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Tigerlilly
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Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:06 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Does Fernandes say why not to use Ascorbic acid, Bethany, or anyone who knows?

********************************************

I would be interested to know this too. I use it and have had no problems. My skin reacts very well to Ascorbic acid, and my understanding is the it is the only form of vitamin C that has enough peer reviewed research to back it up.
If I had to hazard a guess as to why not to use it, it would be because it might irritate your skin? See, this confuses me because it does not irritate my skin ever, but I think it does irritate some people's skin? What's even more confusing to me is that I read years ago about some dermatologist saying that ascorbic acid applied topically is excellent for sunburnt skin? I don't do sun, so I've never tried that, but it seems to be your skin can't get too much more irritated than sun burn, so...Confused! Confused
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Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:50 am      Reply with quote
It is all too confusing. I have read and been told that Retin A or a derivative of it.. is the best skin care product that is out on the market. It is the only product that has the ability help your skin from aging.

Isn't Retin A or the derivative Vit A? or come from this?

And.. is Ascorbic acid vit C?
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Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:49 am      Reply with quote
Tigerlilly wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
Does Fernandes say why not to use Ascorbic acid, Bethany, or anyone who knows?

********************************************

I would be interested to know this too. I use it and have had no problems. My skin reacts very well to Ascorbic acid, and my understanding is the it is the only form of vitamin C that has enough peer reviewed research to back it up.
If I had to hazard a guess as to why not to use it, it would be because it might irritate your skin? See, this confuses me because it does not irritate my skin ever, but I think it does irritate some people's skin? What's even more confusing to me is that I read years ago about some dermatologist saying that ascorbic acid applied topically is excellent for sunburnt skin? I don't do sun, so I've never tried that, but it seems to be your skin can't get too much more irritated than sun burn, so...Confused! Confused


It is basically because you don't want to pour any kind of acid into an open wound...and putting it on right after rolling does constitute an open wound.

Here is a quote from another book I read called "The Beautiful Skin Workout" by the very pompous and condescending Michelle Copeland, MD, DMD who runs a plastic surgey office out of Manhattan:

"Once you cause a hole by picking at your face, you create a little sore. You cannot put acid on it. Let me repeat that: You cannot put acid on an open wound. It's irritating and it will burn."

I also read another great article last night from Ben Johnson of Cosmedix/Osmosis. He talked about how micro-inflammation is invisible AND may make skin look more plump, etc., but it does contribute to chronic inflammation which can be damaging.

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rileygirl
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Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:15 pm      Reply with quote
Ok, thanks Bethany. Makes sense not to put an acid on an open wound!
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Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:25 pm      Reply with quote
Yes, I think it's because of the stinging that is associated with Vitamin C. And considering the fact that the patients Dr. F has treated leave his clinic a bloodied and oozing mess, this would definitely be a factor! I use oil soluble Vit C and it doesn't sting at all, so maybe that is why he recommends using that. Also, he is primarily recommending the Environ products.
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Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:12 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks, Keliu. I am trying to follow Fernandes protocol and looked into the Environ products! I use the 302 C boost mixed with the 302 A boost right after my roll, and that does not sting at all. But, I go right back to my skinceuticals in the morning after the roll, as that is my favorite C! It does sting briefly the morning after the roll, so I guess it would really sting right afterwards!
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Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:11 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Keliu,I would love to know your routine and what you are using.







Smile
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Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:26 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu,I would be interested as well.
Toby
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:53 am      Reply with quote
Hi everyone. I recently bought a 2.5mm dermaroller and tried it for the first time tonight.

Are you supposed to apply enough pressure so the entire needle length punctures the skin?
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:58 am      Reply with quote
wantingasolution wrote:
Hi everyone. I recently bought a 2.5mm dermaroller and tried it for the first time tonight.

Are you supposed to apply enough pressure so the entire needle length punctures the skin?


Hi there...welcome to EDS!

How deep you use the needles depends on what you want to accomplish:
- Product penetration just requires a slight puncture (like with the .15mm length)
- Collagen generation can take place in some instances with .5mm, but .75mm to 1.0mm are better.
- Breaking up scare tissue bundles are done with 1.5mm and up.

So with a 2.5mm, I think it's pretty safe to say that you do NOT have to penetrate all the way unless you are trying to do some SERIOUS scar removal.

Please keep in mind that longer needles mean more risk of infection, so be sure to use clear idodine, etc. to disinfect.

HTH!

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mb935
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:27 am      Reply with quote
I had asked a similar question before...

I cant even imagine getting the 2.5 needles into the skin completely. Ive read using medium pressure - so to get that length into the skin - wouldnt you be pushing pretty hard? I cant even imagine the pain either.

I only use the bactine spray for pain - so maybe I need something stronger to push a bit deeper.

Also - can hyluranic (sp) acid be used with rolling?


THANKS
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:31 am      Reply with quote
mb935 wrote:
Also - can hyluranic (sp) acid be used with rolling?

THANKS


I think several women here do use that after rolling. It occurs naturally in skin anyway, so it doesn't see like it would be a no-no.

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Tigerlilly
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:59 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Tigerlilly wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
Does Fernandes say why not to use Ascorbic acid, Bethany, or anyone who knows?

********************************************

I would be interested to know this too. I use it and have had no problems. My skin reacts very well to Ascorbic acid, and my understanding is the it is the only form of vitamin C that has enough peer reviewed research to back it up.
If I had to hazard a guess as to why not to use it, it would be because it might irritate your skin? See, this confuses me because it does not irritate my skin ever, but I think it does irritate some people's skin? What's even more confusing to me is that I read years ago about some dermatologist saying that ascorbic acid applied topically is excellent for sunburnt skin? I don't do sun, so I've never tried that, but it seems to be your skin can't get too much more irritated than sun burn, so...Confused! Confused


It is basically because you don't want to pour any kind of acid into an open wound...and putting it on right after rolling does constitute an open wound.

Here is a quote from another book I read called "The Beautiful Skin Workout" by the very pompous and condescending Michelle Copeland, MD, DMD who runs a plastic surgey office out of Manhattan:

"Once you cause a hole by picking at your face, you create a little sore. You cannot put acid on it. Let me repeat that: You cannot put acid on an open wound. It's irritating and it will burn."

I also read another great article last night from Ben Johnson of Cosmedix/Osmosis. He talked about how micro-inflammation is invisible AND may make skin look more plump, etc., but it does contribute to chronic inflammation which can be damaging.


*******************************************

Well, that makes sense. I must have some kind of burn resistant skin cuz I use ascorbic acid 25% immediately after rolling and I feel nothing. Oddly enough, the first time I did it, it with 20%, it did burn, but after that? Nothing? Maybe I'm just getting used to all the torture I inflict upon myself? Shock
I'm not due for a serious roll for another few months, but I'll be looking for something else besides an acid to use...
Meanwhile, I'm pondering this question. Ok, derms say that collagen creams/serums etc are useless because the collagen molecules are simply too big to penetrate the skin, but I'm wondering if the micro-injuries we cause when we roll are big enough to allow the molecules to penetrate the skin, assuming it's applied before the injuries heal? Anyone have any insight, opinions on this?
bethany
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:10 am      Reply with quote
Tigerlilly wrote:
Meanwhile, I'm pondering this question. Ok, derms say that collagen creams/serums etc are useless because the collagen molecules are simply too big to penetrate the skin, but I'm wondering if the micro-injuries we cause when we roll are big enough to allow the molecules to penetrate the skin, assuming it's applied before the injuries heal? Anyone have any insight, opinions on this?


Here is a perspective:

Quote:
Admittedly, there are a few emerging techniques to create a better collagen cream. Some companies use partially hydrolyzed collagen, i.e. collagen chopped up into fragments small enough to penetrate the skin. But even if such downsized collagen penetrates the skin, the fragments are too small to properly integrate into the skin's own collagen framework. They are likely to be quickly washed out of the skin via lymphatic flow. Finally, a few companies claim to possess unique transdermal technologies to deliver full-size collagen deep into the skin via topical application. This is an intriguing claim not yet supported by sufficient evidence. Even if true, it is unclear whether even successful transdermal delivery of full-size collagen will cause it to integrate into the skin matrix and improve the skin's strength and regularity. This research is worth following though. (See also our article on collagen treatments). Admittedly, there are a few emerging techniques to create a better collagen cream. Some companies use partially hydrolyzed collagen, i.e. collagen chopped up into fragments small enough to penetrate the skin. But even if such downsized collagen penetrates the skin, the fragments are too small to properly integrate into the skin's own collagen framework. They are likely to be quickly washed out of the skin via lymphatic flow. Finally, a few companies claim to possess unique transdermal technologies to deliver full-size collagen deep into the skin via topical application. This is an intriguing claim not yet supported by sufficient evidence. Even if true, it is unclear whether even successful transdermal delivery of full-size collagen will cause it to integrate into the skin matrix and improve the skin's strength and regularity. This research is worth following though. (See also our article on collagen treatments).

http://www.smartskincare.com/smartchoices/myths/myth_collagen_creams.html


And another link (I think from the same guy):

http://users.erols.com/gtodorov/skincare/collag.htm

And one more:

Quote:
...collagen will degenerate because there is an enzyme that actually chops it up and recycles it. High tech sounding skin care solutions claim they can inhibit these enzymes. None have been proven to work.

http://www.truthinaging.com/2007/11/topical-collage.html#more

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Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:39 pm      Reply with quote
skin care addict wrote:
Hi Keliu,I would love to know your routine and what you are using.

This thread moves so fast.
Toby and I will ask again. Keliu Smile curious minds want to know your routine and products.


Smile




Very Happy
bethany
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:49 pm      Reply with quote
skin care addict wrote:
skin care addict wrote:
Hi Keliu,I would love to know your routine and what you are using.

This thread moves so fast.
Toby and I will ask again. Keliu Smile curious minds want to know your routine and products.
Smile

Very Happy


Here a couple of quotes from her to get you started...hopefully Keliu will update you if anything has changed:

Keliu wrote:
However, basically you need one roller to stimulate collagen - this roller is used weekly for six weeks. I chose to use a 1.5mm. And one roller to aid in product penetration - this roller can be used more frequently. I chose a .5mm - some use even small needles but I find the .5 quite comfortable to use and use it every second or third day. HTH.


Keliu wrote:
I am taking a break from using my 1.5 roller and instead am rolling with the .5. I'm applying my usual serums, Retin-A, emu oil and then rolling it all into the skin. My reasoning behind this is that since I have been rubbing emu oil into my nails, my nails have visibly changed. They are thicker, opaque instead of transparent and they no longer break or split. Which leads me to surmise that if the emu oil is "feeding" my nails, it will do the same for my skin.


Keliu wrote:
momcat2lou wrote:
Thanks, Keliu. What other products do you use in your skincare regimen?


I'm basically a fan of oils now. I think all the years of using high-end creams just clogged up my pores. I use Rosehip Oil, Vitamin E Oil, Pomegranate Oil and Emu Oil - just 1-2 drops of each. For serums: DIY Vitamin C, Skinactives "Let's Make Collagen". I haven't got the Remergent DNA Repair Formular yet but if you have a look at this thread you will see why I'm considering it.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=16358&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

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Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:39 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks Bethany.
I have pretty much switched to oils also.
This whole rolling thing is so fascinating ,at least to me.
I can hardly wait for mine to arrive. I did a ebay oops and got a 2.5. Embarassed instead of the 1.5 I was really wanting.
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:13 pm      Reply with quote
skin care addict wrote:
Thanks Bethany.
I have pretty much switched to oils also.
This whole rolling thing is so fascinating ,at least to me.
I can hardly wait for mine to arrive. I did a ebay oops and got a 2.5. Embarassed instead of the 1.5 I was really wanting.


Did you ask the seller if you could change it?

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Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:31 pm      Reply with quote
I pmed you. Dont want to get OT. Very Happy
wantingasolution
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:38 pm      Reply with quote
dear friends:

thanks for the reply.

the pain is pretty darn bad, i thought i would be okay since i can tolerate most pain, but this was something else! at one point i was lying on my bed and half passed out.

Anyhow, I am actually trying to reach some pretty deep scars. i pick at my skin alot, so have rolling and pitted scars on my cheeks, nose, and between my eyebrows.

i think i will try it at home first to see if there are any results, and go see a professional afterwards if i find it to work.

thank u!!!
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:50 pm      Reply with quote
wantingasolution wrote:
dear friends:

thanks for the reply.

the pain is pretty darn bad, i thought i would be okay since i can tolerate most pain, but this was something else! at one point i was lying on my bed and half passed out.

Anyhow, I am actually trying to reach some pretty deep scars. i pick at my skin alot, so have rolling and pitted scars on my cheeks, nose, and between my eyebrows.

i think i will try it at home first to see if there are any results, and go see a professional afterwards if i find it to work.

thank u!!!


I can totally relate to the pain. You might want to pick up some of the 10% lidocaine solution called "Climax Spray" from alldaychemist.com...that is the only thing that really helps me (plus a couple of glasses of wine).

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TanyaB
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:30 am      Reply with quote
Hi Girls,

On Friday night, using your advice, i applied Emla and after 15 minutes rolled my 1.5 mm.
It was my second 1.5-rolling and first time with Emla. So, this time I rolled vigorously.
I heard same pop sound as many of you mentioned.
Ew, gross! Anyway, I was bleeding all over the face, I applied Retin A then. All night I felt like my skin disconnecting from my skull. Weird feeling. Yesterday my skin was sunburn-red. I think I scared many people while doing shopping with my kids Laughing
Today the redness is lessened, but the skin is sensitive even for emu oil (it becomes red).
I felt the flaking is starting, so I used my Clarisonic today to exfoliate.
Just read Keliu's comments that her skin looks her best after 1 year of using Roller. My skin looks its worst now. I just need the words of reassurance that it's temporary Smile . Tomorrow is Monday and work-week is starting. I don't want to look ugly Crying or Very sad

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Tigerlilly
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:55 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Tigerlilly wrote:
Meanwhile, I'm pondering this question. Ok, derms say that collagen creams/serums etc are useless because the collagen molecules are simply too big to penetrate the skin, but I'm wondering if the micro-injuries we cause when we roll are big enough to allow the molecules to penetrate the skin, assuming it's applied before the injuries heal? Anyone have any insight, opinions on this?


Here is a perspective:

Quote:
Admittedly, there are a few emerging techniques to create a better collagen cream. Some companies use partially hydrolyzed collagen, i.e. collagen chopped up into fragments small enough to penetrate the skin. But even if such downsized collagen penetrates the skin, the fragments are too small to properly integrate into the skin's own collagen framework. They are likely to be quickly washed out of the skin via lymphatic flow. Finally, a few companies claim to possess unique transdermal technologies to deliver full-size collagen deep into the skin via topical application. This is an intriguing claim not yet supported by sufficient evidence. Even if true, it is unclear whether even successful transdermal delivery of full-size collagen will cause it to integrate into the skin matrix and improve the skin's strength and regularity. This research is worth following though. (See also our article on collagen treatments). Admittedly, there are a few emerging techniques to create a better collagen cream. Some companies use partially hydrolyzed collagen, i.e. collagen chopped up into fragments small enough to penetrate the skin. But even if such downsized collagen penetrates the skin, the fragments are too small to properly integrate into the skin's own collagen framework. They are likely to be quickly washed out of the skin via lymphatic flow. Finally, a few companies claim to possess unique transdermal technologies to deliver full-size collagen deep into the skin via topical application. This is an intriguing claim not yet supported by sufficient evidence. Even if true, it is unclear whether even successful transdermal delivery of full-size collagen will cause it to integrate into the skin matrix and improve the skin's strength and regularity. This research is worth following though. (See also our article on collagen treatments).

http://www.smartskincare.com/smartchoices/myths/myth_collagen_creams.html


And another link (I think from the same guy):

http://users.erols.com/gtodorov/skincare/collag.htm

And one more:

Quote:
...collagen will degenerate because there is an enzyme that actually chops it up and recycles it. High tech sounding skin care solutions claim they can inhibit these enzymes. None have been proven to work.

http://www.truthinaging.com/2007/11/topical-collage.html#more


**********************************************

Thanks! That should save me a few bucks then. Well, maybe some day they will invent a real collagen cream, and we rollers will be ahead of the game! (one can always dream).
On the same note, whilst trying to find something to replace ascorbic acid immediately after my deeper rolls, I'm toying with the idea of trying Elastica. Has anyone tried it and if so, does anyone think that would be a good product to try post roll?
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:46 am      Reply with quote
TanyaB wrote:
Today the redness is lessened, but the skin is sensitive even for emu oil (it becomes red).
I felt the flaking is starting, so I used my Clarisonic today to exfoliate.
Just read Keliu's comments that her skin looks her best after 1 year of using Roller. My skin looks its worst now. I just need the words of reassurance that it's temporary Smile . Tomorrow is Monday and work-week is starting. I don't want to look ugly Crying or Very sad


Honestly, the Clarasonic is probably not what you need that soon after you roll...you need to be extra gentle when you skin is trying to heal.

The more gentle you are, the quicker the visible inflammation will recede.

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bethany
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:52 am      Reply with quote
Tigerlilly wrote:
On the same note, whilst trying to find something to replace ascorbic acid immediately after my deeper rolls, I'm toying with the idea of trying Elastica. Has anyone tried it and if so, does anyone think that would be a good product to try post roll?


Quote:
About Elastica(TM)

As we age, our bodies produce less and less Elastin. As a result, fine lines, sagging and wrinkles occur in our skin. Elastica(TM) contains a patented active ingredient that enhances the quality of skin dermal fibroblasts, the connective tissue cells that are so important for maintaining youthful-looking skin. The active ingredient is a group of small peptides (compounds containing two or more amino acids), co-invented by Drs. Sandberg and Roos and coined Hydrophilic Elastin Peptides, or HEP™ for short. Some of the peptides in the mix have hormonal activity toward skin cells, which causes a chain of events that results in the deposit of new elastic fibers in the skin, thus enhancing the skin's natural elasticity.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pwwi/is_200405/ai_mark1823676800


The skin will generate it's own fibroplasts as part of the wound healing cascade from the rolling.

I would personally stick with what the experts recommend....Vit A and oil soluble Vit C - this will fuel both the generation of fibroplasts and collagen.

Keep in mind that these doctors have probably tested lots of stuff, and this is what they use on their patients to get the best results. I decide to give up the CPs after rolling...Fernandes doesn't use them, and he is the expert...so I chunked them!

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