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catski
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Sun May 18, 2008 7:52 am      Reply with quote
Hi Scots. I did six of these very interventional rolls. Sometimes I spaced them apart by ten days or two weeks, to allow the skin to recover fully. I was using the 1.5.

I applied supercop2 afterward, too, sometimes pretty soon afterward ( really severely ouchy) and sometimes not untill the day after rolling.

It was dramatic, in terms of redness, swelling, hurtiness.And it was also dramatic in terms of really huge improvement.

What were previously fuschia 'runs in your stockings' deep marks, are now very pale, closer to the surface. And the whole area has better quality skin. It was previously ruined skin that was crepey and overstretched. ( I feel I should say that I got such appalling stretchmarks probably because I was depressed when pregnant and I ate like a horse and applied no oils to my body.. Crying or Very sad )

The skin now isnt noticeably ruined, from a distance. But it isnt even and smooth. So I'm planning to do another round of rolling in the autumn, and I'm wondering about getting a longer needled roller, as Zenity did for her sister.
I'm beginning to think that I maybe able to entirely undo the damage. It would not only lift my spirits hugely from the aesthetic point of view, but also make me feel I'd made it up to myself for the way I neglected myself when I was pregnant.
So it feels a wonderfully creative proccess. I'm very amazed by it.
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Sun May 18, 2008 12:23 pm      Reply with quote
catski wrote:
Hi Scots. I did six of these very interventional rolls. Sometimes I spaced them apart by ten days or two weeks, to allow the skin to recover fully. I was using the 1.5.

I applied supercop2 afterward, too, sometimes pretty soon afterward ( really severely ouchy) and sometimes not untill the day after rolling.

It was dramatic, in terms of redness, swelling, hurtiness.And it was also dramatic in terms of really huge improvement.


You applied SC2X after your roll? Shock YIKES! You are a brave woman!!!

I will probably go with the Super Cop Serum, but I wouldn't be able to handle that deep itchy feeling on my face. (yes, I am a wuss)

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bethany
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Sun May 18, 2008 12:46 pm      Reply with quote
Sharing this link because it had a nice summary of the benefits of rolling, plus some info on the pre-roll skin prep and some post-roll recommendations.

(it looks like the technical/medical stuff came from one of the links that Cadia posted, but is a more user friendly format since it is a sales pitch)


Quote:
Indications for Percutaneous Collagen Induction Therapy using microneedles include:

1. To restore skin texture and firmness in the early stages of facial aging. The skin tightening results from increased collagen and elastin deposition within the deeper layers of the dermis. Other areas that can be treated include the neck, arms, abdomen, thighs, areas between the breasts and buttocks.

2. Fine wrinkles around the eyes, lower eyelids, forehead and upper lips.

3. Photodamaged skin with pigmentation.

4. Acne scarring.

5. Reducing stretch marks and tightening loose skin after childbirth.

6. Laxity of skin in the arms and tummy after liposuction and Thermage.

7. Accelerate transdermal penetration of medically recommended topical cosmeceuticals.

8. Scars following accidents and burns.

Most patients seeking skin rejuvenation have physical signs of photoaging from ultraviolet sun damage. Others have pigment scars after acne remission and epidermal thinning from previous skin peels and laser treatments. Priming of the skin epidermis with topical Vitamin A and C prior to medical epidermal microneedling is advised. Vitamin A is believed to promote normal cellular function, proliferation, and differentiation of cells and Vitamin C promotes new collagen formation and is a powerful antioxidant. Improved skin health promotes a more sustained response to microneedling. Vitamin A is essential for the normal physiology of skin and it is destroyed by daily exposure to sunlight thereby diminishing its important influence on skin metabolism.

The inflammatory response of the skin epidermis and dermis following microneedling results in increased cellular proliferation involving various blood cells such as neutrophils, leucocytes, monocytes, keratinocytes, and dermal fibroblasts which in turn continue to influence and be influenced by the release of growth factors. Recent studies on wound healing have shown the influence of Transforming growth factor (TGF)-b in the induction of angiogenesis or new blood vessel formation following injury to the skin with increased extracellular matrix protein production. Keratinocytes stimulate growth of the epidermis and dermal fibroblast proliferation results in increased collagen deposition which in turn results in healthier, smoother skin that is firm in texture with improved natural colour.

Post P-CIT management involves daily topical application of vitamin A and transdermal delivery of Provitamin C using iontophoresis technology. This allows maximum penetration of these essential vitamins as well as other liposomal serums for new cell growth, elastin and collagen production. P-CIT can be repeated, if required, until the desired aesthetic result is obtained.

http://www.beautyborneo.com/thermage03.php

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bethany
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Sun May 18, 2008 12:49 pm      Reply with quote
And now for my stupid question of the day:

Dermarolling has positive effects on pigmentation, which is one of the reasons I am trying it.

But how can that work, if it is simply genererating new collagen and elastin UNDER the skin? Is it because some people peel?

I am not questioning the success - I'm just curious as to how it works.

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bethany
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Sun May 18, 2008 1:06 pm      Reply with quote
I was looking for FL doctors who do medical rolling, and came across this video for a Miami doctor who was featured in a TV news segment on rolling. The video below shows him doing the treatment on a woman with acne scars...there is definitely a significant amount of blood. Confused

But the interesting part was when they mentioned the COST of the treatment - $2,500 to $3,000. Shock Shock Shock Talk about some mark up!

http://www.drbustillo.com/assets/primer-impacto-full.wmv

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Sun May 18, 2008 4:55 pm      Reply with quote
Can someone who speaks Spanish tell me what he said about Resty in the earlobes?
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Sun May 18, 2008 6:33 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
I was looking for FL doctors who do medical rolling, and came across this video for a Miami doctor who was featured in a TV news segment on rolling. The video below shows him doing the treatment on a woman with acne scars...there is definitely a significant amount of blood. Confused

But the interesting part was when they mentioned the COST of the treatment - $2,500 to $3,000. Shock Shock Shock Talk about some mark up!

http://www.drbustillo.com/assets/primer-impacto-full.wmv


This video (like others that I've seen) highlights the difference between a clinical roll and a home roll. There is no way that you could perform this type of roll on yourself - unless you're into self mutilation! Given the nature of the injury in the clinical roll, one would imagine that the formation of collagen would be greater than that of the home roll. However, I guess, with home rolling, we have quantity instead of quality on our side.

As for the cost - that would cover the cost of the roller (which would be a single use), sterilization, anesthetic (probably a local and not just a numbing cream and, of course, doctors fees. I guess it's comparable to the cost of laser treatments and you'd probably get better results. Bethany, if you ever decide to have a clinical roll, we will all be waiting with baited breath for your opinion of the experience. It is something that I would definitely consider if I had the opportunity. (Looks like I'll have to go to Borneo! Shock ) The nurse at the skin clinic I go to is completely amazed at the difference rolling has made to my skin in terms of thickening it up.

As the for effects of rolling on pigmentation. Doesn't the skin renew itself from the inside out? Therefore new skin would be pushing up from beneath to take the place of the pigmented skin which would be gradually sloughing off. This is my understanding of how it works but I have no medical knowledge, so if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
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Sun May 18, 2008 6:40 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Bethany, if you ever decide to have a clinical roll, we will all be waiting with baited breath for your opinion of the experience. It is something that I would definitely consider if I had the opportunity. (Looks like I'll have to go to Borneo! Shock )


Keliu, I really WAS considering going until I saw the price...that is just nuts!! And I already threw away $3500 on Fraxel, lol...it's too bad I did not learn about this first, or I would have been down there in Miami letting him mutilate me instead. Very Happy

I think I am going to go with the "slower is better and cheaper" routine, and do it myself like everyone else!

Now I am just awaiting my rollers' arrival, and a meeting with my new boss the first week of June. Oh, and the arrival of the anesthetic I ordered. Then I can roll to my heart's content. Very Happy

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Keliu
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Sun May 18, 2008 7:06 pm      Reply with quote
Yes, I threw away $4000 on Thermage - have achieved much better results from a $100 roller.

BTW, I have definitely noticed that I get a more aggressive roll if I use a numbing cream. When I first start to roll, I think that the numbing cream has not taken effect because it still hurts but once I get going I do think I give myself a more intense roll. Afterwards, my skin is always much redder than if I don't use the cream.
bethany
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Sun May 18, 2008 7:15 pm      Reply with quote
Isn't that sad that we can waste so much money on things that really don't help us that much? And the REALLY sad part is that the doctors know that it only helps a small % of people...and we are most likely NOT those people, sigh.

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sharky
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Mon May 19, 2008 8:03 pm      Reply with quote
Bethany: I think you are atleast partly right in saying that the pigmantation effect may be due to peeling. The reason I say that is that I saw real improvement in pigmentation in just 3 weeks and that is way too short for collagen production.

PS I bought two new rollers another 1.5mm and 2mm(a little scary).
bethany
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Mon May 19, 2008 8:20 pm      Reply with quote
sharky wrote:
Bethany: I think you are atleast partly right in saying that the pigmantation effect may be due to peeling. The reason I say that is that I saw real improvement in pigmentation in just 3 weeks and that is way too short for collagen production.

PS I bought two new rollers another 1.5mm and 2mm(a little scary).


Sharky, WOW....is that 2mm for your face?

BTW, did you use actives after your roll to cause the peel? (please forgive me if it is already up there in the thread...I am just starting my 2nd read for the details since I am actually now going to be rolling. Confused )

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Tue May 20, 2008 5:48 am      Reply with quote
Hi, I've been a lurker for quite some time. Embarassed I've rolled with the 1.5 dermaroller 5 times, each time a week apart. I always get those blood spots and they dry very quickly. I've tried rinsing my face with water but I don't get all of the blood off. I then apply retin a or vitamic c mixed with hylorinic acid. My question is what do ya'll do after rolling to get rid of the blood spots? Also, I do it at night right before bed and I have a husband and 2 children who never notice anything. Granted, we only have a lamp on in the bedroom but still, my face is very red with those little blood spots around my cheeks and they don't say anything. I keep waiting for one of them to ask what's wrong with my face. Anxious
rileygirl
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Tue May 20, 2008 6:39 am      Reply with quote
Sharky, what size did you use to get that much improvement in pigmentation in 3 weeks? Thanks in advance!
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Tue May 20, 2008 7:25 am      Reply with quote
Hi, I've been rolling for about 5 weeks with my 1.5. I'm including the fronts of my thighs (for cellulite) in my rolling sessions. I get quite a few drops of blood there. I just rinse with water. Some blood remains. I don't know what to apply to my thighs after rolling. I have been using jojoba oil. Confused Any suggestions?
Smile

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Mars
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Tue May 20, 2008 7:28 am      Reply with quote
Hi, again, I too would like to hear comments about using Dermawand after rolling. I've been waiting 3 days before I use either Dermawand or or my DPL after rolling. hmm

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ScotsLass
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Tue May 20, 2008 10:01 am      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
This video (like others that I've seen) highlights the difference between a clinical roll and a home roll. There is no way that you could perform this type of roll on yourself - unless you're into self mutilation! Given the nature of the injury in the clinical roll, one would imagine that the formation of collagen would be greater than that of the home roll. However, I guess, with home rolling, we have quantity instead of quality on our side.

As for the cost - that would cover the cost of the roller (which would be a single use), sterilization, anesthetic (probably a local and not just a numbing cream and, of course, doctors fees. I guess it's comparable to the cost of laser treatments and you'd probably get better results. Bethany, if you ever decide to have a clinical roll, we will all be waiting with baited breath for your opinion of the experience. It is something that I would definitely consider if I had the opportunity. (Looks like I'll have to go to Borneo! Shock ) The nurse at the skin clinic I go to is completely amazed at the difference rolling has made to my skin in terms of thickening it up.

As the for effects of rolling on pigmentation. Doesn't the skin renew itself from the inside out? Therefore new skin would be pushing up from beneath to take the place of the pigmented skin which would be gradually sloughing off. This is my understanding of how it works but I have no medical knowledge, so if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

Keliu - Didn't you say that you use a Clearskincare roller? I can't remember if it was you who stated they liked it or not, but someone in this thread mentioned it. If you're really interested in trying some clinical treatments, Clearskincare in Edgecliff, Australia does offer them and has published their rates on their website. Each treatment costs between $75.00 to $275.00. www.clearskincare.com.au/skin_needling.html . Not certain if Edgecliff is too far away from you, but it might be closer than Borneo!

I must say that some of Clearskincare's suggestions are a little out there, IMO. The recommendation of using Tretinoin 0.025% in combination with 4% Hydroquinone for at least 4 weeks before you start your treatments and then to continue with these products for weeks afterwards is worrisome to me. Other than addressing hyperpigmentation issues (and serious ones at that), I can't imagine why they would suggest such a combination of topicals to use pre and post treatment. I would never use Hydroquinone for my hyperpigmentation either, due to the potential cancer risks involved with it.

It also sounds like they feel that 10-12 treatments are 'typical' to achieve good results, which seems excessive compared to other needling experts who have indicated that only a few clinically-performed sessions are necessary. That will add up on one hand, but take a couple of years to complete on the other, since they recommend that you take a break of 2 to 3 months between each treatment. I was also surprised to read that they discard the medical roller (that is sterilized and stored between treatments) after 6 sessions! So I assume the needles of the Clearskincare roller wear out a lot faster than the other medical models on the market these days.

To view their rolling Protocol, check out this link as it shows what they will do, step by step, with PICTURES! Be forewarned that the pic's are pretty graphic. Looking at this protocol, there is no way I would attempt such a thing on my own at home. The idea of making three passes over my entire face until it was completely saturated in blood would be too much for me. Of course there might be others here who are into self-mutilation and want to try this, or already have! I personally feel that the protocol I've been following, which wasn't wussy in the least, but not as extreme as this one either, is going to be just as effective in terms of positive results. If it isn't, I will seriously re-think my next treatment schedule and how far I'm willing to go with the blood factor. Anxious www.mesotherapyworldwide.com/images/pdf/Skin%20Needling%20Protocol.pdf

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Tue May 20, 2008 6:29 pm      Reply with quote
ScotsLass wrote:
I must say that some of Clearskincare's suggestions are a little out there, IMO.


I liked the part where they said to stop rolling when the skin looked "quite macerated." Shock Shock Shock

"Maceration, in dermatology, is the softening and whitening of skin kept constantly wet, leaving it more vulnerable to infection or damage by tearing."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maceration

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Keliu
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Tue May 20, 2008 7:12 pm      Reply with quote
ScotsLass wrote:
Keliu - Didn't you say that you use a Clearskincare roller? I can't remember if it was you who stated they liked it or not, but someone in this thread mentioned it. If you're really interested in trying some clinical treatments, Clearskincare in Edgecliff, Australia does offer them and has published their rates on their website. Each treatment costs between $75.00 to $275.00. www.clearskincare.com.au/skin_needling.html . Not certain if Edgecliff is too far away from you, but it might be closer than Borneo!


I did purchase a Clearskincare roller but gave it to my daughter in favour of the one from the Nova Clinic. I live on the Gold Coast in Queensland but do go to Sydney about twice a year to visit my parents. So next time I'm there I'll definitely check out the Clearskincare Clinic in Edgecliff.

The treatment costs seem quite reasonable. However, there would be no way I'd have that done without a local. Numbing cream wouldn't do much with that amount of rolling and I don't like the thought of numbing cream being applied to the skin whilst the wounds are open. There is also no way I'd do this to myself at home, or advise anyone else to try it - way to gory for me!
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Wed May 21, 2008 3:26 pm      Reply with quote
Mr. Leibl left me a reply on his blog about needle length.

Here is my question:

Quote:

Mr. Liebl,

I have been reading extensively on collagen induction, and am excited to learn about such a compelling product. Having endured 4 painful Fraxel treatments with limited results (and horrid swelling), I am very much looking forward to experiencing the results you are able to achieve.

I do have one question that remains unanswered, and that pertains to needle length. I am hoping you can enlighten me in this respect.

In the abstract “STIMULATION OF CELL GROWTH” it stated that collagen fibers were not produced deeper than 0.5 to 0.6mm even though 1.5mm needles were used for penetration (quote listed below).

Does this mean that a Dermaroller with a needle length of LESS than 1.5mm can produce these same results? If yes, what is the shortest needle than can effectively impact moderate wrinkles, pigmentation issues, and other anti-aging concerns? (I do understand that both needle length and eletrical charge may come into play regarding results)

Thank you for providing an alternative to lasers, etc….your work is very much appreciated. I look forward to your reply.

Bethany

Quote from Abstract:
The theory expounded by some experts ‘the longer the needle the better’, is not supported by scientific evidence! After evaluation of all of the biopsies in Dr Schwarz’s study, new collagen fibers were only found close to the corium and not deeper than 0.5 to 0.6 mm. Although the Dermaroller model MF8 has 1.5 mm long needles, no significant new collagen and elastin formation could be found in the sub-dermal tissue. It may be possible that longer needles may have a higher electrical potential, but needles longer than 1.5 mm increase the risk to damage nerves and vessels, and this again will result in haematomas and possible nerve paralysis.


And his reply...

Quote:
Dear Bethany,

Thank you for contacting the Dermaroller BLOG with your question in respect of new collagen formation stimulated by Microneedling with the Dermaroller.

Although we already know a lot of the mechanism of action by needling the skin, we are still investing time and effort to find more answers. In the blind study of Dr. Schwarz only needles with 1.5 mm were used. We never made biopsies from skin treated with shorter needles. But we have proof that even shorter needles like such from the Home Care Dermaroller (0.2 mm) thickens the epidermis by 30 to 40% when used twice a week for about 2 to 3 month.

Why collagen and elastin fibers only form close to the corium, not deeper than 0,5 to 0.6 mm, can only be speculated. Our skin has about 200 nerve receptors per square centimeter in the upper layer of the dermis. They sense first any change (like injury) in the electrical field of skin cells and the extra cellular electrolyte. Skin cells react to this change be transmitting growth factors (TGF) that stimulate cell proliferations, i.e. fibroblasts.
As the injury (needle prick) comes from outside, from the top layer of the skin, fibroblasts most likely are directed toward the uppermost point of injury in order to close the penetration opening. Needle prick channels, not bigger than 0.1 mm in diameter close very quickly, and after 10 minutes they only have a seize of 0.03 mm, then they finally close completely. Properly tooled needles do NOT damage the skin like a cutting device or a laser would do. As fibroblasts do not have to REPAIR any damage after needling they transform directly into collagen fibers, but not into fiber bundles as it happens in a fibrotic tissue. They somehow integrate in the given collagen pattern that gives skin its elasticity.

It is very difficult to understand the difference of cell renewal by microneedling and procedures such as fractional laser devices that uses skin repair mechanisms (fibrosis). However, any heat beam above 48°C transforms protein into fibrosis, also known as scar tissue. With resurfacing CO2 lasers the skin is removed horizontally in order to force it to build up new tissue. Fractionated laser beams enter the skin vertically and the laser beam sets many fine scars in the dermis. The term “fractional” means: the skin has to be thermally punctured in fractions with healthy (not lasered) tissue in between the thermal punctures. The problem seems to be, that no one can tell in a follow-up session, which skin point was lasered before and which one not. Theoretically the same little scar can be hit several times and the results are below expectations. It is often reported that thermal skin treatments are painful. Also this is easy to understand, simply because burn wounds heal relatively slow and thermally melted nerve receptors obviously have a longer pain memory.

Let me summarize:
The skin reacts to Dermarolling by cell regeneration.
Skin reacts to thermal or any other ablative procedures with the body’s repair mechanism – fibrosis.

(For further information, please refer to the article of Christopher S. J. Dunkin et al.: Scarring Occurs at a Critical Depth of Skin Injury…, published 2007 by the American Society of Plastic Surgeons).

Best regards
Horst Liebl


Well, that didn't exactly answer my question. BUT...if the fibroplasts are going to migrate to the TOP of the channel, it does not seem like the channels need to be very long.

I think I am going to start with the 1.0mm and revisit down the road. I am not planning to do an aggressive roll more than once every 2-3 months, and I will now get a smaller roller for product penetration since I was advised that I should not use my ultrasound every day.

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Wed May 21, 2008 5:45 pm      Reply with quote
Bethany - why were you advised not to use your ultrasound everyday? Did I miss something? I have a UP5 and I use it every morning. It uses iontophoresis to push products into the skin which Dr. Fernandes says is very beneficial to use along with a skin roller.
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Wed May 21, 2008 5:51 pm      Reply with quote
Well, I am now a Roller Girl...sort of.

My rollers arrived, and I couldn't contain myself....I went to Walgreens and got some antibacterial/Bactaracin spray, and then wiped the sides of my face and the tops of my hands. Then I rolled the heck out of them with the little .5mm roller. Shock I definitely got some blood spots, my face stings, and I now look like a lobster!

However, once you get going, I can totally see where you can keep on rollin' with the best of 'em! Very Happy

I specifically did not do the rest of my face since I want to see how badly I swell first, so this ought to be a good test.

But you ladies rolling with the 1.5mm's and bigger are TOUGH....I am sitting here with stinging parts wondering how you can possibly do it!!

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Wed May 21, 2008 5:54 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Bethany - why were you advised not to use your ultrasound everyday? Did I miss something? I have a UP5 and I use it every morning. It uses iontophoresis to push products into the skin which Dr. Fernandes says is very beneficial to use along with a skin roller.


Keliu, I posted his reply on the ultrasound thread...it is at the very bottom on page 1.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29006&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

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Wed May 21, 2008 6:04 pm      Reply with quote
OMG!!! Yay Bethany!!! I haven't checked this thread for a while but I see you're a rollergirl now too!!! Very Happy Welcome! I think you'll be well pleased with the results!
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Wed May 21, 2008 6:06 pm      Reply with quote
YAY Bethany!! Very Happy I haven't checked this thread for a while but now I see you're a rollergirl, too! Welcome, I think you'll be well pleased with the results!!
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