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Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:57 am  |
I've been reading a lot about cleansers recently.
And I've basically divided cleansers into 3 types: soap-based, detergent-based, and oil-based.
(Now I know you could make the argument soap is a kind of detergent. But I just decided to keep it separate.)
Anyhow, soap and synthetic detergents are surfactants, and I want to make sure to have surfactants in a cleansing routine.
And I'd like to have an oil, too.
I think this gives me the best of both worlds. Oil does dissolve oil, as like dissolves like. I figure if I have a layer of really dirty sebum, let's say 40% contaminated acid mantle. I slather on a layer of an oil-based cleanser, and the dirty oil dissolves into the new clean oil. Therefore, after mechanical rinsing, I am left with a layer of 10% contaminated oil.
And then I use a detergent-based cleanser to remove the now-easier-to-remove cleaner and less crusty layer of oil. And because I used an oil-based cleanser first, I can use a lower strength detergent-based cleanser.
Therefore, out of possible surfactants to choose from: anionic, cationic (which really isn't a choice as with their charge they cling to skin), zwitterionic, and nonionic...
I can choose the more gentle surfactants: zwitterionic and nonionic. So goodbye anionic SLS and soap.
Okay, now what cleansers contain only zwitterionic and/or nonionic surfactants? And is a larger brand so I can easily buy.
Well, these forums and this page http://www.makeupalley.com/user/notepad/various/
helped.
Anyway, I made a list like this:
DDF Gentle Non-Drying Cleanser:
Water, Decyl Glucoside, Cetostearyl Alcohol, Squalane, Aloe Barbadinsis Leaf Extract, Propylene Glycol, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Eequisetum Arvenses (Horsetail) Extract, Polysorbate 80, Thymus Bulgaris (Thyme) Extract, Triethanolamine, Carbomer, Symphytum Officinale (Comfrey) Leaf Extract, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, DMDM Hydantoin, Propylparaben, Blue #1
Main Cleansing Ingredient: Decyl Glucoside (nonionic)
Cellcosmet Purifying Gel
Water, Propylene Glycol, PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, PEG-7 GlycerylEthylhexanoate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, French Rose Extract, Matricaria Extract, White Oak Bark Extract, Carbomer, Triethanolaimine, Imidazolidnyl Urea, Sodium Chloride, Methylparaben, Disodium EDTA, Magnesium Nitrate, Phenoxyethanol, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Magnesium Chloride, Methylisothiazolinone, Butylparaben, Ethylparaben, Propylparaben, Isobutylparaben, FD&C Blue No. 1 (CI 42090)
Main Cleansing Ingredient: Cocamidopropyl Betaine (zwitterionic), [PEG-7 GlycerylEthylhexanoate (nonionic), PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil (nonionic). These two are surfactants, but I think they're used for thickenining, emulsifying and not for cleansing.]
Jurlique Ultra Sensitive Face Wash
Aqua (Water); Cocamidopropyl Betaine; Macadamia ternifolia Seed Oil; Glyceryl Cocoate; Xanthan Gum; Lithospermum erythrorhizon (Groomwell) Root Extract; Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride; Zanthoxylum alatum (Sichuan Peppercorn) Extract; Oleyl Alcohol; Lavandula angustifolia (Lavender) Oil; Hydroxymethylglycinate; Lactic Acid; Lecithin; Chamomilla recutita (Matricaria); Melaleuca alternifolia (Tea Tree) Leaf Oil.
Main Cleansing Ingredient: Cocamidopropyl Betaine (zwitterionic), Glyceryl Cocoate (nonionic)
Bioderma Crealine
Aqua, PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides, propylene glycol, cucumis sativus (cucumber) extract, fructo-oligosaccharides, mannitol, xylitol, rhamnose, disodium edta, cetrimonium bromide
Main Cleansing Ingredient: PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides (nonionic)
I've looked at things like:
YonKa Gel Nettoyant
Dermalogica Ultracalming
other DDF, Jurlique, etc.
and they contain anionic surfactants.
And I've heard recs for Avene. But the Gentle Mild Cleanser has an oil as the 2nd ingredient. And I think I'd like a non-oil containing 2nd cleanser, as I'm not looking for the 1 cleanser to do it all. And cleansers with oil usually leave a film on my face. Oh, for this reason I'm less interested in the Jurlique, too.
And the:
Avene Deep Pore Foaming Cleanser
Avene Thermal Spring Water (Avene Aqua), Stearic Acid, PEG-12, Glycerin, Decyl Glucoside, Potassium Hydroxide, Cocamide DEA, Water(Aqua), lauric Acid, Peg-2 Sterate, Palmitic Acid, Butylparaben, Cetrimonium Bromide, Ethylparaben, Methylparaben, Phenoxyethanol, Propylparaben, Salicylic Acid, Zinc Gluconate
While containing no anionic surfactants, does contain Potassium Hydroxide, one of the strongest bases in the world.
Anyway, so I'm thinking an oil first and then a gentle cleanser is the way to go. Anyone else think this?
I'm using Shu Uemura (normal) and Eve Lom at the moment. I don't believe the hoopla about mineral oil. And the myristate thing - well, I'll be following with a detergent-based cleanser.
So the detergent-based cleansers I mentioned. DDF and Bioderma do well on MUA. And Cellcosmet and Bioderma do well here. However, the Cellcosmet seems to have a really long list, all full of chemicals. I think I'll try the DDF and Bioderma first.
Um, sorry if there's no clear direction to this post. I just wanted to post some thoughts on cleansers and see what other people have been thinking. |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:20 am |
Oh yes, I'm not sure what to think about some of the new cleansers popping up in Product Reviews. Such as the Primavera.
Jojoba oil is the 2nd ingredient. While Decyl glucoside (nonionic) is the 3rd ingredient. And later on there's Sodium stearoyl lactylate (anionic).
Is this an oil cleanser or a detergent cleanser or a combo cleanser? I don't know. You don't have to have an oil as your first ingredient to call yourself an oil-based cleanser -- just look at Fancl's cleansing oil. |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:07 am |
| RMB- very intersting post! I'll still need to do a little research to decipher it all, LOL! In the meantime though, I'm curious what you think of Juice Beauty Cleansers (Cocamidopropyl Betaine based), and 100% Pure Cleansers (again, Cocamidopropyl Betaine). I like both of these because they are Cocamidopropyl Betaine-based, but they don't have some of the nasties that the other cleansers have. |
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27, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes, possibly the palest woman alive... |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:12 am |
RMB your knowledge of surfactants is pretty thourough. I had never heard the word zwitterionic before! Where did you learn so much about cleanser ingredients?
Regardless of the fact that I am not as well versed in surfactants as you are I reached a similar conclusion on using a cleansing oil followed by a gentle cleanser. I have experience with 3 of the cleansers on your list and two of them I have actually used in a cleansing oil+cleanser fashion. Lately I have just been using cleansing oil (Amore Pacific) in the evening and using the Cellcosmet Gel in the morning and this seems to be working okay for me but I haven't been doing this long enough to know if it will cause problems or not. (Actually my pores and acne have been better since I have been using only the cleansing oil in the evening but there are so many variables at play here that I wouldn't want to say that the improvements are due to my cleansing routine alone.)
Anyway onto the list of cleansers!
I used the Bioderma Crealine with Shiseiso Cleansing Oil and this combination worked very well. The Bioderma is a very gentle cleanser and once you get the hang of using a rinseless cleanser it is easy to use. It never overdries! This cleanser is one of those products that I don't always have but when I don't have it I keep thinking that maybe I should buy it. I am actually considering using this as my morning cleanser eventually.
I used the Cellcosmet Gel cleanser with both the Kanebo Cleansing Oil and the Kose Sekisho Cleansing oil and this combination worked well too. The Cellcosmet does not overdry either and is a very good cleanser. It may have a few more chemicals than some of us would like but it is not at all irritating and I have very sensitive skin. It was during my Kose+Cellcosmet phase that I decided to only use the cleansing oil and use the Cellcosmet in the morning.
I used the Jurlique Ultra Sensitive cleanser for about a year and did not use another cleanser with it. This cleanser actually did overdry the skin around my nose and I wasn't even using a cleansing oil beforehand! So I would really not recommend it if you are looking for a very gentle cleanser.
I say start with the Bioderma. It is cheap and has a nice short ingredient list. But the Cellcosmet is also very nice.... |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:24 am |
Hi Manslayerliz:
Juice Beauty Green Apple Cleansing Gel
organic juices of pyrus malus (apple) juice, citrus medica limonum (lemon) juice, vitis vinifera (white grape) juice & aloe barbadensis leaf juice, organic raw cane sugar (glycolic), organic botanical extracts of taraxacum officinale (dandelion) leaf, melissa offficinalis (lemon balm) leaf & salvia officinalis (sage) leaf, organic honey, organic algae extract, tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), retinyl palmitate (vitamin A), glycerin, sodium carboxymethyl lauryl glucoside, cocamidopropyl betaine, sodium hydroxide, sclerotium gum, potassium sorbate, xanthan gum, benzyl alcohol, phenoxyethanol, disodium edta, azulene, citrus reticulata (mandarin), litsea cubeba (may chang) & cinnamomum camphora (ho wood) pure essential oils
Main Cleansing Ingredient:
sodium carboxymethyl lauryl glucoside (I think this is nonionic.) cocamidopropyl betaine (zwitterionic)
You're right, this has mild surfactants. However, I don't like the sodium hydroxide in the formulation. Sodium hydroxide is lye, and it's one of the most alkaline substances on Earth. If you touched it straight, you'd get a chemical burn. I'm guessing they have it in here to control the pH b/c there are so many acidic juices at the beginning - just a guess. I'd probably not pick this one.
I looked at the 100% Eucalyptus Seafoam. There's cocamidopropyl betaine, which is fine. I don't think there are any problems surfactants-wise, but whether the other ingredients work for you, I don't know. I was actually really interested in this line, until I emailed them and was quoted an uncomfortably high shipping charge. They should offer other shipping options. But if I were back in the States, I'd definitely try it.
However, I'm going to be honest and say I like "luxurious" or East-West tech-meets-traditional medicine products more than the homemade/natural vibe kind. So it wouldn't be a regular cleanser for me.
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Other than soap, which has a pH which is simply too high, I don't want to come off as Chicken Little when it comes to surfactants.
Growing up, I'm sure I used boatloads of SLS - my parents didn't know any better.
I'm just thinking that now that I have a choice of what to buy. Why not buy something with mild surfactants.
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But in general, mild surfactants do mean diminished cleansing ability. That makes sense right? The stuff that really tackles dirt and grime, also is harsher on the skin. While the stuff that does a lighter job on dirt and grime also is less harsh on the skin.
Which is why I really think - if you go a gentle cleanser route - you need an oil-based cleanser first to get rid of makeup, sunblock,etc.
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I kind of get peeved when MUA peeps give a bad review b/c a gentle cleanser didn't take off all their gunk. I wonder if it makes the industry make weird Frankenstein cleansers that combine every cleansing technology in the book when having perhaps something that both is ultra gentle and takes off waterproof makeup isn't possible. Just take an extra step.
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Hi Theresa,
I am just learning about this stuff from the perspective of a layperson, and trying to brush up on some high school and college chemistry.
I could be off on some things, and just wanted to start some kind of discussion so we could all brainstorm together.
The sites I first visited to delve deeper into cleansers were the following:
http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic508.htm
http://www.skintherapyletter.com/2003/8.3/1.html
and a lot of wikipedia stuff on surfactants, detergents, soap, etc.
This was also a good general lay-of-the-land site:
http://www.aussiesoapsupplies.com.au/jude/surfactantbasics.htm
However, I don't believe everything on there, as I think they go easy on the ingredients they sell.
And then if I read that "so and so is bad because it raises pH" I went to PubMed, etc. places to see what raised pH meant for the skin.
I'm just trying to develop an idea of how best to tackle cleansing my skin.
I really appreciated your thoughts in a sunblock post. After your research I believe you think it's best to use a physical sunblock for everyday-wear. While you could do a Euro for those special times when you know you're going to get a lot of sun. |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:05 am |
RMB you have done some good work on researching surfactants and cleansers. I think I can add more to this information and perhaps clarify a few points.
First, let's define surfactant. The word is actually the short version of surface active agent. A surface active agent is usually a compound that has a dual function, it will have an "Oil loving" section to the molecule and a "water loving" section as well. The oil loving section works by attaching itself to oils and oil soluble materials. The water loving section works by making this new "goo" somewhat water soluble or at least rinsible. Thus, the dirty oily stuff gets picked up and rinsed away. Surface active agents also change the surface tension of the water on the surface, making things easier to rinse off.
Now, keep in mind there are surfactant type cleansing formulas AND "cleansing oils". These cleansing oils are actually oil based formulas with no foaming type surfactants in them at all. I've made a few of them and they usually consist of a small combination of materials like macadamia oil, mineral oil, and a PEG type material that would be water soluble, but oil dispersible. These all work on the "HLB" principle. This is known as the hydrophilic/lipophilic balance. All materials are either water loving, oil loving, or somewhere in between and get a value ranking of between 1 and 18. 1 is super oil loving, and 18 is super water loving. So, when you put a cleansing oil together, you use oil loving low HLB materials with at least one PEG that has a high HLB to make it rinse off easy with water after the oils have dissolved your oil based make-ups. Cleansing Oil formulas work quite well if you want to avoid the foaming surfactant type of materials.
Keep in mind that just because something foams doesn't mean that it is a superior cleanser. Foaming is just a mechanical means of lifting dirt and oils so that they can be rinsed away. Many consumers mistakenly think that in order to clean well a product has to foam really well. Not necessarily true, and Cleansing Oil formulas are a case in point.
Now, on to the various formulas that you have described:
The DDF formula has Decyl Glucoside. There is a BIG reason why you don't see Decyl Glucoside in a lot of cleansers. It's because it is inherently STICKY material and people just don't normally like it. Because of the stickiness that it creates in formulas, formulas of this type usually never get past a company's marketing department. Our company has been working on some of our own raw materials made from jojoba to try to reduce some of the stickiness of the Decyl Glucoside. We've had some success and may put out some formulas later in 2007.
I would not call Cocamidopropyl Betaine a "main cleansing agent". I like the material and it is a good foam booster, but it is almost always formulated in as a secondary cleanser along with the good old standbys...Sodium Lauryl Sulfate and Sodium Laureth Sulfate. If a formula has only CAPB as the foamer/cleanser, the cleaning ability is going to be limited.
The Cellcosmet formula as you can see uses two PEGs in a heavier loading than the CAPB. That is because they are relying on these mid-range HLB PEGs to attach to the oils and make them water soluble for easy rinse off. The CAPB here just adds some foaming to make it seem (consumer perception) that big time cleaning is going on.
Once again the Jurlique Ultra Sensitive is just relying on CAPB as a foamer and little else. So the name is correct, this will be mild for ultra sensitive skin, but I think its cleansing ability will be very limited.
The Bioderma Crealine is close to being a "cleansing oil" type formula although they use a lot of water in it. The PEG-6 material is the one that attaches to the oil and dirt and makes it water soluble on rinse off.
There is something I really don't like about the ingredients list in the Avene Deep Pore formula. It is not following INCI convention by using the term "Avene Thermal Spring Water" in the ingredients list. Water....is water....is water....and the ONLY INCI name that should ever be used for water is "water". They are trying to pull a fast one here and make the product sound special in some way. This ingredient does not make it special. In addition the potassium hydroxide is not in the formula for cleansing. It is in the formula to neutralize the stearic acid which forms a nice stearate type lotion. The decyl glycoside is really doing the work in this product, and it may also be sticky feeling.
If you want to do a good job of cleaning make up off of the face I would use a two part cleaning method.
1) Go out and buy a good "cleansing oil" type of formula. This formula will have oils in it as well as a PEG or two and that is about it. There will be little or no water in the formula and it will look like an oil, but it won't be a problem if you don't like oils on your face. Remember, you are simply dissolving the oil based products from your face and rinsing it off with water. The rinse off will look "milky white" because the PEGs are emulsifying the oils with the water and washing them away. Thus, the cleansing oil doesn't stay on your skin very long, and rinses off completely.
2) I would then find a mild cleanser with a surfactant system that you prefer and foam away the remaining dirts and oils, if any remain after the cleansing oil treatment.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:50 am |
| RMB wrote: |
You're right, this has mild surfactants. However, I don't like the sodium hydroxide in the formulation. Sodium hydroxide is lye, and it's one of the most alkaline substances on Earth. If you touched it straight, you'd get a chemical burn. I'm guessing they have it in here to control the pH b/c there are so many acidic juices at the beginning - just a guess. I'd probably not pick this one. |
RMB I see sodium hydroxide in alot of products and in fact I use a product everyday (Differin Gel) that has this as the very last ingredient. I always thought that as long as it was present in a very small amount and as long as the final pH of the product was acceptable then there are no problems with using a product that contains this. Although in miranets Zenbiotic review we did discuss this ingredient and some interesting points were raised. I get the impression that you would rather not use any products that contain this. If this is the case, why?
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| I really appreciated your thoughts in a sunblock post. After your research I believe you think it's best to use a physical sunblock for everyday-wear. While you could do a Euro for those special times when you know you're going to get a lot of sun. |
I am using physical sunscreens for both everyday and days in the sun. I still have a lot of research to do on the Euros, PPD and UVA protection in general and am not yet convinced that the Euros are the best way to go. I haven't really been doing any sunscreen research lately but will eventually get around to it.....
John,
What is your opinion on using just a cleansing oil and not following it with another cleanser?
Also, is there anything in the Bioderma that would cause my skin to feel oilier the day I use it? I was using it as my morning cleanser for a while and notice that on the days that I used it my skin seemed to be oilier that day (my skin would actually feel less oily on days when I just used water to cleanse). BTW I am not talking about how my skin felt right after using it but how it felt all day.
It sounds like PEGs are the ingredients to have in a cleansing oil. Are there other ingredients that would perform the same function or should I be looking only for PEGs? Maybe when I have the chance I should just start a post where I can list the ingredients of several cleansing oils and see what you think?
Theresa |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:05 pm |
Theresa, I have to agree with you on the sodium hydroxide comment. If sodium hydroxide was to touch your skin it would cause some nasty damage. However, when used in cosmetic formulas it is loaded at perhaps 1% or less. AND, it is usually a sodium hydroxide SOLUTION of perhaps 20% or 30% strength that is added at 1% or less. So, if you do the math, the concentration of pure sodium hydroxide in a formula is miniscule! It is used mainly to buffer pH or to neutralize fatty acids. It will not harm you when loaded into a cosmetic formula in a safe and responsible way. In addition, no formulator would overload NaOH in a formula. The final pH of the formula would be extremely high and nobody would allow that product to go out to market (they would get sued for sure!).
Now if you are talking about the Bioderma Crealine cleansing oil, this one is quite interesting. I am familiar with the PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides. It is made by Croda and I use that material as a solubilizer in some formulas that I make. It's in the cleanser to help attach to the oils on your face and emulsify them with water when rinse off happens. This one should rinse off completely when you use water and shouldn't leave an oily feeling on your face. I do see Propylene Glycol listed as the third ingredient. Perhaps they have overloaded the PG a little and this one is what you are feeling. Just try for a complete rinse off whenever you use this product....plenty of water during the rinse.
Finally, I feel that a well made cleansing oil formula can be enough to perform all the cleaning that you need. There may be some waterproof mascaras that may be hard to remove this way, but a good cleansing oil should take off most any makeup type product and leave your face "clean" without using foaming surfactants.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:59 pm |
| John, I'm really happy about your last note. This double cleansing is just too fussy for me and i hoped that my cleansing oil (EveLom cleansing pomade) will be good enough to wash away everything (i don't use water res. mascara or heavy make-up). |
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Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:07 pm |
| John C. Hill wrote: |
Now if you are talking about the Bioderma Crealine cleansing oil, this one is quite interesting. I am familiar with the PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides. It is made by Croda and I use that material as a solubilizer in some formulas that I make. It's in the cleanser to help attach to the oils on your face and emulsify them with water when rinse off happens. This one should rinse off completely when you use water and shouldn't leave an oily feeling on your face. I do see Propylene Glycol listed as the third ingredient. Perhaps they have overloaded the PG a little and this one is what you are feeling. Just try for a complete rinse off whenever you use this product....plenty of water during the rinse.
John |
John thanks for all your answers. On the Bioderma, I was suspecting that the PG might be the culprit. This cleanser is marketed as a no-rinse cleanser and that is how I used it so I wasn't rinsing it at all just blotting my face with a towel after using. If I buy this again I will try rinsing and see how it works. |
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Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:01 am |
Theresa
1. I didn't thank you earlier when you gave your impressions of so many of the cleansers I mentioned. Thanks!
I am really interested in the Bioderma now and will hopefully pick some up next trip to Hong Kong.
2. About sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide. This is just a personal thing. I got freaked out about stories of people getting concentrations wrong and having too much unreacted lye in their soap, and so maybe have an unjust bias toward these two substances.
John, could you explain how these are used in formulations a bit more? If strong base sodium hydroxide neutralizes an acid don't you get a salt and water. And so does that mean there are salts that aren't supposed to be in formulations left there? But you could remove the salts right? So then why is sodium hydroxide still left in the formulation? Why didn't I pay more attention in school?
John
Thank you for giving such a thorough answer to my post. It is much appreciated. Whoa, you introduced me to HLB values! Rock on!
I went to wikipedia and it says:
A value from 3 to 6 indicates a W/O emulsifier
A value from 7 to 9 indicates a wetting agent
A value from 8 to 12 indicates an O/W emulsifier
A value from 12 to 15 is typical of detergents
A value of 15 to 20 indicates a solubiliser or hydrotrope.
So, you recommended a medium value PEG for cleansing because it would like oil and water equally. Thereby it would take the oil off of the skin, and also be rinsable.
If it was too much one way or the other, it either wouldn't snatch onto the oil, or wouldn't be rinsable, right? Awesome, I love it when things fall into place.
Taking in your comments, I reorganized the list above based on surfactant systems. How does this look?
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(The following are cleansers that do not rely on anionic surfactants for cleansing.)
Cleansers that rely on PEG compounds:
Bioderma Crealine
Cellcosmet Purifying Gel
(Your take is that PEG compounds can be fine on their own for cleansing.)
Cleansers that rely on Decyl Glucoside:
DDF Gentle Non-Drying Cleanser
(Your take is a decyl glucoside based cleanser could work - your company is coming up with formulations - if the stickiness is somehow overcome.)
Cleansers that rely on Cocamidopropyl Betaine
Jurlique Ultra Sensitive Face Wash
(Your take is a cleanser that relies on Cocamidopropyl Betaine is too weak.)
Therefore, when you want a cleanser that is not an oil cleanser (DHC, Shu Uemura, etc.) When you want a cleanser that doesn't contain anionic surfactants. Cleansers based on the following are good options:
1. PEG-based
2. Decyl Glucoside-based (if the stickiness is overcome)
I hope I'm interpreting your comments all right. Thank you again, John.
lin23
Using 2 cleansers is probably another personal thing of mine. I've written about it in another post; I just always feel there is a film remaining when I use an oil-based cleanser.
And therefore I'm trying to find gentle surfactant cleansers to remove it.
But, I'm liking Eve Lom much more now. I think it was DaisyinLondon who said you don't have to go through the whole routine. That changed things tremendously! |
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Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:33 am |
RMB seems like we are never too old to learn something new, eh? I just love learning stuff from people on this board and that's why I like to share what I know as well.
I found this document on the web that speaks about how Lecithin is used in the food industry as an emulsifier. However, it has some great, simple diagrams on how surfactants and emulsifiers work. It uses the tried and true "stick figure" diagram to explain their function. The "head" part of the stick figure is the Oil Loving part of the molecule. The "stick body" is the water loving part. This should help you visualize how PEGs and other surfactants work in cleansing oils from the face without the need for foaming.
http://www.admworld.com/mktcolpdf/euLecithinsEmulsification.pdf
In addition, I think it was kind of ironic how this topic came up yesterday, because I was formulating a "Cleansing Oil" formula while we were discussing the topic.
Here is the formula that I made yesterday for a client in Asia. I normally don't use Mineral Oil, preferring plant based materials, but because of price concerns in the asian market, I was forced to use the low priced ingredient, mineral oil.
PEG-16 Macadamia Glycerides 10.0% (Floratech)
Ethyl Macadamiate 36.0% (Floratech)
Mineral Oil 38.4% (Ikeda Corporation)
Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil 15.0% (Floratech)
Tocopherol 0.1% (Cognis)
Fragrance 0.5% (Orchidia)
Water "Quantity Sufficient"
This formula is a crystal clear, oil appearing product and works really well at removing oil based cosmetics from the skin. Notice that I use PEG-16 Macadamia to get the desired HLB for oil cleansing and then rinse off. The oils that I used are ethyl macadamiate (beautiful dry, high spreading material derived from macadamia oil which is extremely close in fatty acid profile to the skin's own lipid profile), sunflower oil and mineral oil (for cost consideration). I used only a few drops of water in the formula. This is a "trick" for this particular type of cleansing oil formula. Without the water, this formula is not crystal clear. But, by adding a few drops of water the HLB ratio of all the ingredients is shifted to a slightly higher value. As the HLB is shifted, the whole product becomes crystal clear (isn't science cool?!)... and the product also becomes slightly easier to rinse off.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:36 pm |
| This is a very interesting thread that i missed and just thought i would bump it up. Katee had posted up a link for her shampoo variation recipes and i am interested in making my own since i too, go through a lot of shampoo. i am a looking for a good base without the harmful sulfates so found this thread very helpful. |
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about to hit my 40s, retin-a user, differin, LRP |
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Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:00 pm |
what a great thread! it's like i just had a skincare lecture!
is cleansing oil a necessary step for people who doesnt wear makeups but sunscreens? |
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Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:16 pm |
I don't think it's a requirement that you need an oil-based cleanser to remove sunblock. I think it more depends on your sunblock, your cleanser, and you.
If you feel like you're getting everything off with just your normal cleanser, then I'm sure that's fine.
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On whether to double-cleanse or just to use an oil-based cleanser...
It's funny, I actually was hanging out with a semi-famous makeup artist over the holidays, and I asked him how he removes makeup.
He said if there's makeup, you use an oil-based cleanser. And if you use an oil-based cleanser, you use a normal cleanser afterwards.
I already mentioned I believe in double-cleansing above. What the makeup artist told me just further pushed me in that direction. However, I want to say that this is just this guy's opinion. Maybe there are other makeup artists who think just an oil-based cleanse is enough. This guy is certainly no chemist and has no scientific data to back up his thoughts on facial cleansing.
However, he does makeup for a lot of magazine shoots and TV shows where I am. I thought it'd perhaps be of use to add his views into the mix, as a person who deals with makeup and cleansing of said makeup all the time.
He said that in his experience girls who just used oil-based cleansers, over time, developed more sensitive skin. And that's why you need to double cleanse, and that's why he always recommends double-cleansing.
I don't know the science behind his observation. And this guy was certainly no deep thinker. External beauty - just the "how to get it" and not the "why does it work" - was all that seemed important to him. Anyway, was just the one cleanse not removing makeup impurities already on the skin? Was the one cleanse introducing further impurities and not removing them - more oil, chemical emollients, etc. (This is my guess. I have doubts as to how well non-detergent-based cleansers clean normal skin. Much less skin plus all the oil you added to it.)
Anyway, it was a fun talk. My conclusions: If you're not following an oil-based cleanser with a normal cleanser and you think everything's working fine, just keep doing what you're doing. However, if you haven't changed anything in your routine, and notice you're skin is becoming more sensitive, this might be the culprit.
Theresa, I know you already have sensitive skin, so you might want to keep what I just wrote in mind.
Oh, I also asked which cleansing oil he recommends. He said he's used a bunch, and threw out the names DHC, Fancl, Shu as examples. He said he thinks they're all pretty much the same. So I guess if you have one you like, just keep using that one. |
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Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:35 pm |
I tried and aboslutely love the cleansers by Geografx - both Tea Tree and Azulene.
The ingredients are (Tea tree one): Watre, Decyl Polydlucose, Veg. Glycerin, Apple Cider Vinegar, Xan. gum, Lapacho Bark extract, Willow Bark extract, Tea Tree Leaf Oil, Lemon Peel Oil, Grapefruit Peel Oil, Rosemary Oil and Patchouli Oil.
THey do the job (and I wear makeup and sunscreen), do not irritate my very sensitive skin, feel nice and priced reasonably.
HTH,
Lucy. |
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Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:25 pm |
| RMB yes if i use oil-based cleasner, i do always follow with my normal cleasner, just on the safe side, because i heard many friends who use Shu umera cleansing oil only developed acnes, and they concluded combo/oily skins shouldnt use oil-based clesner, but i figured out the reason they developed acnes is because the residues of the oil is not removed completely. |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:06 am |
| RMB wrote: |
Theresa, I know you already have sensitive skin, so you might want to keep what I just wrote in mind.
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RMB I will certainly keep it in mind! I wonder what kind of time frame we are talking about for developing more sensitive skin over time?
My personal experience so far is that my skin has improved since I have been using only cleansing oil in the evening. I did find that the Kose Cleansing Oil was causing problems with acne because it did not completely rinse off but the Amore Pacific cleansing oil does seem to completely rinse. Maybe it depends on the cleansing oil and how well it rinses. All I know is that right now my skin is the nicest it has been in a long time (less pimples, clogged pores improved quite a bit, less dehydrated and less sensitive). I am not saying that all this is due to using the Amore Pacific cleansing oil by itself in the evenings but it would appear that the cleansing oil alone is at least not causing problems and may be helping. My speculation is that one cleansing is enough provided that the cleansing oil is one that will rinse completely and that adding an extra cleansing step (at least for me at this time of the year) is not necessary and might actually be counterproductive in that it removes good stuff that doesn't need to be removed.
BTW the only time I have found a cleansing oil alone to not be suficcient is when I use the Shiseido Ultimate Sun Protenction Sunscreen SPF 55. When I use this I always follow my cleansing oil with another cleanser and sometimes I still feel that I haven't removed all the sunscreen!! |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:01 am |
Dear RMB, and all the others from this excellent thread,
I’ve tried “double cleansing” for some two weeks (end of Nov.) – in spite of the fact that DC is against my philosophy of “simple routine”. I used EveLom cleansing pomade + Cellcosmet cleansing gel. The result : my dry (but not exactly sensitive) skin became even more dry, irritated and got break-outs. My skin is just not able to accept “over-treating”. I use a water soluable mascara almost daily, but make-up only occasionally (a very light layer of MMU) and think that I simply don’t need any double cleansing. My intention with cleansing is actually getting rid of all the pollution and dirt one gets on the skin nowadays.
I made another test recently : using EpidermiXII daily (again, influenced by another thread here…). And again : irritations, quite a lot of break-outs. So I decided : daily microdermabrasion is not for me either, definitely not during the dry winter time.
Never change the winner team : I’m going back to EveLom (at least for a while, until reading another thread…)
regards,
lin |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:04 am |
Theresa - I wonder what it is about the Amore Pacific oil that makes it rinse off so much better? Could you please post the ingredients when you have the time?
Lin23 - I'm sorry double-cleansing didn't work out for you. And your routine sounds so good, too. What with the Eve Lom being one of the most-raved about oil-based cleansers here, and the Cellcosmet being one of the most-raved cleansers in general.
I read your skin is prone to dryness on another thread just now. Do you mind my asking what kind of moisturizer you're using?
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Your comments have made me start to think about what the makeup artist guy said again. I didn't think about how the rest of a person's routine might affect the cleansing part of their routine. I did ask about what he and the women he does makeup for prefer to use. He likes Japanese brands - especially Kose - and the women like Japanese and Swiss brands. What I'm getting at is there's not a lot of surface exfoliation like acids/abrasives going on there. I haven't thought a lot about how "controlled damage" affects how one should cleanse.
I guess if I were going to incorporate acids/abrasives, I'd not wear makeup during that time - not that I would anyway - so an oil-based cleanser wouldn't even be a part of my routine, so I wouldn't even be double cleansing. |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:44 am |
| RMB wrote: |
Theresa - I wonder what it is about the Amore Pacific oil that makes it rinse off so much better? Could you please post the ingredients when you have the time?
Lin23 - I'm sorry double-cleansing didn't work out for you. And your routine sounds so good, too. What with the Eve Lom being one of the most-raved about oil-based cleansers here, and the Cellcosmet being one of the most-raved cleansers in general.
I read your skin is prone to dryness on another thread just now. Do you mind my asking what kind of moisturizer you're using?
---
Your comments have made me start to think about what the makeup artist guy said again. I didn't think about how the rest of a person's routine might affect the cleansing part of their routine. I did ask about what he and the women he does makeup for prefer to use. He likes Japanese brands - especially Kose - and the women like Japanese and Swiss brands. What I'm getting at is there's not a lot of surface exfoliation like acids/abrasives going on there. I haven't thought a lot about how "controlled damage" affects how one should cleanse.
I guess if I were going to incorporate acids/abrasives, I'd not wear makeup during that time - not that I would anyway - so an oil-based cleanser wouldn't even be a part of my routine, so I wouldn't even be double cleansing. |
Dear RMB,
I guess you read the “cleansing thread” where I discussed lots of OCM-type cleansers with Daisylondon. Due to my dry skin I cannot use foaming cleansers (well, I just have that “stripping” feeling from them). Some 4-5 years ago I fund EveLom, and I immediately had that “not stripped but clean skin” feeling of it - also loved the routine from the first usage on. I very much agree with Ms. Lom that good cleansing is the basic of good skin care and find that “oily” cleansers are the most suitable for my skin (I’m very much curious about Theresa’s Amore Pacific cleansing oil and looking forward to trying it soon…). I also have the feeling that my skin is thankful for using products sparingly, doesn’t like “piling”. So after EveLom in the evening I use PSF’s O˛ serum and Remergent’s DNA repair only (plus eye cream, primed with some HA). My a.m. moisturizer is Regenetic from Valmont at the moment (primed with Skinmedica’s VitC).
Regards,
lin |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:31 pm |
| RMB wrote: |
| Theresa - I wonder what it is about the Amore Pacific oil that makes it rinse off so much better? Could you please post the ingredients when you have the time? |
I think that quite a few of these cleansing oils rinse off well and that it is not necessarily something unique to the Amore Pacific one. When I was using the Shiseido and Kanebo ones my skin felt clean after just the oil cleansing. I just followed with a second cleanser because I was paranoid that I wasn't "really" cleaning my skin. I have tried the DHC cleansing oil by itself and that cleansed so well that my skin was actually overdried!
Here are the ingredients for the AP Cleansing oil: Hydrogenated polydecene, c12-15 alkyl benzoate, peg-20 glyceryl trilostearate, polyoxyethylene monoisosterate (8E.O.), isopropyl palmitate, polysorbate 80, hydrogenated isocetyl olivate, hydrogenated olive oil unsaponifiables, meadowfoam see oil, safflower seed oil, glyceryl arachidonate, glyceryl linoleate, glyceryl linolenate, macadamia ternifolia seed oil, pyllostachis bambusoides sap, jojoba seed oil, tocopherol, grape seed oil, fragrance.
| Quote: |
Your comments have made me start to think about what the makeup artist guy said again. I didn't think about how the rest of a person's routine might affect the cleansing part of their routine. I did ask about what he and the women he does makeup for prefer to use. He likes Japanese brands - especially Kose - and the women like Japanese and Swiss brands. What I'm getting at is there's not a lot of surface exfoliation like acids/abrasives going on there. I haven't thought a lot about how "controlled damage" affects how one should cleanse.
I guess if I were going to incorporate acids/abrasives, I'd not wear makeup during that time - not that I would anyway - so an oil-based cleanser wouldn't even be a part of my routine, so I wouldn't even be double cleansing. |
I really think that the use of acids/abrasives and other forms of controlled damage mean that gentler cleansing is needed. When you use these products you are already injuring the skin barrier and drying your skin. I used to use Dove soap to cleanse and except for cold/dry times of the year this rarely caused any problems for me. Once I started using retinoids my skin could not tolerate soap at all! My husband uses soap everyday and doesn't moisurize but then again he uses no acids or retinoids. I just find that the gentle cleansers work the best for me. And it seems like using an oily cleanser may possibly work the best of all! Since I do wear sunscreen everyday I want to make sure that I don't leave any sunscreen residue and I feel that the cleansing oil is doing a better job than a gentle cleanser like the Cellcomset Gel at removing sunscreen (or makeup when I wear it). So I guess I am saying that I don't feel the need to double cleanse but I prefer that my single step be a cleansing oil or similar. |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:44 pm |
Lin23 - I know the sulfates (Ammonium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Ammonium Laureth Sulfate, Sodium Laureth Sulfate) have great detergency and foaming properties, which is why they're so commonly used. Perhaps the cleanser that turned you toward oil-based cleansers contained a sulfate? Hmm, I wonder why Eve Lom alone works better for you than Cellcosmet alone. I've used the O2 with the DNA Repair, too. I was just wondering if your moisturizer contained glycerin, which is a common and I think good ingredient.
Theresa - Thanks for posting the ingredients to the Amore and the Kanebo. Sorry, to make you so busy.  Your liking the Amore so much has made me wonder...
We all call these OCM / oil cleansers. Now whether they're based on mineral, olive, rice bran, or some other oil - I'm not sure how important that is. However, I think it's very interesting that some of these cleansing oils aren't based on an oil at all. I mean if the main ingredient isn't an oil, do we still call it a cleansing oil?
On the list of oil cleansers I posted, Fancl and MAC both have Cetyl Ethylhexanoate, a synthetic emollient apparently, as the main ingredient. And the Amore you like has another syn ingredient - Hydrogenated polydecene - as its main component. And then surfactants, and I don't see a lipid until way down the list.
(What follows is pure speculation.)
What I'm wondering is perhaps we all knew of the cleansing properties of oil. And so all these oil cleansers sprang up, of course with an oil as the main ingredient. However, oil is hard to rinse off b/c oil and water don't mix. Well, now some smart companies are developing cleansing oils where they use an inert emollient as the main ingredient and then actual oils later on. They've found these formulations clean as well as real oil-based formulations and rinse off better. So maybe Fancl, MAC, Amore Pacific and whatever cleansing oils that don't use oil as the main ingredient are the "best" cleansing oils to get? |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:40 pm |
| I tried Cetaphil, it was very gentle and designed for sensitive skin. |
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Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:57 pm |
| Did you try cleansing milk, it's good for dry skin in general |
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