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DermaRoller

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critic
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Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:19 am      Reply with quote
Email 2:

HI

The dermaroller is manufactured in Korea, excellent medical grade quality.

Yes you can use the roller before applying your Obagi Nuderm and Retin-A.

Regards Nova Clinic
critic
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Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:19 am      Reply with quote
Email 1 : I asked if the roller is made in USA.

Hi

No the dermaroller is manufactured in Asia.

Regards Nova Clinic
critic
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Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:21 am      Reply with quote
I have a question, summarize to what you have discussed in this topic, which brand is the best to buy?

I am Asian, I would like to buy one which is made in the US or in Europe.
rileygirl
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Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:24 pm      Reply with quote
Be careful using the dermaroller while on Nu Derm. If you are flaky and dry already, this will make it worse. I definitely would not do it if your skin is irritated in the slightest. I don't think it is a good idea, but that is just my personal opinion.
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Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Be careful using the dermaroller while on Nu Derm. If you are flaky and dry already, this will make it worse. I definitely would not do it if your skin is irritated in the slightest. I don't think it is a good idea, but that is just my personal opinion.


That's what I think, but on the other hand, if it is OK to use with roller, it will absorb 90+%, I thought can accelerate the progress... Just my thought, but I think I won't try it now.

I actually want one for my pregnancy stretch mark.
tessera
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:01 am      Reply with quote
P Girl wrote:
I know absolutely nothing about Obagi, but MANY, if not most, of us use Retin-A while rolling.


Having done a little further research, I wanted to offer some information to be considered by people who are using Retin-A immediately after rolling, instead of a milder retinol (as used by D. Fernandes, one of the developers of the CIT procedure).http://www.vivida.co.za/prof_surgical

Retinoic acid (RA), the active derivative of vitamin A, is an important signaling molecule that controls various developmental processes and influences the proliferation and differentiation of a variety of cell types... [O]veractivated RA signaling is deleterious to liver homeostasis.
Trim24 (Tif1 alpha): an essential 'brake' for retinoic acid-induced transcription to prevent liver cancer. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19029830?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed

Oral consumption of Vit. A and synthetic retinoids can be neurotoxic, causing symptoms that include headache, pseudotumor cerebri, irritability, ataxia, fatigue, depression, and psychosis [5-9]
Neurotoxicity Related to the Use of Topical Tretinoin (Retin-A)
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/124/2/227
Ordinarily (that is, without dermarolling), the degree of topical tretinoin absorption through intact skin is reported to be less than 5% [3]. http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/124/2/227 This 5% absorption rate does not usually cause deleterious side effects (although it can). Even at that level, it can cause both hepatotoxicity and neurotoxicity in persons with some level of existing liver dysfunction. Physicians should use caution in prescribing topical retinoids for patients who have known or potential hepatic dysfunction. http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/124/2/227

Liver dysfunction (and possibly liver enlargement) due to Retin-A use can be asymptomatic. http://www.askdocweb.com/retin-a38.html Therefore blood tests are required to detect these side effects. Furthermore, emerging medical evidence indicates that “the hepatotoxic action of isotretinoin [Accutane] [and related retinoids, including Retin-A] can cause ... elevations in serum cholesterol and muscle pain and weakness” as well as abnormalities in liver function. Physicians prescribing retinoids are advised to monitor liver enzymes, blood lipids and carnitine levels and to request that patients report any adverse symptoms characteristic of retinoid toxicity. Herb, nutrient, and drug interactions
By Mitchell Bebel Stargrove, Jonathan Treasure, Dwight L.
http://books.google.com/books?id=49kLK--eumEC&pg=PA666&lpg=PA666&dq=liver+enzymes+%22retin+A+%22+-retina&source=bl&ots=gjhettwv8h&sig=WZmpMLEGzlBAfuCUHrL-zwheqjE&hl=en&ei=rHfPSfy0DI37nQel2vzHCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA666,M1

It seems to me that application of Retin-A to skin that has been rolled, thereby increasing its absorption by an unknown percentage, will also increase the risk of developing the above-referenced side effects, several of which cannot be detected without blood tests. Why take the chance of hepatotoxicity and neurotoxicity, when the milder form, retinol, will support collagenesis? This is not a rhetorical question. I really am curious as to why someone would take an apparent increased risk of harm for no proven increase in benefit. But perhaps my assumption is premature: Does anyone have any scientific evidence regarding the effects of applying retin-A (versus retinol) to freshly rolled skin?

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rileygirl
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:39 am      Reply with quote
tessera wrote:
It seems to me that application of Retin-A to skin that has been rolled, thereby increasing its absorption by an unknown percentage, will also increase the risk of developing the above-referenced side effects, several of which cannot be detected without blood tests. Why take the chance of hepatotoxicity and neurotoxicity, when the milder form, retinol, will support collagenesis?


That would also be my concern with rolling the Hydroquinone. It would increase the absorption by an unknown percent, and no one knows what potential harm that could cause. (Tessera, I will say that I saw where Dr. Fernandes did recommend Retin A or the milder form if one could not handle Retin A, but I can't remember which of the documents had that info in it.)
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:16 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
That would also be my concern with rolling the Hydroquinone. It would increase the absorption by an unknown percent, and no one knows what potential harm that could cause. (Tessera, I will say that I saw where Dr. Fernandes did recommend Retin A or the milder form if one could not handle Retin A, but I can't remember which of the documents had that info in it.)


Hi rileygirl,I was thinking the same thing about the possible effects of increased HQ absorption, but haven't researched it. I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Fernandes recommended Retin-A post-roll, as physicians have been known to recommend procedures and drugs without being fully informed as to the potential risks, some of which may not have been discovered at the time the recommendation was made. (Thalidomide and Thermage come immediately to mind.) I suppose my point as to Dr. Fernandes was that he believes retinol works well enough to include it in his regular post-roll treatment protocol. I would address the same inquiry to him,and ask for scientific evidence that the post-roll use of retin-A is substantially more efficacious than retinol, without increased risk of deleterious side effects. I just haven't found any studies on that. As consumers, it's our job to be informed and apply critical analysis to the information available. My advice is: Let's be careful with our bodies, they're the only ones we've got! Smile

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rileygirl
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:06 am      Reply with quote
tessera wrote:
As consumers, it's our job to be informed and apply critical analysis to the information available. My advice is: Let's be careful with our bodies, they're the only ones we've got! Smile


I definitely agree with you!
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:43 am      Reply with quote
tessera, you've brought up some good points. Would you be a dear and ask Dr. F about this and report back to us on it?

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tessera
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:56 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
tessera, you've brought up some good points. Would you be a dear and ask Dr. F about this and report back to us on it?


Very sweetly put, but nope, I'll have to pass. Last time someone asked me to write an inquiry letter, I did so and then received an ex post facto editorial critique of my writing skills, which made me cranky. Mad I don't use retin-A post-roll for the reasons I've already discussed, and because it had a negative effect on my liver enzymes when I used to use it daily. I'll leave it to someone who wants to use it post-roll to write the letter. But thanks for asking!

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foxe
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:24 pm      Reply with quote
Tessera – I have read much of what you have posted here on the links and me thinks you are a bit of a worrier. Much of what has been posted has to do with ORAL retinoids, or isotretinoin (Accutane). Accutane is a very serious drug and a patient has to follow many guidelines to be able to participate in a treatment regime of it. Monthly doctor visits w/ monthly blood tests are required and all of these things are covered with those requirements. Someone who has a liver disfunction would be ruled out of participating in an Accutane regime, but it is an important point, none the less.

Having said that, I also noted that you took some of the quotes out of context, adding your own comments (in parenthesis or brackets) to provide disparaging information with regards to TOPICAL tretinoin (Retin A). While you may be very concerned with using Retin A with a roller, please consider how you present information for others. This comment:
Quote:
Liver dysfunction (and possibly liver enlargement) due to Retin-A use can be asymptomatic. http://www.askdocweb.com/retin-a38.html
actually linked to this comment: AskDocWeb: Retin-A has been reported to cause a change in liver enzymes but not damage, ….

And this comment:
Quote:
“Furthermore, emerging medical evidence indicates that “the hepatotoxic action of isotretinoin [Accutane] [and related retinoids, including Retin-A] can cause ... elevations in serum cholesterol and muscle pain and weakness” as well as abnormalities in liver function.”
Actually appeared as this “The hepatotoxic action of isotretinoin can cause abnormalities in liver function, as well as elevations in serum cholesterol and muscle pain and weakness. ...” with no addition of “related retinoids, including Retin A”.



Please be careful with information you share with us here on EDS.

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Mishey
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:59 pm      Reply with quote
Well I just want to say that I do use retin A post roll. BUT, I don't use anything at all immediately post roll, but that evening.(Quite a few hours later) The holes have already started healing over by then.
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:18 pm      Reply with quote
After reading the forums a bit more, I am going to become a rollergirl w/ the .25 mm roller. Smile Baby steps for me. Laughing I want it for product absorbtion mainly for now, just to test it now. Does anyone know a reputable place to purchase one? I've seen one for $19.99 for the .25 economy Dermaroller, or are there better quality ones? Also, from what I read, the .25 is safe to use twice daily before my products?
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Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:47 pm      Reply with quote
Here is the thread that contains a mine of information and numerous articles on Dermarolling. I have not re-read all the articles, but I'm sure that somewhere amongst them all is info on the use of Retin-A and the Dermaroller.

In addition, here is something from the Dr. Dermacare site:

http://www.drdermacare.co.nz/acne-scarring.html

Benefits of the homecare dermaroller when used in conjunction with active substances:

. The process is entirely natural
. Dramatically increases the penetration of your skincare products and treatments.
. Reduces appearance of fine lines and wrinkles
. Visibly reduces scarring, sun damage and pigmentation
. Skin becomes thicker and healthier
. The process is pain free
. There is no damage to the skin
. Supports collagen and elastin repair
. It can be used on all areas of the face, neck and body
. It is cost-effective, lasts hundreds of applications
. To find out more about the dermaroller or acne scarring please visitwww.dermaroller.co.nz

Retin-A
Retin-A is a derivative of Vitamin A that is applied to the skin and used to treat acne and other skin problems. Retin-A works by increasing skin cell turnover. Retin A is also the only topical medication that has been proven to improve wrinkles. Retin-A is also used for the treatment of brown spots, roughness and photodamage (damage caused by long term exposure to the skin)

Side Effects of Retin-A
The effect of increased skin cell turnover can be irritation and flaking. For this reason, many people stop using Retin-A after a couple of days to weeks, then think that it didn’t work. It is important to realize that it may take several months to see a noticeable difference. You will however enhance your results if you use Retin A with our dermaroller. Retin-A is applied at night before bedtime. A sunscreen should be used during the day to protect your skin.


I have been using Retin-A along with the Dermaroller for about 18 months. I have had no adverse effects at all - however, my skin does peel for about 2-3 days when I apply Retin-A directly post rolling.

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Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:18 am      Reply with quote
Oh yeah, one more question (sorry!). I know a lot of you use the roller for stretch marks, does it help for the white ones? I have REALLY bad white stretch marks all over hips/sides of butts from growing too fast when I was younger, and they are horribly ugly. What mm size roller should I get for this, and how often to use it? Thanks!
tessera
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:00 am      Reply with quote
Dear foxe,

I have no desire to get into a lengthy debate, but I will defend my presentation of material to the forum. Your comments are addressed individually below:

1.
foxe wrote:
Tessera – I have read much of what you have posted here on the links and me thinks you are a bit of a worrier.

I understand that it is part of human nature to attack the messenger when one does not like the message, but it is not conducive to the free exchange of information. Please try to control your baser instincts.

2 Much of what has been posted has to do with ORAL retinoids, or isotretinoin (Accutane).

The implication that the information does not pertain to topical retinoids is flat out wrong. The only citation I made that related to Accutane is the one to Herb, nutrient, and drug interactions
By Mitchell Bebel Stargrove, Jonathan Treasure, Dwight L. That article also references Retin-A. The other citations were specifically related to topical tretinoin or Retin-A.

3 Having said that, I also noted that you took some of the quotes out of context, adding your own comments (in parenthesis or brackets) to provide disparaging information with regards to TOPICAL tretinoin (Retin A).

Quotes must, by their nature, be taken out of context, otherwise one would have to quote the entire article. I included citations so that everyone could read the articles in their entirety and draw their own conclusions. Congratulations on doing so, although you appear to have made several errors of analysis, as discussed above and below. As for “disparaging” Retin-A, I actually love the stuff and use it regularly, but cautiously. It is categorized as a prescription drug for a reason. I find it curious that you describe a discussion of potential side effects as “disparaging.”

4. While you may be very concerned with using Retin A with a roller, please consider how you present information for others. This comment:
Quote:
Liver dysfunction (and possibly liver enlargement) due to Retin-A use can be asymptomatic. http://www.askdocweb.com/retin-a38.html
actually linked to this comment: AskDocWeb: Retin-A has been reported to cause a change in liver enzymes but not damage, ….


I made a statement of fact and supported it with a citation. I did not reference the comment that damage has not been reported because damage has in fact been reported. E.g Neurotoxicity Related to the Use of Topical Tretinoin (Retin-A) Of course, it is always possible that you do not consider neurotoxicity to be damage.


5. And this comment:
Quote:
“Furthermore, emerging medical evidence indicates that “the hepatotoxic action of isotretinoin [Accutane] [and related retinoids, including Retin-A] can cause ... elevations in serum cholesterol and muscle pain and weakness” as well as abnormalities in liver function.”
Actually appeared as this “The hepatotoxic action of isotretinoin can cause abnormalities in liver function, as well as elevations in serum cholesterol and muscle pain and weakness. ...” with no addition of “related retinoids, including Retin A”.


Your selective reading skills are impressive. I refer you to the first paragraph of the section cited, which states:
“Evidence: Isotretinoin (13-cis retinoic acid; Accutane).
Extrapolated, based on similar properties: Acitretin (Soriatane), bexarotene (Targretin), etretinate (Tegison), tretinoin (All-Trans-Retinoic Acid, ATRA, Atragen, Avita, Renova, Retin-A, Vesanoid, Vitinoin).”

If you know what “extrapolated” means, then you know that the authors are presenting their information as applicable to both Accutane and Retin-A.

6. Please be careful with information you share with us here on EDS.


I am absolutely careful with the information I post. That is why every statement of purported fact that I make is supported by a citation to supporting evidence. I would ask you to be equally careful regarding your criticism, which contains several mistakes of fact and mischaracterizations. If you have access to any studies that examine the effects of increased Retin-A absorption, I’d be interested in reading them.

I have to say, I thought I was doing people a service by providing the information we’ve been discussing, if only to let them know what to look out for in the way of potential side-effects. However, if no one wants to hear it, I’ll save some time and retire to my previous non-contributory lurker status, a sadder but wiser former poster.
Confused

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ace243
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:43 am      Reply with quote
hey i just wanted to post a before & after pic,for some reason when i uploaded the pic it looks kinda warped (at least on my computer)I'm trying to fix it. my main concern is my stretch marks but it the process of trying to fix them,something I'm doing is making my skin look amazing.i waited a while to post it to see if the results would stay and they are.

i don't know if its the Shea butter/olive oil mix alone but i do know it has a lot to do with it(i think all natural shea butter has vitamin A & E in it naturally). (it also seemed to tone down my breakouts) i posted my routine a few pages ago but ill post it again if anyone has any questions.

and this is without rolling,(i haven't been able to get a new one yet)my face is really soft & has a glow to it now.and my forehead wrinkle and number 11(that was starting to form from stress) & mouth lines are lessened.

Before on the Left After on the Right

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/ace2434/sheabutterface2.jpg">
ace243
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:46 am      Reply with quote
it wouldnt come up so heres the link


http://www.geocities.com/ace2434/sheabutterface.jpg
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:54 am      Reply with quote
Beautiful! Smile

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Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:50 pm      Reply with quote
ace243 wrote:
it wouldnt come up so heres the link


http://www.geocities.com/ace2434/sheabutterface.jpg


I don't see anything on the before picture that you would need to fix! You're very pretty.
Ella's Mommy
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:13 pm      Reply with quote
okay... so i started to peel friday. Even though it doesn't hurt it looks really raw. how long does that normally last?

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Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:54 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
ace243 wrote:
it wouldnt come up so heres the link


http://www.geocities.com/ace2434/sheabutterface.jpg


I don't see anything on the before picture that you would need to fix! You're very pretty.


I'm w/ ou Rileygirl - both pics are LOVELY -

tessera - thanks for taking the time to post that R-A/A info - it was generous and thoughtful...
now to the point
HELP!?
I've got a question that i think i know the answer to but i'm hoping someone will tell me otherwise.
I'm due for my 3rd roll, however, i have stopped using RA because i am using 302 skincare products (i am usuing 302 C, but not the A (not in the budget)). What do the veterans (if there are still any around) think about rolling having not used RA for the past month.
-Should i hold off till i have A in my system for 2 weeks
-do you think it would be effective to roll (say tomorrow) and use RA post roll 2x per week for a few weeks
-will any decent results be negated because i'm not using A...basically, is it a waste of my time if i've not been using A for at least 2 weeks before roll..
thanks for any advice/recommendations
(obvously i'm jonzn' to roll, but i can allow sound advice to permeate)
thanks in advance
m
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:26 pm      Reply with quote
Moongoddess, I am no expert, but the article by Dr. Fernandes states he likes to have his patients on A and C 1 to 3 months before needling. Just something for you to think about!
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:15 pm      Reply with quote
thanks riley girl!

Embarassed i knew that...i knww the answer to the question i asked...BUT STILL i asked it! (in the hopes that maybe just maybe...)go figure...
uuggh,i'm really kickin' myself for dropping RA for the past month...i guess time just flew by and i kept putting off the 302 A--okay, next roll April 30th!! give/take
m
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