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DermaRoller

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taobunny
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Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:12 pm      Reply with quote
Mishey wrote:
Yikes I've made the page wide. Surprised

Sorry.


Yowza, that looks owie! But, I'm sure you'll get great results from such a strong roll...
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Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:47 pm      Reply with quote
Hello, ladies,
I've spent the last three days reading this thread and will need three more days to finish all 103 pages.

Here I am, on page 51, totally metamorphosed: from that person on page 1 that thought someone would need a masochist gene in their genetic package in order to use this torture device, into the new me, the I-cannot-wait-to-try-it person...

My conclusions so far:
- it seems that Dr. Roller is the favorite
- 1.5 mm is good for collagen stimulation and not severe wrinkles
- .5 mm (or less) is OK to be used more frequently (daily or every 2 days) for product penetration
- for the vertical upper lip wrinkles, someone said the 1 mm is better and Bethany posted an article about drs that used the 1 mm and 3 mm on lip lines.
- the 3line is better for use in the eye area

Am I correct?

So, I am thinking to get three rollers from Dr. Roller, a .5 mm, a 3line 1 mm, and a 1.5 mm. What do you think? Do you have any advice?

Bethany, if you get blood pricks with the .25 mm, maybe it is because your skin is delicate and the needles reached the middle layer, which contains blood vessels - you may not need longer needles to stimulate collagen production... But these are just my thoughts after the first 51 pages...
Lowbrowscientist
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Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:53 pm      Reply with quote
Mishey, I agree with Keliu - it looks like you did a great job!

I'm sitting here with Super T and saran wrap on my face, preparing for my first full-face roll with the 1.5mm needles. Even though I've rolled before, I'm actually quite nervous about using the longer needles all over my face. But, I really want to get the results, so I'm going to see how it goes. I wanted to do this earlier in the day per Tao's excellent ideas on minimizing damage, and was actually planning to do it on Sunday to give myself more down time before seeing people, but life got in the way.

I'll be taking pictures, and I'll post anything that might be noteworthy.

Wish me luck, kids Smile
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Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:07 pm      Reply with quote
Lowbrow, let's know how the Super T worked for you and best of luck!

Mishey I'd say that's a very successful roll, you must have used the entire tube of Emla Very Happy

Speaking of Emla...I did a targeted roll today around the mouth area and used Emla. The last time I used it I wasn't impressed, I didn't feel it numbed me enough. Today I left it on for over an hour with Saran Wrap on top and WOW, I didn't feel a thing Shock I mustn't have left it on long enough previously. I was able to roll really aggressively and produced more blood than ever. I'm only sorry I didn't do my entire face. Oh well, next time... Rolling Eyes
Mabsy
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Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:17 pm      Reply with quote
I never ended up telling you ladies what happened with my first dermarolling experience... Smile

This was at the time when I was really stressed out at work, not getting enough sleep, and also not having enough time to carefully read through the wonderful advice of EDS members. Nevertheless, I did have enough time to scan threads here and pick out new things to try - and the dermaroller was one of those things. Of course, as any self respecting skincare addict, I decided that I'd get not one but two - so I got a .25 and a 1.

My skin at the time was a mess, partially due to stress and poor diet and partially due to simply not having the time to take good care of it. So, when the dermarollers arrived I decided to make a resolution to take good care of my skin no matter how little sleep I was getting.

At least I had the brains to start with the .25 model, I can't say I had the brains for anything else that followed Smile I used the dermaroller one (gently) and applied vitamin C serum before and afterwards. So far so good, no particular problems though no immediate results (obviously). I decided that since my skin was so congested it would be a fantastic idea (this is where intelligence went out the window you see) to use an AHA/BHA product (namely Jan Marini Bioglycolic Bioclear) with the dermaroller. Hmmm... I applied the JM and then gently rolled with the dermaroller. There was some stinging but nothing too serious. So, clever me, decided to roll a bit harder and then apply JM again afterwards... Not so clever after all!

The last time I remember something stinging close to this bad was with my little Dermalogica Microfoliant "incident" (some of you will remember that one from a few years back Smile). It stung so bad that I didn't know what to do with myself. Eventually that subsided, and all was good.

The interesting thing that happened afterwards is what shows me that the dermarollers really do actually do what they say in terms of product absorption. My face over the following week got red and flaky like never before! I couldn't wear MMU because every single flake was visible. It continued to peel for a while, and even the week after there was still some flakyness remaining.

After that "incident", I have to be honest and say that I have not tried the dermaroller again. I will use it every so often with vit C or other products, but never again with AHA/BHA...

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Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:32 pm      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
Mishey, I agree with Keliu - it looks like you did a great job!


Yep...I agree!!!

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Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:45 pm      Reply with quote
Luciana wrote:
My conclusions so far:
- it seems that Dr. Roller is the favorite
- 1.5 mm is good for collagen stimulation and not severe wrinkles
- .5 mm (or less) is OK to be used more frequently (daily or every 2 days) for product penetration
- for the vertical upper lip wrinkles, someone said the 1 mm is better and Bethany posted an article about drs that used the 1 mm and 3 mm on lip lines.
- the 3line is better for use in the eye area

Am I correct?

So, I am thinking to get three rollers from Dr. Roller, a .5 mm, a 3line 1 mm, and a 1.5 mm. What do you think? Do you have any advice?



Luciana,

Someone has been doing some reading!

- A 1.5 roller will work on severe wrinkles, and the 1.0mm works on finer wrinkles. People with lower pain tolerances are better off starting with the 1.0mm and working up to the 1.5mm as you skin gets slightly more accustomed to the pain over time.

- A .5 is actually not recommended by the 2 inventors for product penetration, nor used that frequently. (only the Asian knockoffs include directions saying that). The baby .15mm and the .25mm are your best bests for product penetration AND limiting your ongoing inflammation. (dr-roller.eu carries both of them)

- The 3Line is probably the best option for the lips (and the eyes) as it allows you much more flexibility in placement, and a 1.0mm 3Line pentrates deeper than a wider 1.0mm roller. However, if you do have deeper lip lines, I would go for the 1.5mm if you can handle the pain...otherwise work up from the 1.0mm 3line.

I would personally get the .15mm, the 1.0mm 3Line and the 1.5mm Dr. Roller (or the 1.0mm if you have a lower tolerance for pain).

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Lowbrowscientist
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Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:49 pm      Reply with quote
anya wrote:
Lowbrow, let's know how the Super T worked for you and best of luck!


Thanks - I needed that luck! Smile

I'm getting ready to jump ion the shower, but I will say, briefly, that the Emla is far superior to the Super T and the Super Juice3 (the latter did barely anything at all).

I didn't end up doing my whole face because the pain was just too much! Argh. However, I did do my forehead, the tops of my cheeks, my n/l lines, and even managed around my eyes after putting some Emla around them and waiting about 15 minutes. I'll post some pics later tonight or tomorrow.
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Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:04 pm      Reply with quote
Mabsy wrote:
At least I had the brains to start with the .25 model, I can't say I had the brains for anything else that followed Smile I used the dermaroller one (gently) and applied vitamin C serum before and afterwards. So far so good, no particular problems though no immediate results (obviously). I decided that since my skin was so congested it would be a fantastic idea (this is where intelligence went out the window you see) to use an AHA/BHA product (namely Jan Marini Bioglycolic Bioclear) with the dermaroller. Hmmm... I applied the JM and then gently rolled with the dermaroller. There was some stinging but nothing too serious. So, clever me, decided to roll a bit harder and then apply JM again afterwards... Not so clever after all!

The last time I remember something stinging close to this bad was with my little Dermalogica Microfoliant "incident" (some of you will remember that one from a few years back Smile). It stung so bad that I didn't know what to do with myself. Eventually that subsided, and all was good.


Oh my...I can only imagine the pain! I'm just glad that it had a happy ending. Smile

But people really need to be careful rolling in anything like that...the additional depth penetration for the stronger products can result in some post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation. We have already had one EDS member encounter that from using a TCA peel with the dermaroller. Sad

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Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:28 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
But people really need to be careful rolling in anything like that...the additional depth penetration for the stronger products can result in some post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation. We have already had one EDS member encounter that from using a TCA peel with the dermaroller. Sad


Agree. Also, don't forget that we don't know the effects of using the dermaroller with a lot of topicals. Meaning, we don't know with some topicals if we want to push them in for deeper penetration or not.
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:52 am      Reply with quote
- A .5 is actually not recommended by the 2 inventors for product penetration, nor used that frequently. (only the Asian knockoffs include directions saying that). The baby .15mm and the .25mm are your best bests for product penetration AND limiting your ongoing inflammation. (dr-roller.eu carries both of them)

Bethany,

Why is the 0.5mm dermaroller NOT recommended from product penetration?
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:15 am      Reply with quote
Thanks everyone, I really think this roll will be a good one. It's the deepest I've done so far. And so far my chest seems fine. Last time I did my chest I broke out in a massive rash, but I used retin A soon after the roll. This time I've put the retin A on 24 hours later. And I've just noticed you can see the dots all over my shoulders from the roll I'd done alittle earlier.

Looking forward to seeing your pics Lowbrowscientist.

Mabsy I don't blame you for not rolling again after that. Shock
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:26 pm      Reply with quote
Here are a few pics - The track lines are more defined around the eyes this time, less actual bruising (so far).

This was taken a few minutes post-roll:

Image

These are both from today:

Image

Image

I'm somewhat disappointed... my results are similar to the last time, but I feel that I wasn't able to roll intensely enough and I don't know that this roll will do much good. I thought I was pretty thorough with the marionette lines but they don't look that bad today. I'm not sure if that means I didn't hit them hard enough, or if they just generally aren't going to look as bad as other areas.

I'm definitely sticking with the Emla next time, to start with, but I'm going to give the Super Juice 3 another shot to help keep things numb *during* the roll.
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:31 pm      Reply with quote
gumgirl wrote:
- A .5 is actually not recommended by the 2 inventors for product penetration, nor used that frequently. (only the Asian knockoffs include directions saying that). The baby .15mm and the .25mm are your best bests for product penetration AND limiting your ongoing inflammation. (dr-roller.eu carries both of them)

Bethany,

Why is the 0.5mm dermaroller NOT recommended from product penetration?


Gumgirl, I could be wrong about this but as I recall, the .5 is not recommended simply because it's unneccessary(sp? we so need a spell-check..) to go so deep for product penetration, OR for thickening the epidermis, and it's not long enough to stimulate collagen growth.

I'm sure someone else will chime in here if I'm wrong. I have a dermarolling folder with most of this information saved, but it's on my husband's laptop and I'm on the desktop at the moment. I'll check it later and verify this if no one else beats me to it.
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:19 pm      Reply with quote
Here's some info on what the various sizes of rollers are for from the Nova Clinic, sellers of the Dr. Roller: http://www.dermarollers.com/order.html

1) 0.25 Needle Length – For thinning and greying hair and better penetration of skin care products.

2) 0.5 Needle Length - For baldness, face/skin regeneration, removing wrinkles, sun damage and anti-aging.

3) 1.0 Needle Length – For cellulite and stretch mark fade and removal, skin pigmentation problems, regeneration.

4) 1.5 Needle Length – For deep scars, pitted skin, open pores, burns, surgery scars, acne scars and deep wrinkles.


This is from the Dermaroller website:
http://www.dermarollers.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1

0.25mm
Increased penetration of skin care products into the skin and overall improvement of skin color and texture, thinning hair

0.5mm
Increased penetration, less invasive CIT. Alopecia, wrinkles, mild pigmentation, general skin rejuvenation


1.0mm, 1.5mm
Standard CIT. Acne/chicken pox scars, stretch marks, wrinkles, elasticity decline, cellulite, pigmentation

2.0mm, 2.5mm, 3.0mm
More aggressive CIT for more severe cases, deep scars and wrinkles, rejuvenation of ruined skin
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:49 pm      Reply with quote
And from http://www.dermaroller.de/en/science/percutanous-delivery.html

The Dermaroller™ C-8 (Cosmetic type), consists of a 12cm handle at the end of which lies a cylinder, like a small paint-roller, of 2cm diameter and 2cm length. On the surface of the cylinder, 24 circular arrays of 8 needles each (total 192 needles) are found, with a needle length of only 0.13mm (130 µm).
Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance applied on the skin will gain access to the deeper and viable skin layers. The size is of the needles is more than enough to pierce the stratum corneum and allow increase in absorption of almost 10,000-fold compared to simple application to skin, but are small enough to be absolutely painless on the skin.

The Dermaroller™ C-8HE (Cosmetic model for hair-bearing surfaces, scalp - later named: Model M03) has the same size and amount of needles with the Dermaroller C-8, but the needle length is 0.3mm (300 µm). This length is still below the pain threshold, as it will be later demonstrated.

The Dermaroller™ CIT-8 (CIT: Collagen Induction Therapy, Medical model) has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 0.5mm (500 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates deeper micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance we apply on the skin will gain access to even deeper and viable skin layers. On the same time, controlled, minuscule trauma is caused to the dermis, which reacts physiologically by producing collagen. The exact mechanisms of action are described later.

The Dermaroller™ MF-8 has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 1.5mm (1500µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates even deeper micro-channels on the whole epidermis and dermis. At the same time, these longer needles will destroy scar collagen bundles, atrophic stretch marks or cellulitis bundles (orange skin).

The Dermaroller™ MS-4 is the only Dermaroller that has a smaller cylinder, 1cm length, 2cm diameter, and subsequently 4 circular arrays of needles (total 96 needles). It has the same needle length like the MF-8 model, that is 1.5mm (1500µm), it has the same indications of use like the MF-8 but mostly on areas where precision and deeper penetration is required. It is mostly used on facial acne scars.
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:59 pm      Reply with quote
I prefer to go with what the experts in the field recommend...the inventors (as opposed to just resellers). Here is the recommendation from Dr. Liebl:

Quote:
The Dermaroller™ consists of a series of devices, which have both cosmetic and medical applications. Their mechanism of action is through the painless piercing of the stratum corneum of the epidermis and the subsequent tremendous increase in absorption of every substance one might apply on the human skin.

The Dermaroller™ C-8 (Cosmetic type), consists of a 12cm handle at the end of which lies a cylinder, like a small paint-roller, of 2cm diameter and 2cm length. On the surface of the cylinder, 24 circular arrays of 8 needles each (total 192 needles) are found, with a needle length of only 0.13mm (130 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance applied on the skin will gain access to the deeper and viable skin layers. The size is of the needles is more than enough to pierce the stratum corneum and allow increase in absorption of almost 10,000-fold compared to simple application to skin, but are small enough to be absolutely painless on the skin.

The Dermaroller™ C-8HE (Cosmetic model for hair-bearing surfaces, scalp - later named: Model M03) has the same size and amount of needles with the Dermaroller C-8, but the needle length is 0.3mm (300 µm). This length is still below the pain threshold, as it will be later demonstrated.

The Dermaroller™ CIT-8 (CIT: Collagen Induction Therapy, Medical model) has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 0.5mm (500 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates deeper micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance we apply on the skin will gain access to even deeper and viable skin layers. On the same time, controlled, minuscule trauma is caused to the dermis, which reacts physiologically by producing collagen. The exact mechanisms of action are described later.

The Dermaroller™ MF-8 has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 1.5mm (1500µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates even deeper micro-channels on the whole epidermis and dermis. At the same time, these longer needles will destroy scar collagen bundles, atrophic stretch marks or cellulitis bundles (orange skin).

The Dermaroller™ MS-4 is the only Dermaroller that has a smaller cylinder, 1cm length, 2cm diameter, and subsequently 4 circular arrays of needles (total 96 needles). It has the same needle length like the MF-8 model, that is 1.5mm (1500µm), it has the same indications of use like the MF-8 but mostly on areas where precision and deeper penetration is required. It is mostly used on facial acne scars.

http://www.dermaroller.de/us/science/percutanous-delivery.html


But keep in mind that everyone is entitled to their opinion and choices. Pick whatever needle lengths you want!

Granted, everyone scoffed at me when I went the conservative route and chose shorter needles and less frequent rolls. But my crowsfeet are gone, and my VISIA results show that I now have less wrinkles than 99% of women my age. Here is a pic of my skin that I took on Sunday...there is still some pigmentation to deal with, but overall I'm pretty darn happy with the conservative route.

More (and longer) is not always better (at least for me)...YMMV, and best of luck to everyone on whatever choice they make.

Image

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Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:03 pm      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
I'm somewhat disappointed... my results are similar to the last time, but I feel that I wasn't able to roll intensely enough and I don't know that this roll will do much good. I thought I was pretty thorough with the marionette lines but they don't look that bad today. I'm not sure if that means I didn't hit them hard enough, or if they just generally aren't going to look as bad as other areas.


I am sure that you hit them just fine...you always have another chance later! Very Happy And Ageless should definitely help with those too. (which reminds me that I need to go do my exercises!)

BTW, I have to apply some Climax Spray as I roll, because the Emla does wear off faster than I would like.

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Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:32 pm      Reply with quote
I was just trying to demonstrate that the 0.5mm roller does have its uses and shouldn't be disregarded. But I agree, go with a needle length that you feel comfortable with.

Bethany, your results are fantastic - congratulations. I believe my own skin is continuing to improve, although I'm much older than you and in your late fifties it becomes more of an uphill battle. But yesterday I had 2 compliments - the maintenance man in our apartment block asked my husband if I'd had a face lift and another friend of my husband's told me I looked younger. I know I use lots of gadgets (faithfully) but I think my main improvements are down to rolling and using Retin-A.
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:50 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Bethany, your results are fantastic - congratulations. I believe my own skin is continuing to improve, although I'm much older than you and in your late fifties it becomes more of an uphill battle. But yesterday I had 2 compliments - the maintenance man in our apartment block asked my husband if I'd had a face lift and another friend of my husband's told me I looked younger. I know I use lots of gadgets (faithfully) but I think my main improvements are down to rolling and using Retin-A.


Thanks, Keliu!

And if 2 MEN (notably NOT the most detail oriented!!) noticed that you are looking awesome, you must be having some great results!

And I totally agree with you on the differing approaches that various websites portray.

Unfortunately, it seems like the following happens far too often:
- Members jump on the bandwagon in and order the longest needles possible
- They do no research, so they have no idea how collagen regeneration REALLY works
- They roll too frequently, apply all kinds of stuff to their face, experience all kinds of irritation, and then complain that they see no positive results. OR
- They roll too frequently but NOT intensely enough, and then complain that they see no results.
- Then they stop rolling because they didn't see results

If people would just educate themselves, and then work up slowly, I think they would be far more successful. Instead, we have over enthusiastic people who confuse skin regeneration with resurfacing a road. It gets rather disheartening after a while.

Ok...I am off my soap box. I think I need a break! Very Happy

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Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:53 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Here is a pic of my skin that I took on Sunday... Image


Good lord, Bethany, you look stunning!

Keliu, if two different men on random occasions noticed your skin (of all things - as Beth noted, they are NOT exactly observant about these things), you must be looking pretty amazing Very Happy

This roll last night was only my second roll with longer needles so I have a few months before I even start looking for results. But, I will be adding a low dose (.025%, to start with) of Retin-a once or twice weekly, whichever my skin can handle, and plan to upgrade from 302 C Boost to 302 Lightening Drops for post-roll use. Hopefully this will enhance my rolling efforts.

I've had problems in the past with retin-a, but it was at a higher concentration and nightly use so I think I'll be fine this time if I start off slowly. But, I've read that Renova causes less irritation. Is there any reason why people aren't using that instead? Would it give me the same results? I haven't been able to find any information on Renova and collagen generation, only Retin-a.
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:24 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:



The baby .15mm and the .25mm are your best bests for product penetration AND limiting your ongoing inflammation.

...

I would personally get the .15mm, the 1.0mm 3Line and the 1.5mm Dr. Roller (or the 1.0mm if you have a lower tolerance for pain).


Thank you, Bethany. Great advice. If .15 mm works for product penetration, I will go for this one. I will be more likely to use it regularly and long-term use is the most important thing.
What wonderful skin you have! Congratulations!

After reading what Mabsy said about her experience with the .25 mm, I might get only one roller, a .15 mm, see how it goes, what is my pain tolerance and go from there. I will have to do some thinking...but tomorrow. After all, tomorrow is another day (Scarlett O'Hara).

It is nice of you, ladies, to share your knowledge and experience. It is very useful for novices as myself. I also hope you understand my English, it is not my first language, not the second either.
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Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:27 pm      Reply with quote
Luciana wrote:
Thank you, Bethany. Great advice. If .15 mm works for product penetration, I will go for this one. I will be more likely to use it regularly and long-term use is the most important thing.
What wonderful skin you have! Congratulations!

After reading what Mabsy said about her experience with the .25 mm, I might get only one roller, a .15 mm, see how it goes, what is my pain tolerance and go from there. I will have to do some thinking...but tomorrow. After all, tomorrow is another day (Scarlett O'Hara).

It is nice of you, ladies, to share your knowledge and experience. It is very useful for novices as myself. I also hope you understand my English, it is not my first language, not the second either.


Luciana, I think that is a great plan...start slow 2-3 times a week and work up.

And I NEVER would have guessed that English is not your first language...Many people here only speak English, and your grammar is MUCH better than theirs, so CONGRATS!

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Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:37 pm      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
bethany wrote:
Here is a pic of my skin that I took on Sunday... Image


Good lord, Bethany, you look stunning!

I will be adding a low dose (.025%, to start with) of Retin-a once or twice weekly, whichever my skin can handle, and plan to upgrade from 302 C Boost to 302 Lightening Drops for post-roll use. Hopefully this will enhance my rolling efforts.

I've had problems in the past with retin-a, but it was at a higher concentration and nightly use so I think I'll be fine this time if I start off slowly. But, I've read that Renova causes less irritation. Is there any reason why people aren't using that instead? Would it give me the same results? I haven't been able to find any information on Renova and collagen generation, only Retin-a.


Thanks!!! I very much appreciate the compliment. ((hugs))

Renova is in a more emollient base, and does contain some subtle fragance that Retin A does not. However, the emollient base can cause some people to break out, so I avoid using it on my face.

I personally worked up from 1x a week to 3x a week with Retin A .05% cream, and now use another retinol product on non Retin A nights (I am not sure I am sold on the Dr. Huber theory of rotating active because I can't find anything to substantiate it). ViterolA might be one to consider...it is cheap, and you can get it for 30% off at skincarerx. (pm me for the code if you need it). I am trialing it on my arms right now.

The .25% is also a good choice...they show that you can get almost the same results as with the .05%, but with less irritation.

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Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:10 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
(I am not sure I am sold on the Dr. Huber theory of rotating active because I can't find anything to substantiate it).


I've been wondering about this too, especially this year while I'm rolling and I want to be able to use A and C on a regular basis. Thanks for the tip on the ViterolA, let us know how that works. I actually like the A Boost a lot, though, and will probably reorder that when my current stash is gone. It is, to date, the only A product that doesn't cause me any irritation and really makes my skin look better every time I use it.

What I *love* about 302 is that it doesn't depend on complicated am and pm routines, though, so I will probably still rotate actives anyway, when it's all said and done.

I just stocked up on Retin A at alldaychemist and didn't think to see if they had any vitamin C products there.
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