemo Smile I'm sure that the IS Clinical is high quality if it helped you that much after chemo. It's hard for me to wait to try new things. Right now, I'm using Vit C in the am and Retin A at night because I'm rolling. I noticed on your signature that you post at Ageless. I post under breezy42, but I think I only have one since I just started Ageless recently. Thanks for all your help! Smile


Sorry sorry for off-topic posts... Breezy there is a debate that Retin-a thins the skin. I'm not sure how...I read about it somewhere, I think the link was that the peeling you get from it thins out the epidermis - or that was one theory. Might be worth you doing some research there. I've have had a massive problem with rapid thinning of my skin through over-exfoliation. PM me if you're interested in what I've uncovered.
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Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:38 pm      Reply with quote
Interesting about waiting an hour before applying CPs. Because it's used for wound healing, I assumed I had "wounded" myself and applied CP right away. Next time I'll wait an hour in the morning. Then perhaps at night I'll dab on some homemade solution of vitamin C crystals dissolved in water right after my shower.

I suppose it's down to trial and error.
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Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:09 pm      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
breezy42 wrote:
Here, I go again - sorry for being off topic. I am going to get the brush and dry brush - I can't wait. I, too, have paper thin skin. I am glad that you are feeling better after the chemo Smile I'm sure that the IS Clinical is high quality if it helped you that much after chemo. It's hard for me to wait to try new things. Right now, I'm using Vit C in the am and Retin A at night because I'm rolling. I noticed on your signature that you post at Ageless. I post under breezy42, but I think I only have one since I just started Ageless recently. Thanks for all your help! Smile


Sorry sorry for off-topic posts... Breezy there is a debate that Retin-a thins the skin. I'm not sure how...I read about it somewhere, I think the link was that the peeling you get from it thins out the epidermis - or that was one theory. Might be worth you doing some research there. I've have had a massive problem with rapid thinning of my skin through over-exfoliation. PM me if you're interested in what I've uncovered.


Miranda, I firmly believe that retin-a thinned my skin. I was red and peeling for two years. Now, I plan to use oil based retinyl palmitate with an oil-based Vitamin C product for rolling. And of course, my IS Clinical ProHeal. I think this is a safer way to go for me. I do use retin-a one night a week because I very much believe in it, but as an every night product, it's not for me. I never got to the good part of Obagi, and really wish I had been able to.

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Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:12 pm      Reply with quote
SoftSkin wrote:
Interesting about waiting an hour before applying CPs. Because it's used for wound healing, I assumed I had "wounded" myself and applied CP right away. Next time I'll wait an hour in the morning. Then perhaps at night I'll dab on some homemade solution of vitamin C crystals dissolved in water right after my shower.

I suppose it's down to trial and error.


Softskin, I thought the same way you did and was quite surprised to find that you should wait an hour to apply the CP's. I think trial and error is exactly where I am. I am inclined to use an oil-based form of Vitamin C, rather than LAA crystals. I'm afraid the LAA might be too much at that level of penetration. Does it sting your skin after rolling?

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Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:27 am      Reply with quote
jjbeacham wrote:

Miranda, I firmly believe that retin-a thinned my skin. I was red and peeling for two years. Now, I plan to use oil based retinyl palmitate with an oil-based Vitamin C product for rolling. And of course, my IS Clinical ProHeal. I think this is a safer way to go for me. I do use retin-a one night a week because I very much believe in it, but as an every night product, it's not for me. I never got to the good part of Obagi, and really wish I had been able to.


Hi JJ, I also use Retin-a once a week along with my much loved hempseed oil. I don't get flakes this way but I too will not use it every night and I'm glad I never did. I did however use it (0.1%) nearly every night for 6 months on my stomach for SM's and it didn't make any difference.
Re. Obagi - I read through a much shorter "obagi for asian skin' thread and what kept coming up time and again, is that obagi is great/ok as long as you keep using it. Once you stop, the benefits immediately go (posters were mostly concerned with pigmentation).
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Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:12 am      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
jjbeacham wrote:

Miranda, I firmly believe that retin-a thinned my skin. I was red and peeling for two years. Now, I plan to use oil based retinyl palmitate with an oil-based Vitamin C product for rolling. And of course, my IS Clinical ProHeal. I think this is a safer way to go for me. I do use retin-a one night a week because I very much believe in it, but as an every night product, it's not for me. I never got to the good part of Obagi, and really wish I had been able to.


Hi JJ, I also use Retin-a once a week along with my much loved hempseed oil. I don't get flakes this way but I too will not use it every night and I'm glad I never did. I did however use it (0.1%) nearly every night for 6 months on my stomach for SM's and it didn't make any difference.
Re. Obagi - I read through a much shorter "obagi for asian skin' thread and what kept coming up time and again, is that obagi is great/ok as long as you keep using it. Once you stop, the benefits immediately go (posters were mostly concerned with pigmentation).


Miranda, one of the nurses who worked in my doctor's office had very thick skin to begin with. She used Obagi with great success, graduating from 0.05% to 0.1%, and her skin kept getting better and better. Her wrinkles disappeared and her face glowed with health. But I think you must have that type of skin to begin with in order to get those results. I never thought of my skin as overly delicate, but after chemo it was. And I went on Obagi about two years after chemo, so perhaps it was still too fragile to have much success with it. Whatever the reason, I came to feel that retin-a is not my friend. Very Happy I have now purchased a retinyl palmitate oil and a Vitamin C oil for rolling purposes. I don't have pigmentation problems; nor do I have acne. I just want a little extra boost for fine lines. Hopefully I've chosen the right products. BTW, I love, love, love the hemp. Thanks again!

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Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:58 am      Reply with quote
jjbeacham wrote:

Miranda, one of the nurses who worked in my doctor's office had very thick skin to begin with. She used Obagi with great success, graduating from 0.05% to 0.1%, and her skin kept getting better and better. Her wrinkles disappeared and her face glowed with health. But I think you must have that type of skin to begin with in order to get those results. I never thought of my skin as overly delicate, but after chemo it was. And I went on Obagi about two years after chemo, so perhaps it was still too fragile to have much success with it. Whatever the reason, I came to feel that retin-a is not my friend. Very Happy I have now purchased a retinyl palmitate oil and a Vitamin C oil for rolling purposes. I don't have pigmentation problems; nor do I have acne. I just want a little extra boost for fine lines. Hopefully I've chosen the right products. BTW, I love, love, love the hemp. Thanks again!


Absolutely, the key is having thick skin - a friend of mine has skin like a rhino (unfair but true) and the whole Neo Strata acid thing has worked very well for her. However it destroyed my skin.

My pleasure re. the hempseed oil, isn't it a wonder oil! This morning my skin was absolutely glowing - I never notice anything unless it's bad so it must have improved hugely! Either that or the dermaroll I did the other day has had a super-fast effect! (just to bring it back to the topic) Wink
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Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:34 am      Reply with quote
I've just worked out how to download photos... so of course I'm going to be downloading them left, right and centre Very Happy

Here's my glowing face from this morning.... Not a jot of make-up either!

Of course I'm far too shy to show my whole face but you get the idea...

Image Very Happy
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Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:34 pm      Reply with quote
Miranda, I obviously can't see your eyes, but your face is gorgeous! Lovely skin, great bones, and that mouth! Is that due to Ageless or another exercise program? And do you dermaroll your face? You are glowing, Ms. Sexy-Mouth!

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Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:27 am      Reply with quote
jjbeacham wrote:
Miranda, I obviously can't see your eyes, but your face is gorgeous! Lovely skin, great bones, and that mouth! Is that due to Ageless or another exercise program? And do you dermaroll your face? You are glowing, Ms. Sexy-Mouth!


You're so kind! Strange you complement my mouth - I've just stopped doing Ageless because I was building my Obi.Oris and getting a 'monkey mouth'. I do feel since stopping last week, it has started to flatten out; it doesn't show in the photo but it wasn't looking good as it exaggerated my NL line. I think my lips are down to dry brushing them with an old toothbrush at night (plus a good lip balm).
I started dermarolling my face on Nov 3rd and have done it once more since. I don't press too hard - no blood, just alot of redness. I don't think my current skin condition is solely down to dermarolling - it's hard to tell as I'm doing a number of things differently;

I take supplements MSM, Vit c, L Carnosine (doing 2 mths)
I'm aware of my pH balance so I've upped my fruit intake (6 wks)
I'm aiming to do a light DR every 1-2 weeks with Retin-A, Vit C powder & hemp oil after (3 wks)
I've been doing bone massage here & there (thank you for that brilliant Zogan massage link on Ageless which has made it much easier to follow) (3 wks)
I use NUDE cleansing facial oil to remove makeup at night (2 wks)
I use Ren Omega 3 serum overnight (also has small Vit A & E) (1 mth)
Morning, I put hempseel oil and let it soak then get the vaculift out (2 mths)
I use a Dauphin toner to remove excess and splash on cold water (2 yrs)
Then I apply NUDE advanced smoothing complex (2 wks) or hemp oil if skin is dry from Retin-A (2mths)
Then creme de la mer moisturizer (3 mths)

And that's it! Sounds like alot, but it doesn't seem like high-maintenance when doing it.

My skin feels thicker and just sort of glows which is a very recent factor (hence the photo) - maybe it's the combination of all the new stuff both topical and internal, I'll know for sure over xmas when I go abroad as I'll only be able to keep up certain parts of my regime.
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Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:31 am      Reply with quote
Miranda, your skin looks fabulous!!! Congratulations on your results. I'm actually a few years younger than you and your skin is in better shape than mine.

I have only been on EDS for a couple of months and I don't even recognize some of the things you listed. Now I'm going to have to start researching some of it.

I have a few questions.
1. What size dermaroller do you use?
2. Can you post the Zogan massage link you mentioned?
3. If you had to single out one or two items that have made the biggest difference for you, what would they be?

Thank you.

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Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am      Reply with quote
Tonia wrote:
Miranda, your skin looks fabulous!!! Congratulations on your results. I'm actually a few years younger than you and your skin is in better shape than mine.

I have only been on EDS for a couple of months and I don't even recognize some of the things you listed. Now I'm going to have to start researching some of it.

I have a few questions.
1. What size dermaroller do you use?
2. Can you post the Zogan massage link you mentioned?
3. If you had to single out one or two items that have made the biggest difference for you, what would they be?

Thank you.


Hi Tonia
1. I use a 1.5mm DR but I don't use numbing creams so I'm never pressing really deeply - it's probably the equivalent of using a 0.5mm-1mm. Sorry that's a bit vague, I actually only invested in a DR for my tummy SM's.

2. The Zogan massage is here
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ffaceculture.ru%2Fasahi.php
This was uncovered by jjbeacham (aka Maggiemay on Ageless).

3. Hmmmm.... so many different changes, it's difficult. Probably the Hempseed Oil and Vaculift - those were the two that made over-night changes.

I have to say, I always had good skin until I visited a dermatologist in May and her regime ruined my skin. Since Sept, I've just been working on returning my skin to as it was. Apart from the parenthesis lines round my mouth, everything is as good as it was (except the glow, that's better than ever!)
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Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:51 am      Reply with quote
FYI, cosmeticskinsolutions.com sells some nice looking and reasonably priced DR kits that include EMLA cream. They also have some very nicely priced products that look almost identical to Skinceuticals!

I just wish they sold the EMLA cream in single tubes, because I don't roll enough to need five tubes.
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Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:49 am      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
jjbeacham wrote:
Miranda, I obviously can't see your eyes, but your face is gorgeous! Lovely skin, great bones, and that mouth! Is that due to Ageless or another exercise program? And do you dermaroll your face? You are glowing, Ms. Sexy-Mouth!


You're so kind! Strange you complement my mouth - I've just stopped doing Ageless because I was building my Obi.Oris and getting a 'monkey mouth'. I do feel since stopping last week, it has started to flatten out; it doesn't show in the photo but it wasn't looking good as it exaggerated my NL line. I think my lips are down to dry brushing them with an old toothbrush at night (plus a good lip balm).
I started dermarolling my face on Nov 3rd and have done it once more since. I don't press too hard - no blood, just alot of redness. I don't think my current skin condition is solely down to dermarolling - it's hard to tell as I'm doing a number of things differently;

I take supplements MSM, Vit c, L Carnosine (doing 2 mths)
I'm aware of my pH balance so I've upped my fruit intake (6 wks)
I'm aiming to do a light DR every 1-2 weeks with Retin-A, Vit C powder & hemp oil after (3 wks)
I've been doing bone massage here & there (thank you for that brilliant Zogan massage link on Ageless which has made it much easier to follow) (3 wks)
I use NUDE cleansing facial oil to remove makeup at night (2 wks)
I use Ren Omega 3 serum overnight (also has small Vit A & E) (1 mth)
Morning, I put hempseel oil and let it soak then get the vaculift out (2 mths)
I use a Dauphin toner to remove excess and splash on cold water (2 yrs)
Then I apply NUDE advanced smoothing complex (2 wks) or hemp oil if skin is dry from Retin-A (2mths)
Then creme de la mer moisturizer (3 mths)

And that's it! Sounds like alot, but it doesn't seem like high-maintenance when doing it.

My skin feels thicker and just sort of glows which is a very recent factor (hence the photo) - maybe it's the combination of all the new stuff both topical and internal, I'll know for sure over xmas when I go abroad as I'll only be able to keep up certain parts of my regime.


Miranda, your mouth looks amazing. I'm going to start drybrushing mine - strange that I have left the mouth out. I too firmly believe in supplements, and take almost the same things that you take. You are much like me - if I were to type out my beauty regimen, it would take an hour, yet it's quick and easy for me, and not at all high maintenance. I more or less let my skin tell me what it needs.

I am very excited about rolling and am rolling for the second time this afternoon. My roller is a baby one, but it too makes the skin very red, and I'm sure allows much greater product penetration. I'm very interested in the Vacu-Lifter knowing that you use one and am off to read that thread! You look gorgeous!

BTW, I found the link to the Russian Zogan site here on EDS; I believe Moonstone originally posted it. I don't want to take credit for that; I too think it's brilliant. I wanted to be sure all of the Ageless beauties had access to it. Thank you, Moonstone!

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Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:10 am      Reply with quote
I rolled my face last night with product penetration in mind - so for the first time I put Retin-A onto my skin before rolling. I think I may have rolled harder than I should have - I had a dozen blood spots after. I then put my Ren Omega 3, Vit A & E serum on, mixed with a little Vit C powder. At first my face was red and tingling. Once in bed, I could feel my skin getting tight and sore. I've awoken to find it quite swollen (so this is what I'd look like with filler!).

I'm worried as I've never had the swollen look before (my stomach is where I usually roll harder but that has never felt tight).

Does anyone else get this and can you guide me through what will happen next?
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:04 pm      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
I rolled my face last night with product penetration in mind - so for the first time I put Retin-A onto my skin before rolling. I think I may have rolled harder than I should have - I had a dozen blood spots after. I then put my Ren Omega 3, Vit A & E serum on, mixed with a little Vit C powder. At first my face was red and tingling. Once in bed, I could feel my skin getting tight and sore. I've awoken to find it quite swollen (so this is what I'd look like with filler!).

I'm worried as I've never had the swollen look before (my stomach is where I usually roll harder but that has never felt tight).

Does anyone else get this and can you guide me through what will happen next?


First, the swelling WILL go down, just do NOT use anymore retin-a for at least four days. I don't know the strength of your Vitamin A & C serum, but that sounds like what I use. I do NOT use LAA powder when rolling. I consider it too strong and too harsh for my face to use even the same day as rolling. I also don't roll retin-a in - I apply it one hour post-rolling. I roll in IS Clinical ProHeal, but any gentle Vitamin A,C & E serum would be virtually the same. You might also apply your hempseed oil. I think it would be very healing and soothing, perhaps mixed with a Vitamin E oil.

I don't draw blood because my needles are very short (0.2mm), and I deliberately purchased a roller for the face that would not draw blood with light pressure. However, if I were to exert more pressure, I'm sure I could get blood spots. With product penetration, a very light hand or very short needles (or both) is required. It's very different from rolling the stomach, where the skin is extremely thick.

Miranda, I am assuming from your post that the swelling is not outrageous, but more of a gentle swelling. So I think your Vitamin serum should be applied for the next four days, then when the swelling is down, continue using your retin-a. If the swelling is more extreme than that (than gentle swelling), I would apply ice packs periodically and use hempseed/vitamin E oils, slowly moving up to using the Vitamin C oil, then retin-a once again. Go slowly, be gentle with products, and be patient. You have NOT done irreparable harm to your face. You have actually probably done it quite a bit of good, but those strong products are bound to produce this type of reaction in most of us.

If you are rolling your face to get inflammation, that is a completely different protocol than that used when rolling for penetration only. I think it's critical to note than when rolling for product penetration only, you should roll very lightly. It should only tickle. Even rolling lightly enough to simply tickle the skin will result in a bright red face and open channels into the lower layers of the skin.

While I might roll a serum containing Vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate) INTO the skin with my roller, I do not roll in products that have great strength as topicals, such as LAA or Retin-A or copper peptides. Those I apply AFTER rolling, because they are going to penetrate so deeply and because they work even when the absorption rate is only 3-4%. Just imagine what they can do when they are 90+% absorbed. With retin-a, I wait one hour after rolling with ProHeal. With copper peptides, I wait one hour and roll using only hot water. The channels will still be partially open even after an hour, so you are still going to get incredible product penetration an hour after rolling.

I think perhaps we need to have a thread that is concerned with dermarolling for product penetration only. I'll start one, so that we don't have to search this monster for answers. In the meantime, be calm. This swelling is temporary and actually to be expected. I think the rule-of-thumb for product penetration rolling should be determined by how harsh the topical is when NOT rolling, if that makes sense. HTH!

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Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:48 pm      Reply with quote
jjbeacham wrote:

First, the swelling WILL go down, just do NOT use anymore retin-a for at least four days. I don't know the strength of your Vitamin A & C serum, but that sounds like what I use. I do NOT use LAA powder when rolling. I consider it too strong and too harsh for my face to use even the same day as rolling. I also don't roll retin-a in - I apply it one hour post-rolling. I roll in IS Clinical ProHeal, but any gentle Vitamin A,C & E serum would be virtually the same. You might also apply your hempseed oil. I think it would be very healing and soothing, perhaps mixed with a Vitamin E oil.

I don't draw blood because my needles are very short (0.2mm), and I deliberately purchased a roller for the face that would not draw blood with light pressure. However, if I were to exert more pressure, I'm sure I could get blood spots. With product penetration, a very light hand or very short needles (or both) is required. It's very different from rolling the stomach, where the skin is extremely thick.

Miranda, I am assuming from your post that the swelling is not outrageous, but more of a gentle swelling. So I think your Vitamin serum should be applied for the next four days, then when the swelling is down, continue using your retin-a. If the swelling is more extreme than that (than gentle swelling), I would apply ice packs periodically and use hempseed/vitamin E oils, slowly moving up to using the Vitamin C oil, then retin-a once again. Go slowly, be gentle with products, and be patient. You have NOT done irreparable harm to your face. You have actually probably done it quite a bit of good, but those strong products are bound to produce this type of reaction in most of us.

If you are rolling your face to get inflammation, that is a completely different protocol than that used when rolling for penetration only. I think it's critical to note than when rolling for product penetration only, you should roll very lightly. It should only tickle. Even rolling lightly enough to simply tickle the skin will result in a bright red face and open channels into the lower layers of the skin.

While I might roll a serum containing Vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate) INTO the skin with my roller, I do not roll in products that have great strength as topicals, such as LAA or Retin-A or copper peptides. Those I apply AFTER rolling, because they are going to penetrate so deeply and because they work even when the absorption rate is only 3-4%. Just imagine what they can do when they are 90+% absorbed. With retin-a, I wait one hour after rolling with ProHeal. With copper peptides, I wait one hour and roll using only hot water. The channels will still be partially open even after an hour, so you are still going to get incredible product penetration an hour after rolling.

I think perhaps we need to have a thread that is concerned with dermarolling for product penetration only. I'll start one, so that we don't have to search this monster for answers. In the meantime, be calm. This swelling is temporary and actually to be expected. I think the rule-of-thumb for product penetration rolling should be determined by how harsh the topical is when NOT rolling, if that makes sense. HTH!


Thanks JJ - your advice is greatly appreciated. The swelling has started to go down - and no one did a double take so it was only gentle - but my skin did feel very tight.
It's a good idea to start a new thread for product penetration - I thought the same rules apply and usually I do my homework but this thread is just too long to read through.
I only use Retin-A once a week, so won't be using it again and yes, I've had the hempseed oil on all day. When rolling last night, I didn't realise how hard I was pressing - but today I could see the DR track marks and my pores looked enlarged (maybe the pin marks).
I'm going to invest in a 0.2-.5mm. And NEVER use it with Retin_A again!

Typical... just when my skin was looking good, I had to ruin it!!!
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:09 pm      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:

Thanks JJ - your advice is greatly appreciated. The swelling has started to go down - and no one did a double take so it was only gentle - but my skin did feel very tight.
It's a good idea to start a new thread for product penetration - I thought the same rules apply and usually I do my homework but this thread is just too long to read through.
I only use Retin-A once a week, so won't be using it again and yes, I've had the hempseed oil on all day. When rolling last night, I didn't realise how hard I was pressing - but today I could see the DR track marks and my pores looked enlarged (maybe the pin marks).
I'm going to invest in a 0.2-.5mm. And NEVER use it with Retin_A again!

Typical... just when my skin was looking good, I had to ruin it!!!


Lol - I would think the same thing, but actually, I think you're going to find that your skin is looking better than ever in about 5-7 days. The tightness is actually part of the results when rolling the face, even when lightly rolling it and using only water. I've started a new thread and hopefully, there will be lots of input there, as this is definitely a feel-your-way project for most of us.

And remember, I am only telling you what I know and what I have experienced. You may well be the one who is doing it the best way by using those stronger products. I'm going to experiment with them as well in time, just to be sure which I prefer. And I expect to get red, to swell, and perhaps to peel when I do. Very Happy

I don't know that there is any right way or wrong way to do this. But there is a more conservative approach, and that is what I am doing at the moment.

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