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Mars
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:08 am      Reply with quote
Hi, I'm kind of in freak out mode. I've dermarolled my face maybe half a dozen times with my 1.5 roller. The last time was probably 3 weeks ago. The skin on the sides of my mouth and my chin is really coarse looking. Well, Monday (Jan. 11), I decided to pick at my skin in that area with a sewing needle instead of using my roller. I just did a scratching/picking motion, not really trying to penetrate. I drew blook really easily. I was surprised at how much blood Shock Ok, so I rinsed really well and applied 302 C Serum. After 20 min., I applied my .5 Retin A. An hour or so later, I applied hemp oil and repeated the hemp oil maybe two more times before sleep.
Tues. morning it looked like some dried blood was trying to form scabs. I gently rubbed the areas with my fingertips and jojoba oil. Maybe 10 min. later, I applied my 302 C Serum. About an hour later, I applied a triple antibiotic ointment to keep it moist. I applied the ointment the rest of the day. My skin stayed dark red/brown all day and night. This morning, Thurs. Jan. 14, it is still very dark red/brown and you can easily see what looks like scratch marks where I picked/scratched with the needle. After I washed my face this morning, I applied 302C Serum, jojoba oil, and antibiotic ointment. I'm really getting worried. Exclamation I look like I'm healing from cat scratches or something.
Should I massage, keep moist, exfoliate or what?
PLEASE advise. I'm getting upset. Thank you very much.

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:11 pm      Reply with quote
Mars!!! Do not do anything else to your skin!

Here is what I wish someone would have told me when I have overworked my skin in the past.

Don't exfoliate, don't apply any C serum or retin-a. Simply keep your skin moist. Don't massage or pick at your skin. You may even want to skip one or two cleansings and rinse with water only. Your skin needs a break. It needs some time to repair and heal itself. The less you touch it, the better.

Once your skin calms down a little bit, you can resume your normal routine. Avoid all actives for at least 3-4 days. A week may be better.

Over the next week, your skin will probably become thick and scaly looking. Don't be tempted to over-exfoliate and make things worse. (been there, done that) Your skin will probably peel but that's a good thing.

Emu oil can help with inflammation.

If you are patient, your skin will reward you with beautiful skin in about a week. It will probably look even better than it did before. Meanwhile, you may have to endure a temporary case of the uglies. Makeup can help.

Best of luck!

HTH,
Tonia

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:37 pm      Reply with quote
Mars wrote:
Hi, I'm kind of in freak out mode. I've dermarolled my face maybe half a dozen times with my 1.5 roller. The last time was probably 3 weeks ago. The skin on the sides of my mouth and my chin is really coarse looking. Well, Monday (Jan. 11), I decided to pick at my skin in that area with a sewing needle instead of using my roller. I just did a scratching/picking motion, not really trying to penetrate. I drew blook really easily. I was surprised at how much blood Shock Ok, so I rinsed really well and applied 302 C Serum. After 20 min., I applied my .5 Retin A. An hour or so later, I applied hemp oil and repeated the hemp oil maybe two more times before sleep.
Tues. morning it looked like some dried blood was trying to form scabs. I gently rubbed the areas with my fingertips and jojoba oil. Maybe 10 min. later, I applied my 302 C Serum. About an hour later, I applied a triple antibiotic ointment to keep it moist. I applied the ointment the rest of the day. My skin stayed dark red/brown all day and night. This morning, Thurs. Jan. 14, it is still very dark red/brown and you can easily see what looks like scratch marks where I picked/scratched with the needle. After I washed my face this morning, I applied 302C Serum, jojoba oil, and antibiotic ointment. I'm really getting worried. Exclamation I look like I'm healing from cat scratches or something.
Should I massage, keep moist, exfoliate or what?
PLEASE advise. I'm getting upset. Thank you very much.


Oh Mars - what a nightmare! First, only 1.5mm roll once every month - never more as you'll only destroy the newly-forming collagen.
Secondly, I've also had in the past the coarse, sand paper look - I got this applying RetinA after rolling.
I believe sewing needles are not as fine as 'dermarolling' needles. Sewing needles will only damage your skin (not permanently though).

As Tonia says, let your skin heal and only apply soothing oils. Don't exfoliate until everything is dried up and no longer sensitive/red.
I hope your faces mends quickly - let us all know how you get on. It's so worrying isn't it?
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:24 pm      Reply with quote
Thank you, Miranda and Tonia for your advice and well wishes. You know, I didn't intend to make my skin bleed, but once it started, I thought, "Wow, maybe this is a good thing." and kept at it. What a dummy I am!
My rough texture has been there for YEARS! I think it has to do with 2 full blown dermabasions (not microderms) I had to remove acne scars. My doc was too aggressive or I wasn't instructed on how to properly aftercare my procedure. Anyway, when I'm in a certain light, or the sunlight hits me the wrong way, good Lord, my skin looks just awful (and after all I went through with the dermabrasions.) Sad That's why I started 302.
Geeeez! Do I know how to feel sorry for myself or what?????
At any rate, I will be gentle and just keep my "scratches" moist.
Thanks again.

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:37 pm      Reply with quote
mars- firstly, good luck with your healing. i'm sure if you just use the ointment for a while, it'll do alright.

as thisismiranda mentioned, that size roller is like a once every two months, at most, thing. though i might've misunderstood your intervals so nevermind this, in that case.

i'm sorry about your dermabrasions. i've had 2 (or 3?) dermasandings by the guy who developed it and luckily haven't had worsening but i can relate to going at myself about 5 years ago with a diabetic lancet (which is like the worst thing to try) and ended up permanently f'ing my skin. i'd be wary of even a sewing needle.

i'm sure you'll be lucky and recover but i know what it's like to want something so badly and take it into my own hands, having done all this research, yet having it go wrong. i really hope you heal excellently and end up with great results from the rolling down the road. Smile
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:59 pm      Reply with quote
Thank you, semolinapilchard. Sounds you can relate to where I'm coming from. May I ask, what were the characteristics of your f' up result?

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:38 pm      Reply with quote
i developed little calcified 'balls' where i needled so i've got little hard grey bits under my skin that can only be surgically removed. basically, can see the color and some of them are raised. i had a couple removed and the excisions went bad and i got more scars from it so i'm pretty bummed i attempted that particular diy. ah well. if you're concerned about your healing, i have a feeling you'll be in the clear with this one- doctors have said the calcification prob is pretty rare. but i def never saw that one coming and kinda figured 'what harm can this do' etc. oops.
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:17 pm      Reply with quote
I'm really sorry you've had to go through that. Crying or Very sad I understand how it can really bring you down. I'm having to work on that myself. I suppose we just do the best we can. Right?

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm      Reply with quote
Mars wrote:

Anyway, when I'm in a certain light, or the sunlight hits me the wrong way, good Lord, my skin looks just awful (and after all I went through with the dermabrasions.)
Thanks again.


That's the EXACT problem I have. Other people don't really notice the scars on my face. But they are definitely the kind that show up in certain light or direct sunlight. My skin looks great to the naked eye, but once that light hits it, scars everywhere!

Will dermarolling with a 1mm reduce these pitted scars, and even it out?

Might have to add a dermaroller to my routine. But I don't want to get it if it wont help my problem. I guess I have what is called "orange peel" skin. It kind of looks like an orange peel in certain light. It drives me crazy!
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:03 pm      Reply with quote
Mars wrote:
I'm really sorry you've had to go through that. Crying or Very sad I understand how it can really bring you down. I'm having to work on that myself. I suppose we just do the best we can. Right?

ah thanks. but absolutely- got to move on. at least i learned something in the process. so long as we focus on what we want rather than dwelling on what we see now and allowing it to get us down, i think we'll see things improve significantly.

ec413- me too, only yours sound less severe than mine. anyway, from what i've read on acne.org, a 1.5 generally produces results over many months to a year or so, particularly when used in conjunction with a red/infrared/yellow led.
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:03 am      Reply with quote
EC413 wrote:
Mars wrote:

Anyway, when I'm in a certain light, or the sunlight hits me the wrong way, good Lord, my skin looks just awful (and after all I went through with the dermabrasions.)
Thanks again.


That's the EXACT problem I have. Other people don't really notice the scars on my face. But they are definitely the kind that show up in certain light or direct sunlight. My skin looks great to the naked eye, but once that light hits it, scars everywhere!

Will dermarolling with a 1mm reduce these pitted scars, and even it out?

Might have to add a dermaroller to my routine. But I don't want to get it if it wont help my problem. I guess I have what is called "orange peel" skin. It kind of looks like an orange peel in certain light. It drives me crazy!


EC, is your skin problem scar tissue at the dermis level or more like a rough epidermis? (sorry if this sounds dumb, I'm not very technical with scar problems outside of SM's).

If it's more of a surface problem (and even if it isn't!) you could take a look at the Dermarolling for Product Penetration thread. Here we're talking more about light rolling (.20mm - .50mm). Some of us are getting great results from dry brushing and weekly mild rolls.
Light rolls are so much less scary than deeper ones - although you have to be careful as to which product you use as the strength of them are magnified many times when used on opened skin (but there's plenty of tips for that also).
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:22 am      Reply with quote
Just want to repeat post this onto here as well.
Interesting and debatable info:

"Needle diameter is very important as we are seeking to maximise the dermal injury without creating a new scar. In my experience, 0.25mm needle diameter is the maximum that can be used without causing a new scar in the skin. Smaller diameter needle skin rollers can be used but do not maximise the dermal injury and therefore will be slower to produce results.

Needle length is also a critical issue. The target when we needle the dermis is a layer in the upper dermis called the intermediate reticular dermis. This dermal layer contains the highest number of stem cells which are able to produce new collagen. The epidermis ( the outer layer of the skin ) varies in depth from .05mm on the eyelids to 1.5mm on the soles of the feet. The epidermis of the face ( other than the eyelids ) varies from 0.3mm to 1mm in depth and therefore a 0.75mm to 2mm needle length is more than adequate to reach the intermediate reticular dermis. In my experience, needles more than 2mm in length have a tendency to catch and tear the skin.

As the skin has a memory and will seek to return to its previous state, I recommend repeated Skin Needling treatments over a period of 1 to 2 years. I also recommend that my patients continue home needling to ensure the longevity of their scar improvement."

Points of interest for me are needle width and needle length beyond 2mm.
And what do you all think of the "skin has memory" statement?
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:19 am      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
EC413 wrote:
Mars wrote:

Anyway, when I'm in a certain light, or the sunlight hits me the wrong way, good Lord, my skin looks just awful (and after all I went through with the dermabrasions.)
Thanks again.


That's the EXACT problem I have. Other people don't really notice the scars on my face. But they are definitely the kind that show up in certain light or direct sunlight. My skin looks great to the naked eye, but once that light hits it, scars everywhere!

Will dermarolling with a 1mm reduce these pitted scars, and even it out?

Might have to add a dermaroller to my routine. But I don't want to get it if it wont help my problem. I guess I have what is called "orange peel" skin. It kind of looks like an orange peel in certain light. It drives me crazy!


EC, is your skin problem scar tissue at the dermis level or more like a rough epidermis? (sorry if this sounds dumb, I'm not very technical with scar problems outside of SM's).

If it's more of a surface problem (and even if it isn't!) you could take a look at the Dermarolling for Product Penetration thread. Here we're talking more about light rolling (.20mm - .50mm). Some of us are getting great results from dry brushing and weekly mild rolls.
Light rolls are so much less scary than deeper ones - although you have to be careful as to which product you use as the strength of them are magnified many times when used on opened skin (but there's plenty of tips for that also).


So you're asking if the scars are deep or just kind of at the top layer? I think most of them are just little shallow scars, not very pitted, although I have about 2 that are definitely more noticeable than the others, which means they might be a little deeper. In some sections, the scars are in random spots too. Some along the jawline, others on my cheeks.

So you're saying that even rolling with a .5mm dermaroller can smooth out soft scars? I was originally planning on getting a 1mm and nothing longer.. but if you think I should go the less invasive way and try out a shorter needle, I'd definitely be willing to give it a try.

I really don't think my scars are ALL that noticeable. The only reason why I notice them so easily is because every morning I have to stare at my face in the mirror.

If dermarolling would be able to smooth out my scars, it would be a miracle. I thought I was doomed with them for life.

ALSO, I just got a dry brush this week. And this will be the 3rd day of brushing. Can brushing smooth out scars? I feel like it is kind of polishing my face a bit... but that could just be me.
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:27 am      Reply with quote
EC413 wrote:
This is Miranda wrote:


EC, is your skin problem scar tissue at the dermis level or more like a rough epidermis? (sorry if this sounds dumb, I'm not very technical with scar problems outside of SM's).

If it's more of a surface problem (and even if it isn't!) you could take a look at the Dermarolling for Product Penetration thread. Here we're talking more about light rolling (.20mm - .50mm). Some of us are getting great results from dry brushing and weekly mild rolls.
Light rolls are so much less scary than deeper ones - although you have to be careful as to which product you use as the strength of them are magnified many times when used on opened skin (but there's plenty of tips for that also).


So you're asking if the scars are deep or just kind of at the top layer? I think most of them are just little shallow scars, not very pitted, although I have about 2 that are definitely more noticeable than the others, which means they might be a little deeper. In some sections, the scars are in random spots too. Some along the jawline, others on my cheeks.

So you're saying that even rolling with a .5mm dermaroller can smooth out soft scars? I was originally planning on getting a 1mm and nothing longer.. but if you think I should go the less invasive way and try out a shorter needle, I'd definitely be willing to give it a try.

I really don't think my scars are ALL that noticeable. The only reason why I notice them so easily is because every morning I have to stare at my face in the mirror.

If dermarolling would be able to smooth out my scars, it would be a miracle. I thought I was doomed with them for life.

ALSO, I just got a dry brush this week. And this will be the 3rd day of brushing. Can brushing smooth out scars? I feel like it is kind of polishing my face a bit... but that could just be me.


EC, I'm no expert but I've been rolling with 1.5mm since Sept 09 and with a 0.5mm since Dec and read alot of stuff.
Why don't you try both? Monthly deeper rolls with weekly shallow ones - or daily .20mm rolls? If you practise good hygiene and read all the info available (and follow it!), it can't do any harm.
I've recently converted to daily facial drybrushing - I think it works very well in conjunction with rolling. Excuse me if I'm repeating myself (I'm following 3 DR threads and can't remember what I'm typing for each one Rolling Eyes) but have a read on the Dermarolling for Product Penetration thread, it's full of great tips and ideas.
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:07 am      Reply with quote
This proves that a lot of people have never heard of dermarolling -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/beauty/article-1243313/Rolling-years-AMANDA-PLATELL-pins-hopes-looking-younger-agonising-new-beauty-gadget.html

PQ

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Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:10 pm      Reply with quote
photoqueen wrote:
This proves that a lot of people have never heard of dermarolling -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/beauty/article-1243313/Rolling-years-AMANDA-PLATELL-pins-hopes-looking-younger-agonising-new-beauty-gadget.html

PQ


Amazing how a wardrobe change (from black to red), increased lighting in the second photo and a different hairstyle can influence the appearance of the reporter!

BTW, the information on Angelina Jolie dermarolling is still just rumour, not substantiated fact; something else to keep in mind.

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Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:23 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
photoqueen wrote:
This proves that a lot of people have never heard of dermarolling -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/beauty/article-1243313/Rolling-years-AMANDA-PLATELL-pins-hopes-looking-younger-agonising-new-beauty-gadget.html

PQ


Amazing how a wardrobe change (from black to red), increased lighting in the second photo and a different hairstyle can influence the appearance of the reporter!



Wow, I totally agree. At first glance it looks like the dermaroller performed magic on the lady. But taking a really hard look, she still has the same features (for lack of better word) that she does in the before, but the change in colors of her clothes, and lighting especially makes her face look like it glows!
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:22 pm      Reply with quote
photoqueen wrote:
This proves that a lot of people have never heard of dermarolling -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/beauty/article-1243313/Rolling-years-AMANDA-PLATELL-pins-hopes-looking-younger-agonising-new-beauty-gadget.html

PQ



I'm still reeling over the snippet that they charge £300 for a rolling session!! Shock
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Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:12 am      Reply with quote
Hello, I'm new to this site. I found my way here looking for info on dermarolling.

I have some shallow indents from acne on my cheeks and was wondering what type of dermaroller/products I should use.

Thank you for your help!

-Sarah
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Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:14 am      Reply with quote
burs wrote:
Hello, I'm new to this site. I found my way here looking for info on dermarolling.

I have some shallow indents from acne on my cheeks and was wondering what type of dermaroller/products I should use.

Thank you for your help!

-Sarah


Dear Sarah,

Acne is the one problem I don't have but my personal advice is to read this article:

http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf

then read this article:

http://www.owndoc.com/category/dermarolling/

And then read as much of this thread as you can. There's no short-cut way of learning how to roll at home other than doing the research. It can go horribly wrong; always bear that in mind.

And if you haven't yet bought a roller, can I recommend you buy one from www.owndoc.com
They have great starter kits with two single needles, a mild retin A gel (if you're not allergic to lanolin) and a great vit C powder to mix with water which all come free with your roller order. The single needle I use for my chicken pox scar and it's good for targeting indentations like acne scars. And people are getting great results from it (although don't prick too densely).
There's a great thread called Dermarolling for product penetration where we talk about the milder rolls (with 0.5mm or 0.25mm) to push in our products but the 1.5mm is going to work on the collagen that you need to repair your skin. We also discovered facial skin brushing works brilliantly with rolling (on days you don't roll).

But basically a .25mm can roll everyday, 0.5mm once/twice a week and 1mm & 1.5mm once a month or even less. The reason why you can't roll more often is that you will break the newly formed collagen bundles if you roll over them too soon. It's frustrating because you want to see the results quickly but less is more with rolling, it's a slow process but a permanent one.

Anyway please let me know if there's anything else you need to know but these two articles should explain everything.

Good luck!
Miranda
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Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:07 am      Reply with quote
Wow - what new things have popped up on this thread since I last visited. The site 'owndoc' looks very good. Thanks for posting that Miranda.

Can I ask how many EDS members have used the roller offered by owndoc? How is the quality? How does it compare to the Dr Roller (which I have).

The price is reasonable and may allow me to get a full range of sizes. I only have a 1.5mm and bent a few needles on it when I dropped it(pulled those out). I wouldnt mind replacing that one too.

Miranda - I wanted to mention that owndoc does not offer a Retin A ointment w/ Vit D - it is a retinol ointment (much weaker than a retinoid like Retin A-but gentler and works great for rolling)
Quote:
Included is an ointment with 0.1% Retinol acetate (vit. A) and 9000 i.u. vit. D2


It's interesting that they say the crosslinking offered by the Dr Roller is not necessary. Has any one been able to compare the 2 to see how this principle fans out?

Also - how is the quality of the Vitamin C powder they offer? Does anyone know where they get theirs from? Is it L-AA and does it dissolve well?

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Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:32 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:

It's interesting that they say the crosslinking offered by the Dr Roller is not necessary. Has any one been able to compare the 2 to see how this principle fans out?



I'm interested in this as well. I thought Bethany found out the crosslinking of the needles was important?
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Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:49 am      Reply with quote
Unless I'm misunderstanding, owndoc says that they compared a number of different rollers before deciding which to sell, and that the one they are selling was one of the less expensive. Looks exactly like the one I got on ebay (jj's reco) for much less than owndoc is asking!
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Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:31 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:


Miranda - I wanted to mention that owndoc does not offer a Retin A ointment w/ Vit D - it is a retinol ointment (much weaker than a retinoid like Retin A-but gentler and works great for rolling)
Quote:
Included is an ointment with 0.1% Retinol acetate (vit. A) and 9000 i.u. vit. D2


Also - how is the quality of the Vitamin C powder they offer? Does anyone know where they get theirs from? Is it L-AA and does it dissolve well?


Hi Foxe,
Yes you're absolutely right re. Retin A/retinoid - I was typing from memory and just used the wrong term.

The Vit C powder is 20,000mg L-AA and dissolves very well. I can't give you any further technical info but can tell you my skin - which usually hates L-AA - loves this (I make it mild).
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Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:36 pm      Reply with quote
Hermosa wrote:
Unless I'm misunderstanding, owndoc says that they compared a number of different rollers before deciding which to sell, and that the one they are selling was one of the less expensive. Looks exactly like the one I got on ebay (jj's reco) for much less than owndoc is asking!


Maybe it is the cheapest roller but Owndoc have added on extra to cover the cost of the retinoid gel, vit C powder and two needles? What is the price difference?

If you're starting out, I think they offer a good deal especially as I had trouble finding needles (in Europe).
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