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Barefootgirl
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Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:19 am      Reply with quote
<< think the main problem many people face is not obvious inflammation, but rather microinflammation, which is not visible to the naked eye.... this is how rollers get into trouble, they can't even see the damage until late in the game.

Does this result from rolling too frequently, too aggressively or possibly, both?

As a long time retinoid user, my understanding is that I need to produce enough inflammation to make the product effective (inflammation defined as increasing cell turnover) but not so much or so often that I produce a painful or red skin reaction as this generates oxidation resulting in skin aging.

So to summarize, the key to most of these anti-aging products, solutions as well as devices is to produce "controlled inflammation"..which can be monitored by external signs such as redness, pain, etc.

As far as microinflammation - if you can't see it or feel it - you can only control it by spacing out your rolling sessions?

Have I summarized all of this accurately?

Thank you, BF
Kay2008
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Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:30 am      Reply with quote
Ok so I rolled an area on the left side of my stomach 6 days ago, with "medium" pressure. Then rolled an area on the right side of my stomach 4 days ago, with "hard" pressure (was some blood). Since then I have been applying my Retin A Gel (0.01%) daily, as that's all I have at the moment.
I know it's only been 6/4 days (I am new to this so please forgive me if I sound stupid)... but I'm not really sure what I should be seeing/expecting right now. The areas I have rolled (even the area I rolled quite aggresively) the stretch marks just looks normal (exactly as it did before I rolled) to me. It doesn't look any different at all (not saying it should, as it's early days)... but it's not even red, or inflamed or anything. Is that how it's meant to be? When I rolled, the area was red, but it went away within hours.

Maybe it's because the Retin A I am using is gel and very weak. Maybe once I introduce the higher strength Retin A cream and the Vit C spray it will be different...

Just a bit confused that's all. I know I'm not going to see results in one week, it can take weeks even months. But I thought the area should be red/inflamed for a few days?

Regarding the DIY Vit C spray. Distilled water and LAA - can I just use ordinary tap water? or ordinary Spring bottled water?

Thanks
P Girl
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Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:24 am      Reply with quote
Kay,

You're right--you definitely will not see results this quickly. I also wanted to add that I've rolled my stomach about 3 times and I'm only now (3-4 months in) *starting* to see results on my abdomen. I put starting in stars because while the results are there, they are pretty minimal. I think the skin there is just different somehow and it doesn't respond the same way other skin does--like say on the boobs and arms where I had very quick and amazing results. I'm going to keep after it though and I'm pretty sure eventually it'll respond the way I want it to.

Regarding the visible inflammation, everyone's skin is different. If I roll very aggressively I'll have some (not much) redness and track marks the next day or two, but no discomfort or lasting redness/peeling/anything else unless it's on a body part that rubs against another body part (gross, LOL). I have SM on the back of my knees and that area gets extremely inflamed because of sitting and the skin touching other skin. So on your abdomen, I personally wouldn't expect visible inflammation at this point, though some seem to have it for quite a long time despite where they roll.

I will say that when I roll aggressively I tend to have some redness and track marks for at least the next day. When I say I roll aggressively I mean I'm pushing my roller down as hard as it will go. How aggressively do you think you rolled?

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Barefootgirl
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Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:30 pm      Reply with quote
I went back over the past month's page and wanted to respond to the issue of Retin A and liver toxicity.

Prescription toenail fungus medicine is one example of a drug for which patients are monitored for liver function, but my understanding is that Lamisil (or similar) is applied topically every day.

If liver toxicity from retinoid use remains a concern, call your doctor's office or speak to the nurse handling the hotline for medical practice and get his/her advice.

I think a lot of this dependent on how much and how often and the overall state of your personal health, but it would be worthwhile to disclose if you are using a tool that increases penetration of topical creams/gels.

BF
Kay2008
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Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:06 pm      Reply with quote
P Girl wrote:
Kay,

You're right--you definitely will not see results this quickly. I also wanted to add that I've rolled my stomach about 3 times and I'm only now (3-4 months in) *starting* to see results on my abdomen. I put starting in stars because while the results are there, they are pretty minimal. I think the skin there is just different somehow and it doesn't respond the same way other skin does--like say on the boobs and arms where I had very quick and amazing results. I'm going to keep after it though and I'm pretty sure eventually it'll respond the way I want it to.

Regarding the visible inflammation, everyone's skin is different. If I roll very aggressively I'll have some (not much) redness and track marks the next day or two, but no discomfort or lasting redness/peeling/anything else unless it's on a body part that rubs against another body part (gross, LOL). I have SM on the back of my knees and that area gets extremely inflamed because of sitting and the skin touching other skin. So on your abdomen, I personally wouldn't expect visible inflammation at this point, though some seem to have it for quite a long time despite where they roll.

I will say that when I roll aggressively I tend to have some redness and track marks for at least the next day. When I say I roll aggressively I mean I'm pushing my roller down as hard as it will go. How aggressively do you think you rolled?


Hi,

Thanks for your reply… it sounds as if we experience the same thing on our stomachs (although I have only rolled once compared to your 3 times).

The stretch marks on my tummy are the oldest on my body, they are also the biggest (in length and width). The marks on my belly are at least 8 or 9 years old (all caused through weight gain, no kids here!). I only rolled there to ‘test it out’ as I have never used my roller before even though I have owned it for nearly a year.

The left side I didn’t roll very well, it was my very first go and I was a bit unsure of it all. I didn’t apply really any pressure and felt I didn’t do it very well. So a few days later I tried the right hand side of my stomach, that time I did apply pressure, but not TOO much. So I would say medium pressure… pressing down on the roller, but not hard.
When I did my left breast, I did apply hard pressure, I was pushing down on the roller as hard as I felt I could without causing damage to me or the roller - that’s probably why I got more blood specs than on the right side of my stomach. The area I rolled on my breast has very slight redness to it still (rolled just over 2 days ago), and some bits look like patches of a heat rash (that’s the best way I can describe it).

I will be rolling the stretch marks on my arms once I get the Retin A from ADC and have made my own Vit C serum. Until then I wont try any experiments on them Laughing , like I have my stomach/breast.

I would agree that the stomach area is more hardy than other areas. Since gaining weight my stomach has gotten pretty big Shock (it always does) but no new marks have formed there *touches wood*, but my arms did gain new marks. Maybe the overall skin on ones stomach is “tougher” - so therefore it takes longer to see results, or needs more treatments than more delicate areas would.

Your reply has made me feel better and understand better - I was just unsure about it all.

I hope you don’t mind me asking, but how did you gain your stretch marks? pregnancy? weight gain/loss? puberty? etc. It's ok if you prefer not to answer - tell me to stop asking personal questions! I wont mind.

Also, I cannot quite remember but I’m sure I saw you post once before that you first started using your roller without Retin A or Vit C (it might have just been without the Vit C) and you then said you didn’t start to see real results until you started using Vit C spray?

I really don't know what I'm scared of - but I have a tiny feeling even after receiving my Retin A cream and Vit C I will still put off rolling my arms. I think it's because I am scared I will end up making them worse, or will make them look worse... I tend to get a bit paranoid as you might be able to tell lol.
But thinking about it, what have I got to lose? Might as well give it a try...
If I see results, I might start rolling all over! inner thighs, outter thighs, hips, back of calves, bum......... the list goes on! Laughing Embarassed

Has anyone got any good links/info about how Retin A works? I would like to read up on it. I will do a Google search, but if anyone feels they have any good info they know of then please let me know.

Thanks
P Girl
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Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:12 pm      Reply with quote
Kay,

I'm an open book when it comes to this topic so no, your question wasn't too personal. I'm not a big fan of babies so I've never been pregnant, just fat. LOL...I got my first SM around puberty, was always horrified of them and thought they were SEVERE. I didn't know what severe was until I got on Depo Provera, got married, and gained what seems like 100,001 pounds and 17,345 stretchmarks.

I think you're probably right about the stomach being more hardy. After all, it does have to stretch so much for pregnancy without busting wide open. Hopefully with enough rolls and persistence it will respond!

I started seeing results when I added Retin-A. I rolled a couple times halfheartedly with absolutely no pressure before I started rolling seriously and then started Retin-A a few weeks later and then finally started seeing real results. I'm still not really good about applying my Vit. C so I'm pretty sure my results are not due to the Vit. C. I'm vowing to get better about it though.

Heat rash is the perfect way to describe the residual redness.

The arms definitely hurt more than the abdomen IMO, but it's worth it. I saw improvements within a month. I don't think you'll make them worse at all.

And I know precisely how you feel about having a long list of areas to roll. I often feel like I should hurry up and get every area rolled at least once, but I haven't. I still need to roll my hips and my rear. I'm afraid of rolling the hips. It's overwhelming to feel like I need to just roll around on a bed of dermarollers in order to hit every area.

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Mishey
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Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:57 pm      Reply with quote
P Girl wrote:
Mishey,

What are you rolling your arms for? And have you seen results related to what you're "treating" with the 3 aggressive rolls?


Hi P Girl. I'm rolling my arms for lax, crepey looking skin from sun damage.
I've just noticed lately that the skin seems abit nicer on my arms. As I said this is my 3rd aggressive roll, I did my first on the 16th December. So it seems the results have started to kick in at around the 4 month mark. It was 7 weeks later that I did the second roll, and now 11 weeks later for the third. So it will be interesting to see how they look in another month, and then again in another 4.
Barefootgirl
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Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:02 am      Reply with quote
I have found Hyper C made my Jason Naturals which is an oil based C serum (although water is listed as the first ingredient).

Anyway, I cannot locate in the research articles why an oil based C serum is recommended over a C serum with a water or alcohol or silicone or..base

Does anyone remember the reason for this?

Thanks, BF
Elle2009
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Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:41 pm      Reply with quote
Hi All, hope everybody is well. I did my second roll today body and face and my face is red like tomatoe. I drew some blood on my nose and forehead. I am only using 1mm roller. I also used EMLA and it numbed some areas in my face really well and some not guess I didn't apply it evenly enough. I did apply it well on the top of my lip and left it on for an hour but it was still too painfull to roll with pressure there. I hope to report on improvements in a while especially on the stretchmarks. There has to be an improvement over time right all this pain can't be for nothing... lol

I have a question this was my second roll and like when I did the first roll I felt really low and a little depressed afterwards does anyone else feel like that after rolling?

Thanks a lot Elle
P Girl
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Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:55 pm      Reply with quote
Hey everyone,

After PMing a few who I know are rolling for stretchmarks and receiving a positive response, I'm going to start a Dermarolling for Stretchmarks thread. I feel bad filling up these pages with our endless discussion about stretchmarks when I think a lot of people are doing this for very different reasons and probably tire of wading through our various stretchmark discussions here. I'll definitely still participate in this thread and will read it religiously, but those of us who are fanatics about eliminating stretchmarks seem to be increasing this novel of a thread exponentially. Very Happy

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P Girl
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Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:29 pm      Reply with quote
Elle2009 wrote:


I have a question this was my second roll and like when I did the first roll I felt really low and a little depressed afterwards does anyone else feel like that after rolling?


I haven't ever experienced that. I wonder if it has something to do with the EMLA? Not sure how that would work...

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moongoddess
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Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:15 pm      Reply with quote
P Girl wrote:
Hey everyone,

After PMing a few who I know are rolling for stretchmarks and receiving a positive response, I'm going to start a Dermarolling for Stretchmarks thread. I feel bad filling up these pages with our endless discussion about stretchmarks when I think a lot of people are doing this for very different reasons and probably tire of wading through our various stretchmark discussions here. I'll definitely still participate in this thread and will read it religiously, but those of us who are fanatics about eliminating stretchmarks seem to be increasing this novel of a thread exponentially. Very Happy


that's a brilliant idea, i don't come to this thread much anymore because i have no stretch marks-- still it's dermarolling, so i didn't think much of it...

barefoot girl - you have some good questions, i hope someone actually responds - if i had the info i would...
moongoddess
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Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:25 pm      Reply with quote
P Girl wrote:
Elle2009 wrote:


I have a question this was my second roll and like when I did the first roll I felt really low and a little depressed afterwards does anyone else feel like that after rolling?


I haven't ever experienced that. I wonder if it has something to do with the EMLA? Not sure how that would work...


elle, i didn't feel depressed, but rolling brought up a lot of emotion for me. I have no idea why you are rolling, but i'm doing it for scarring...need i say more. a few thoughts: DR has this bizarre addictive quality (though i've only rolled 2x in 4 months)...i may be pushin' it it here, but it could be a post "high" depression...also,we are rolling our faces (or body) w/ sharp pins -- it's traumatic, and while the end justifies the means -- it could be perceived (somewhere in your psyche/spirit) as masochistic and self-abusive...just a thought

also, the ELMA idea is worth looking in to..
Mishey
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Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:21 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl I read that about the vit c too, but I don't think there was actually a reason given. Not sure about that though.
However I use my DIY C,E and ferulic and that is mostly water based, except the E in it. Maybe they think that MAP works better, I'm not sure. And I think they recommended retinol aswell rather than retin A. Again I use the retin A.
So sorry I'm not much help here. LOL. I'm happy with what I'm using though.
Barefootgirl
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Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:32 am      Reply with quote
I can't believe I managed to read every page in the thread (they really are more than a single page as you all know, it's really several paragraphs of info wrapped around each other)..and every article, some twice.

I think I have a fairly good idea now of what dermarolling is about and am even considering doing an FAQ for people with the same goals as mine -(wrinkle reduction and anti-aging for 40+)

and for example, there are some key questions as I mentioned before:

-can the sweet spot of inflammation be determined from external signs? - or is it an individual case basis (probably some of both!) and can it only be controlled by spacing out the rolling sessions?

- why oil based serums? (more gentle?)

- and last but not least Wink what is this post-roll ooze made of? it is white blood cells escaping through to the surface of the skin? I have never seen an ooze emit from my body before... Wink

I can't believe that after 130+ pages - not much discussion on the ooze LOL (just trying to keep it light here)

BF
MaryClaire
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Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:53 am      Reply with quote
Way to go Barefoot...I'm gearing up to do my first roll also for wrinkles and anti-aging...I have saved a lot of posts but some are older than others and contradict each other.

I'm trying to emulate Bethany's procedure but trying to do it without spending too much on topicals but I do so want to do it the right way.

I do have some more questions...

Has anyone had any success with spider veins?

Should certain precautions be taken before rolling the neck...like a shorter needle than the face because of so little fat on the neck?

Should vitamin A and C be delivered to the skin after several hours after the roll and then not again until 4 or 5 days later so that the inflamation response sets in good?

Thanks!
Mary
Elle2009
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Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:51 pm      Reply with quote
Hi moongoddess, p girl,

I am back to my old self again today but had this low feeling after the first roll without emla and same feeling yesterday with emla so don't think it has to do with emla.

I am a little red today but not too bad and think I am healing nicely. I think its what moongoddess said that we inflict this pain on ourselves its hard for the mind to deal with at least in my case.

FYI I am rolling to improve stretchmark on legs, tummy and boobs and slight facial laxity.

Anyway happy rolling all and keep posting on your progress Smile Elle
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Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:48 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I can't believe that after 130+ pages - not much discussion on the ooze LOL (just trying to keep it light here)

BF


i didn't get any ooze...
bethany
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Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:02 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
-can the sweet spot of inflammation be determined from external signs? - or is it an individual case basis (probably some of both!) and can it only be controlled by spacing out the rolling sessions?


Micro-inflammation at the cellular level is not visible to the naked eye. The experts who do this for a living continue to advocate rolling less frequently (even with 1.0mm rollers), and we have seen that play out here on EDS as well.

Barefootgirl wrote:
- why oil based serums? (more gentle?)


I suspect that is because they do not recommend using ascorbic acid which is water soluble. I personally do not use oil based serums (I use 302), but I do not use acid-based ones either. (I stopped using Retin A). They do recommend the Environ EssentiA Oil product, but I have not looked at the makeup of it to see if it is a true oil-based serum, or a non-oil, non-water serum like 302.


Barefootgirl wrote:
- and last but not least Wink what is this post-roll ooze made of? it is white blood cells escaping through to the surface of the skin? I have never seen an ooze emit from my body before... Wink


This is called serous ooze, and the edema fluid that escapes as the wound closes. It is made up of everything in that fluid, including all the enzymes, etc. that rush to fight off infection and repair the wound.

I always get ooze UNLESS I flush my face well in the shower right after rolling.

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bethany
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Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:09 pm      Reply with quote
MaryClaire wrote:
Should vitamin A and C be delivered to the skin after several hours after the roll and then not again until 4 or 5 days later so that the inflamation response sets in good?


Check out the protocol in this article...I apply my Vit C/Vit A mix about an hour after rolling, and then 2-3x a day for the next 3-4 days (and nothing else) Then I go back to my regular skin routine.

http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf

You don't want to stop feeding your skin after rolling...you just want to avoid the stuff that decreases the inflammation (like LEDs, inflammation reducing topicals, etc.)

And others will want to take note of the part about not rolling unless they have pre-treated their skin for 3 weeks to 3 months (depending on the amount of sun damage). Skin that is not prepped nutritionally will not respond as well...the torture is NOT worth the sub par results, so the prep is worth it.

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rileygirl
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Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:42 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:

I suspect that is because they do not recommend using ascorbic acid which is water soluble. I personally do not use oil based serums (I use 302), but I do not use acid-based ones either. (I stopped using Retin A). They do recommend the Environ EssentiA Oil product, but I have not looked at the makeup of it to see if it is a true oil-based serum, or a non-oil, non-water serum like 302.



Aren't the 302 Lightening Drops oil based?

Ingredients 302 lightening drops: Phyto-lipids of avocado, organic jojoba oil, tetrahexyldecylascorbate, lavender oil, tangerine and mint extracts

I am wondering about Bio Oil. It may be an option for some. It has A and E, but unfortunately no C.
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Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:57 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Aren't the 302 Lightening Drops oil based?

Ingredients 302 lightening drops: Phyto-lipids of avocado, organic jojoba oil, tetrahexyldecylascorbate, lavender oil, tangerine and mint extracts

I am wondering about Bio Oil. It may be an option for some. It has A and E, but unfortunately no C.


I was thinking that they were a non-oil since they had esters of some sort, but I could be totally off base. I just remember thinking they were oils, and then reading something on the 302 website or the 302 thread that changed my mind. Maybe it varies by product? Or maybe I'm just nuts? We should ask Boski!

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rileygirl
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Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:07 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
Aren't the 302 Lightening Drops oil based?

Ingredients 302 lightening drops: Phyto-lipids of avocado, organic jojoba oil, tetrahexyldecylascorbate, lavender oil, tangerine and mint extracts

I am wondering about Bio Oil. It may be an option for some. It has A and E, but unfortunately no C.


I was thinking that they were a non-oil since they had esters of some sort, but I could be totally off base. I just remember thinking they were oils, and then reading something on the 302 website or the 302 thread that changed my mind. Maybe it varies by product? Or maybe I'm just nuts? We should ask Boski!


Hmm. Probably should ask Boski! I know that the tetra form of the C is an oil soluble form if that helps!
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Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:50 pm      Reply with quote
kacy wrote:
Here's a great read on micro needling.

It's located at dermalintegrity--under News & Media - Microneedling Platlet Rich Plasma
I'm having trouble posting the link here.

It proves you don't need super long needles to get results. Collagen is created in the top .6mm of the skin. I think the platelet treatmene would be great, if there was a doctor in my area performing it.
I bought my .2 mm(works on eyelids and lips--use every night) and .5 mm(for injury--I use it one a week)from them--they're Canadian. I have been using my rollers for about 7 months and they're still sharp.
I use the Environ products to roll with.My pores are looking so much better. I'm tempted to buy a .3mm now.


This platelet treatment would certainly explain why the rollers who induce bloood are the ones getting real results!!! Not the temporary inflammation that looks like results!!
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Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:51 pm      Reply with quote
kacy wrote:
Here's a great read on micro needling.

It's located at dermalintegrity--under News & Media - Microneedling Platlet Rich Plasma
I'm having trouble posting the link here.

It proves you don't need super long needles to get results. Collagen is created in the top .6mm of the skin. I think the platelet treatmene would be great, if there was a doctor in my area performing it.
I bought my .2 mm(works on eyelids and lips--use every night) and .5 mm(for injury--I use it one a week)from them--they're Canadian. I have been using my rollers for about 7 months and they're still sharp.
I use the Environ products to roll with.My pores are looking so much better. I'm tempted to buy a .3mm now.

Kacy


Here's the link. http://dermalintegrity.com/newsmedia/micro.html

Kacy, which Environ products do you use when you roll? Could you list the products and the ingredients? Thanks in advance!
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