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DermaRoller

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CookieD
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Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:13 pm      Reply with quote
Below are a couple of comment from the article on skin needling I have some questions about. Has anyone gotten what they consider good results from dermarolling that DIDN'T bleed? Not so much things like better skin tone etc. but things like actual increase in collagen or wrinkles that are total gone or greatly reduced.




"If you don't bleed, you won't get the results and that is the part that most people aren't willing to do!" pointed out Dr Fernandes,

Interestingly, Dr Fernandes is not overly concerned about over-needling because the bigger problem is under-needling "whereby you won't get the results of smoother and healthier skin.




Naturally, when the blood vessel is pricked, it causes bleeding and this releases the platelet cells inside the blood that carry a mechanism to clot up blood vessels. At the same time, it carries out a lot of growth factors.

"When you injure skin tissue, the platelets release growth factors for the skin to heal. It promotes more collagen and elastin. We found that TGFB3 (Transforming growth factor beta-3) molecule helps tissue to regenerate instead of scar," he said.

"When you needle skin, there is a surge of TGFB3. Normally, if we cut the skin, the TGFB3 lasts 24 hours, but when you needle skin there is a surge for two weeks."




I wonder if you do a condensed rolling schedule if it is good for the body to have (what should be based on the comments above) an ongoing surge of TGFB3 for a long period of time?


The article has a picture of Dr. F using a 1.5mm Dermastamp. It doesn't say whether these comments are based on that size roller but I took it to be
(maybe mistakenly). Also the date on this article
is Dec. 2011 so it is a lot more recent then the PDF above.



http://www.asiaone.com/Health/Health%2BMatters/Story/A1Story20111204-314268.html

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Keliu
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Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:18 pm      Reply with quote
The original deep rolling protocol promoted by Dr. Fernandez was one roll every week for six weeks - then rest the skin. This is what I've always done. Therefore, I've only ever done one set of deep rolls per year.

Where does the advice to roll once a month come from? This would mean that the six treatments would take six months.

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Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:51 pm      Reply with quote
packratmack wrote:
Pandax12 wrote:
If you rolled like Keliu suggested and what most people do, it should not take nearly 30-45 minutes.Seems like overkill to me. Takes me 5 minutes tops.


A cosmetic roll might only take five minutes. If you are going to do a proper medical roll, it will take longer than that. Also, like CookieD said, if you go through all this trouble you want to do it thoroughly.


I think that rolls done with Emla take longer as well, since you are also having to wipe the cream off before rolling. I'm not counting the wait time after applying the Emla, but once you start. You need to pull off the plastic, wipe off the cream, wipe with antiseptic, roll, pull off the next section of plastic, etc...

If you don't use Emla it's faster since you don't need to mess with the cream...plus it hurts like #*@& so you may spend less time doing it!
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Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:00 pm      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:
Has anyone gotten what they consider good results from dermarolling that DIDN'T bleed?


I don't bleed. Sometimes just some pinprick spots, but nothing like your pictures.

However, I can't say that I'm getting much of a result either. So, I do think you are on to something by saying that bleeding improves results.

I did a series of six 0.5mm rolls about a year ago. Took a break for 3-4 months. Then started with a 1.0mm roller and a 1.5mm dermastamp. I use the dermastamp around my lips and on a small scar. I've done 4 of the 1.0/1.5mm series so far each about 5 weeks apart. I don't see much improvement. Don't see things getting worse either.

With the dermastamp, it really does go in all the way to the "hilt", so I don't think I'm "cheating" and having it not go all the way in, like you can with a roller. I wonder why some people bleed and others don't? I do use Retin A, so maybe that thickens the skin. I've not done laser, except my fruitless foray with the Palovia.
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Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:04 pm      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:

The article has a picture of Dr. F using a 1.5mm Dermastamp. It doesn't say whether these comments are based on that size roller but I took it to be
(maybe mistakenly). Also the date on this article
is Dec. 2011 so it is a lot more recent then the PDF above.



http://www.asiaone.com/Health/Health%2BMatters/Story/A1Story20111204-314268.html


I hadn't seen this one...thanks!

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Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:08 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
The original deep rolling protocol promoted by Dr. Fernandez was one roll every week for six weeks - then rest the skin. This is what I've always done. Therefore, I've only ever done one set of deep rolls per year.

Where does the advice to roll once a month come from? This would mean that the six treatments would take six months.


Dr. S said to not roll more frequently than every 30 days to prevent collagenase, but recommended 6 weeks I think.

But when you think about it, the ReAura schedule induces inflammation for 8 weeks, which I find a bit alarming.

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CookieD
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Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:43 pm      Reply with quote
ShastaGirl wrote:
CookieD wrote:
Has anyone gotten what they consider good results from dermarolling that DIDN'T bleed?


I don't bleed. Sometimes just some pinprick spots, but nothing like your pictures.

However, I can't say that I'm getting much of a result either. So, I do think you are on to something by saying that bleeding improves results.

I did a series of six 0.5mm rolls about a year ago. Took a break for 3-4 months. Then started with a 1.0mm roller and a 1.5mm dermastamp. I use the dermastamp around my lips and on a small scar. I've done 4 of the 1.0/1.5mm series so far each about 5 weeks apart. I don't see much improvement. Don't see things getting worse either.

With the dermastamp, it really does go in all the way to the "hilt", so I don't think I'm "cheating" and having it not go all the way in, like you can with a roller. I wonder why some people bleed and others don't? I do use Retin A, so maybe that thickens the skin. I've not done laser, except my fruitless foray with the Palovia.


I have used Retin A off and on for years and I do
think I have pretty thick skin. I did about 6 or 8 rolls with a .05 mm and never drew more then a few pin pricks of blood. Maybe it does have something to do with the ReAura laser thinning the skin. I have no idea.

I do think it goes against human nature to hurt oneself and draw blood. So that in itself along with the pain of dermarolling (if not using any numbing cream) maybe stopping people from either doing it deep enough or long enough to get good results.

If most of the clinical research that we are going by is by Dr. F and he is rolling for 40 min. and getting lots of blood. That would lead me to believe that in order to get the kind of results he is getting in his studies that we have to do those things also.

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Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:47 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Keliu wrote:
The original deep rolling protocol promoted by Dr. Fernandez was one roll every week for six weeks - then rest the skin. This is what I've always done. Therefore, I've only ever done one set of deep rolls per year.

Where does the advice to roll once a month come from? This would mean that the six treatments would take six months.


Dr. S said to not roll more frequently than every 30 days to prevent collagenase, but recommended 6 weeks I think.

But when you think about it, the ReAura schedule induces inflammation for 8 weeks, which I find a bit alarming.


Bethany, is there some kind of study online that you can point me towards by Dr. S or is this information just in his book?


ETA: I think I found the study. We have talked about this study before.
ETA again: This is a retrospective study (were Dr. S didn't participate in any of the studies, I don't think) which aren't the best kind. In the study there are 44 people total. There is no way to tell how many people were using the 1.0 mm and 2.0 mm rollers but they say that that group is too small to draw a definite conclusion. We could be bases our decision off of two or 3 people. It looks like the people using the 1.0mm rolling, rolled 2 times in 7 months and the people using the 2.0mm roller rolled 2 times in 5 months.

The medical needling group is too small to draw definite conclusions

Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.


http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf

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Keliu
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Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:24 pm      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:

Maybe it does have something to do with the ReAura laser thinning the skin. I have no idea.


I don't believe the ReAura is thinning the skin - it's injuring the skin with thousands of micro-channels, in much the same way that needling does. After a ReAura treatment, if I look in a magnifying mirror, I can see the tiny pin-pricks left by the laser - especially in areas such as the forehead and nose.

Therefore, these micro-channel injuries make the blood flow to the surface of the skin, especially when "re-injured" or if you have the habit of picking at your face like I do. So all this injuring of the skin isn't actually thinning it.

I did a 1mm DermaPen treatment two weeks after finishing 32 ReAura treatments. I bled like a stuffed pig (unusual for me). I'm sure this was because I was needling over channels created by the ReAura. Initially, I was a little concerned that maybe I was over-doing things - but by day three my skin was back to normal.

At this point I'm very happy with the way my skin is looking - there are no signs that I've "abused" it too much. I'm going to do one more DermaPen treatment next week, then I'll be away from home so will take that opportunity to give my skin a well earned rest.

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Keliu
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Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:56 pm      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:
Quote:
Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.
http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf[/quote


Although Dr.S states the above - I note that in the "Methods" section of the same paper it says:

Quote:
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day).


Confusing!!

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Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:38 am      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
CookieD wrote:
Quote:
Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.
http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf[/quote


Although Dr.S states the above - I note that in the "Methods" section of the same paper it says:

Quote:
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day).


Confusing!!



The chart really stinks and I think the whole thing is kind of confusing. Because this is a retrospective study the chart might be a combination of two different studies.(there's no way to tell) One that used needles .05 and under and one that used 1.0 and over. Maybe that is where the confusing wording in the methods come from. If you look at the heading under frequency you will see how many times the subject did the roll or just put on product. The once daily is just putting on product. If you look at the CR20 (2.0mm roller) you will see the subject did that 2 times during a 5 month period. Or the CR5 (.05mm roller) They rolled once a week for 5 months etc.

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CookieD
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Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:26 am      Reply with quote
I am sure this has been posted before but it is interesting. I also found a link to Dr. Fernandes website. It is mostly about different plastic surgery options but does mention PCI but doesn't say much about it.


ETA:This is a development of the Environ Roll-Cit medical needling, which has been featured on television in the United States. Medical needling uses 3-mm needles to penetrate deeper into the skin, and this does cause bruising and swelling. On the other hand, microneedling uses needles that only penetrate to a maximum of 1 mm, and this causes virtually no bruising and minimal swelling. With microneedling you can return to work the day after the treatment without any signs except some pink skin, as though you have been exposed to the sun. A series of 6 microneedling sessions should be done at intervals ranging from once a week to once a month— depending on the degree of improvement that is required

http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/ClinicsDermatology2008_PCI.pdf


http://www.drdes.co.za/

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Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:51 am      Reply with quote
I wonder what this would be like post roll. It's recommended as a post tattoo healing serum. The ingredients look good.

Troll Skin Regeneration Serum.
Distilled water, Lactobacillus/kelp ferment filtrate, Porphyridium extract, Laminaria japonica extract, Arthrospira extract, sodium PCA, alpha bisabolol (natural), coconut (Cocos nucifera) endosperm, natural active peptides, sodium hyaluronate, guaizulene, copper peptide (glycyl-l-histidyl-l-lysine:copper [II], GHK-Cu), epidermal growth factor, propylene glycol, diazolidinyl urea, methylparaben, propylparaben.
http://www.skinactives.com/Troll-Skin-Regeneration-Serum.html

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Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:17 am      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
I wonder what this would be like post roll. It's recommended as a post tattoo healing serum. The ingredients look good.

Troll Skin Regeneration Serum.
Distilled water, Lactobacillus/kelp ferment filtrate, Porphyridium extract, Laminaria japonica extract, Arthrospira extract, sodium PCA, alpha bisabolol (natural), coconut (Cocos nucifera) endosperm, natural active peptides, sodium hyaluronate, guaizulene, copper peptide (glycyl-l-histidyl-l-lysine:copper [II], GHK-Cu), epidermal growth factor, propylene glycol, diazolidinyl urea, methylparaben, propylparaben.
http://www.skinactives.com/Troll-Skin-Regeneration-Serum.html


I don't know what a couple of the actives are but I don't see any Vit. A of C. I think those 2 things are the most important ingredients according to Dr. F. Also it has copper peptides in it. I read on EDS (don't remember where) that you shouldn't use them until 5 days after a roll because they help with inflammation and you what that inflammation after a roll to help build collagen.

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Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:44 pm      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:
I don't know what a couple of the actives are but I don't see any Vit. A of C. I think those 2 things are the most important ingredients according to Dr. F. Also it has copper peptides in it. I read on EDS (don't remember where) that you shouldn't use them until 5 days after a roll because they help with inflammation and you what that inflammation after a roll to help build collagen.


I use LAA and Retin-A separately, one am one pm so I don't need them in my post-roll serum. The CPs would be a far lesser percentage than an actual CP serum. I like the sound of the Coconut Endosperm, the growth factors and the various sea kelp ingredients - and it's cheap! So I may give it a try.

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Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:45 pm      Reply with quote
I found an article about acne scarring and needling if someone has this issue.

http://chicagopermanentcosmetics.com/Acne%20Scarring.pdf

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Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:13 pm      Reply with quote
Really enjoyed seeing this interview with Dr. Des Fernandes of Environ...He's 70 and has rolled over 50 times...I guess he's talking medical rolls because he rolls every day. He's skin looks wonderful!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_FurQQvuWg
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Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:26 pm      Reply with quote
Wow! Thanks for posting this. The skin on his face and hands has the texture and apperance of a person in their twenties, not seventy year old person!...the only way you can tell he is aged is from the facial sagging, assume he has had little, if any, plastic surgery, it would appear his appearance is nearly all due to topicals and needling.

His comments on milk are interesting.

BFG
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Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:32 pm      Reply with quote
oh and that hair~!

He must color it, but he's still got what appears to be all of it!...I know needling is done for hair growth as well.

BFG
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Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:36 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:


His comments on milk are interesting.

BFG


Yes, my trainer/nutritionist told me to stay away from it as well. He said it was horrible for the tone/elasticity of the skin.

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Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:37 am      Reply with quote
here is another good one talking about specific ingredients and how a wide spectrum of vitamins, peptides, etc are necessary...he doesn't look as good as he did in the first one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WhDvYJ0Ts0
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Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:53 pm      Reply with quote
Hi guys

I have just dermarolled my face but I applied retin a after the roll, I realise now that maybe I shouldn't have? should I wash it off? I don't want to cause any damage ...any advice?
Keliu
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Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:08 pm      Reply with quote
glamlass wrote:
Hi guys

I have just dermarolled my face but I applied retin a after the roll, I realise now that maybe I shouldn't have? should I wash it off? I don't want to cause any damage ...any advice?


It's not advisable to apply Retin-A directly after rolling. It's a drug and should be applied to non-broken skin. You might get more irritation than you usually do and your skin might peel.

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Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:20 am      Reply with quote
glamlass wrote:
Hi guys

I have just dermarolled my face but I applied retin a after the roll, I realise now that maybe I shouldn't have? should I wash it off? I don't want to cause any damage ...any advice?


I do that everytime after i roll now, it acts as a very gentle chemical peel for me,
I suppose i get similar effects to the VI peel
I would reccomend it to anyone, I got the idea from the tretinoin 10% peeling mask. Google it, i cant post a direct link to it as im a new member Sad
Btw im a long time lurker Smile
If by any chance you would like to see the whole article, let me know, i study in a UK university student and can get access.

The effects are brilliant when i roll in tretinoin.
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Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:01 am      Reply with quote
I'm interested in the study...haven't ever heard of a retin A peel but when I googled it, it supposed to help with melasma...I probably have some of that also but my biggest problem if poikiloderma or POC.

How often do you roll with retin a?

Thanks for posting!
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