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What exactly is Tinsorb? chemical/physical/stable?

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Cautious newbie
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Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:30 pm      Reply with quote
Sorry, i'm sure this is posted somewhere but I can't find it.

My understanding is that LRP doesn't use Tinsorb but Avene does. Is Tinsorb supposed to be very effective for UVA protection, better than Parsol and Meroxyl used in LRP?

can anyone answer this or lead me to a link?

thanks!

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Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:16 pm      Reply with quote
Tinosorb is chemical. Better than parsol imo and more stable. Avene's suncreens are generally pretty high PPD. Im not sure if its better than mexoryl or if they're pretty much on par with each other.

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Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:03 pm      Reply with quote
Try the CIBA website for more information?
http://www.cibasc.com/ko/index/ind-index/ind-per_car/skin_care___sun_care_actives/tinosorb-registered-_uv_filters.htm

Also has a sunscreen simulator for you to calculate the protection if you have the concentrations of the various active ingredients.
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Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:52 am      Reply with quote
great, thanks. if tinsorb might be just as good as meroxyl, i might as well just stick with LRP, which i'm familiar with.

in canada, we have the white line of Avene, but not the orange. The white line i think is all physical and leaves a white film on your face. I'm hesitant to buy the orange line without being able to test it...but if LRP with meroxyl is just as good, i'll skip the hassle of it all.

i'm going to go play with the calculator thingy now.

THANKS!

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Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:48 pm      Reply with quote
I'm in Vancouver and have seen both the 'white' and 'orange' lines of sunscreens. Tested both and decided to get the orange. So far, so good. Although it has a bit thicker consistency than I like to put on my face. Next time I may try the white line.

Saw both at Shoppers Drug Mart and London Drugs.

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Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:17 pm      Reply with quote
Well, I've decided that the orange line just doesn't agree with my skin. I was constantly battling clogged pores, and ever since I've switched back tot he creme minerale (white avene spf 50), my skin has been much much happier.

My question is, how in the world do you use that ciba calculator if you do not know what the percentages of the active ingredients are?

Also, can someone definitely say whether or not tinosorbs are more photostable on their own, or whether they will, like a mexoryl based ss, degrade upon application of mineral based powder? Is it the tinosorb technology that makes the ss stable, or must tinosorbs be stabilized with another ingredient?
Just curious.

--avalange

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Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:03 pm      Reply with quote
Hey Avalange,

Do you recall where you got the info about mineral makeup breaking down meroxyl in sunscreens? I'd never heard that before, but as the knee-jerk suspicious gal that I am, I was just WAITING for the potential bad news about these ingredients, hahaha. I'd be curious to look into that issue more, because I'm leaning more and more towards trying a meroxyl or tinosorb sun protection formula.

Also, to clarify, the "orange" line you referred to was the meroxyl-containing line, right? Do you know if all meroxyl creams are heavier, or was it just that formula, in your opinion?

Thanks!

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Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:11 pm      Reply with quote
ginnielizz wrote:
Hey Avalange,

Do you recall where you got the info about mineral makeup breaking down meroxyl in sunscreens? I'd never heard that before, but as the knee-jerk suspicious gal that I am, I was just WAITING for the potential bad news about these ingredients, hahaha. I'd be curious to look into that issue more, because I'm leaning more and more towards trying a meroxyl or tinosorb sun protection formula.

Also, to clarify, the "orange" line you referred to was the meroxyl-containing line, right? Do you know if all meroxyl creams are heavier, or was it just that formula, in your opinion?

Thanks!


hey,

i am not even sure anymore. i was talking about the chemical line of ss made by avene--i don't think they are mexoryl based, but methoxycinnamate based... but i did here somewhere that mmu breaks down mexoryl too... I'm not sure if I've tried a mexoryl sunscreen or what the deal is with them--maybe someone here can elaborate?

--avalange

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Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:22 pm      Reply with quote
Ah, my bad, I thought you guys were discussing meroxyl. It actually makes more sense that mineral makeup would break down methoxycinnamate, as that's a much less stable compound. But I wouldn't turn down anyone elaborating about new chemical sunscreens, as my knowledge on them is sadly lacking!

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Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:59 pm      Reply with quote
avalange wrote:
My question is, how in the world do you use that ciba calculator if you do not know what the percentages of the active ingredients are?
--avalange


I don't think you can without the % of active ingredients. I know a lot of people on MUA actually contacts the manufacturers to get the %. Most are good at giving out info.

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Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:50 am      Reply with quote
ginnielizz wrote:
It actually makes more sense that mineral makeup would break down methoxycinnamate, as that's a much less stable compound.


That's what I thought too, but user sormuimui recently said that she read in a scientific journal that mmu only breaks down avobenzone, that the others are only broken down by light and when photostabilized by somethign like tinsorb, aren't affected by minerals.
none of this makes any sense to me anymore because my new bioderma ss, which is avo-based, has minerals and iron oxides in it... and avene is methoxycinnamate based, but also has tinosorbs and minerals.


--avalange

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Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:59 am      Reply with quote
Here's the main understanding I have so far:

Minerals like titanium and zinc will not break down in sunlight and are generally not reactive with other chemicals in SS.

Chemicals like methoxycinnamate AND avobenzone are not photostable, i.e. they break down when exposed to light.

Meroxyl and Tinosorb are supposed to be photostable like zinc and titanium, yet work against sun more in the way that methoxycinnamate and avobenzone work. I'd love to know if there's any "catch" or negative trick to these chemicals - in my opinion they're too new on the market to tell, but then again, they've been in Europe and elsewhere for ages.

Sadly, I don't have access to the medical journals I did in college, so it's harder to find real studies about these ingredients. Anyone who's savvy, I'd love a reply!

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Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:13 pm      Reply with quote
ginnielizz wrote:
methoxycinnamate and avobenzone work. I'd love to know if there's any "catch" or negative trick to these chemicals - in my opinion they're too new on the market to tell, but then again, they've been in Europe and elsewhere for ages.

Sadly, I don't have access to the medical journals I did in college, so it's harder to find real studies about these ingredients. Anyone who's savvy, I'd love a reply!


I've been trying to do this sort of research on tinosorb for a while. I'm neither a chemist nor a medical professional, so I'm not the ideal researcher on this topic, but I have found a few interesting articles on photostability and on safety. Worth noting: a couple are by CIBA scientists, and since they’re the creators of Tinosorb, they have an obvious interest…

Maybe I’m being overcautious, but I'll just post abstracts so as not to bring the wrath of the copyright lawyers on me. I hope the abstracts aren’t uselessly scanty. Obviously, the few articles here don’t cover every potential area of concern, so for all I know there could be all sorts of “negative catches” hiding in the background. I haven’t been researching mexoryl, so I can’t contribute anything there for the time being.


----
CHIMIA 2004, 58, No. 7/8
Chimia 58 (2004) 554–559
New UV Absorbers for Cosmetic
Sunscreens – A Breakthrough for thePhotoprotection of Human Skin
Bernd Herzog*, Dietmar Hüglin, Elek Borsos, Albert Stehlin, and Helmut Luther
Abstract: Two new UV filters for use in cosmetic sunscreens have been developed. Bis-ethylhexyloxyphenolmethoxyphenyl triazine (BEMT) is a hydroxy-phenyl-triazine derivative, which has been designed for optimal spectral performance, excellent photostability, and solubility in cosmetic oils. Methylene bis-benzotriazolyl tetramethylbutylphenolMBBT) is the active ingredient of a particulate UV-filter system, which is available as a50% dispersion of MBBT. Since the UV-attenuating efficacy depends strongly on particle size, the material is micronised to particle sizes below 200 nm. The mode of action of this photostable filter system is governed to about 90% by
absorption and 10% by scattering of UV light. Both filters show broad-spectrum characteristics with significant protection in the UVA range

[The abstract isn’t that informative, so I’ll just note that I believe this is by the creators of Tinosorb at CIBA. It has an interesting but very technical explanation on tinosorb’s photostability, how it dissipates absorbed energy and avoids breaking down. It also has comparisons to avobenzone and to zinc oxide.]



----
Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology 34, 287–291 (2001)
Lack of Binding to Isolated Estrogen or Androgen Receptors, and
Inactivity in the Immature Rat Uterotrophic Assay, of the Ultraviolet
Sunscreen Filters Tinosorb M-Active and Tinosorb S
J. Ashby,¤,1 H. Tinwell,¤ J. Plautz,y K. Twomey,¤ and P. A. Lefevre¤
¤Syngenta Central Toxicology Laboratory, Alderley Park, Macclesfield, Cheshire SK10 4TJ, United Kingdom;and yCiba Speciality Chemicals, 4002 Basel, Switzerland
The presence of structurally diverse chemicals as contaminants in the environment has led to concerns regarding their possible endocrine disturbing effects. Recently, some ultraviolet absorbing components of sunscreen preparations have given positive responses in assays monitoring estrogen-like activity both in vitro and in vivo. Consequently, two recently developed sunscreen components, Tinosorb M-active and
Tinosorb S, were evaluated using the in vitro estrogen and androgen receptor competitive binding assays. Neither compound gave a positive response in either of the assays, consistent with the large molecular dimensions of each chemical disfavoring binding to
the hormone receptors. Both of the chemicals were inactive in immature rat uterotrophic assays conducted using the subcutaneous route of administration. It is concluded that neither of these agents possess intrinsic estrogenic/antiestrogenic or androgenic/antiandrogenic activity. The several positive control chemicals
evaluated gave the expected positive responses in the assays used.
---
In vitro percutaneous absorption and in vivo stratum corneum distribution of an organic and a mineral sunscreen
Author Mavon, A; Miquel, C; Lejeune, O; Payre, B; Moretto, P
Source SKIN PHARMACOLOGY AND PHYSIOLOGY,vol.20,no.1,pp.10-20,2007

Abstract Sunscreens, whose main function is to protect the skin against the harmful effects of solar irradiation, should remain at the skin surface or impregnate the first layers of the stratum corneum only and not penetrate into the underlying living tissue. The goal of this work was to assess the penetration of titanium dioxide (TiO2) and methylene bis-benzotriazoyl tetramethylbutylphenol (MBBT), included in a broad-spectrum sunscreen formulation, into human skin in vivo, using the tape stripping method, and in vitro, using a compartmental approach. An additional objective was to propose an easy and minimally invasive approach to determining the percutaneous uptake of sunscreens following topical application. TiO2 and MBBT were quantified using colorimetric assay and HPLC analysis, respectively. The transmission electron microscopy and particle-induced Xray emission techniques were used to localize the TiO2 in skin sections. More than 90% of both sunscreens was recovered in the first 15 tape strippings. In addition we have shown that the remaining 10% did not penetrate the viable tissue, but was localized in the furrows and in the opened infundibulum. Less than 0.1% of MBBT was detected in the receptor medium, and no TiO2 was detected in the follicle, viable epidermis or dermis. Thus, this in vivo and in vitro penetration study showed an absence of TiO2 penetration into the viable skin layers through either transcorneal or transfollicular pathways and negligible transcutaneous absorption of MBBT. However, differences in distribution within the stratum corneum reinforced the need for a complementary approach, using minimally invasive in vivo methodology and in vitro compartmental analysis. This combination represents a well-adapted method for testing the safety of topically applied sunscreen formulations in real-life conditions. Copyright (c) 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel.


Volume 74, Issue 3 (September 2001)

Photochemistry and Photobiology
Article: pp. 401–406 | Abstract | PDF (188K)

Photostabilization of Butyl methoxydibenzoylmethane (Avobenzone) and Ethylhexyl methoxycinnamate by Bis-ethylhexyloxyphenol methoxyphenyl triazine (Tinosorb S), a New UV Broadband Filter¶
Eric Chatelain*, Bernard Gabard
Department of Biopharmacy, Spirig Pharma Ltd, Egerkingen, Switzerland
It is now well documented that chronic UVA exposure induces damage to human skin. Therefore, modern sunscreens should not only provide protection from both UVB and UVA radiation but also maintain this protection during the entire period of exposure to the sun. UVA filters, however, are rare and not sufficiently photostable. We investigated the effect of the introduction of a new UV filter, bis-ethylhexyloxyphenol methoxyphenyl triazine (Tinosorb S), in oil in water sunscreen formulations on the photostability of butyl methoxydibenzoylmethane (Avobenzone [AVB]) after irradiation with an optically filtered Xenon arc source (UV irradiance adjusted at 1 mean effective dose [MED]/min). With spectrophotometrical methods to assess the sun protection factor (SPF) and UVA ratio and chromatographical methods to determine the amount of UV filters recovered after irradiation we showed that Tinosorb S prevented the photodegradation of AVB in a concentration-dependent way, leading to a sustained SPF and UVA ratio even after irradiation with doses of up to 30 MED. Since AVB was shown to destabilize ethylhexyl methoxycinnamate (EHM) we tested the effect of Tinosorb S in sunscreens containing this UV filter combination. Here too Tinosorb S showed photoprotective properties toward both UV filters. Thus, Tinosorb S can be used successfully to improve the photostability and efficiency of sunscreens containing AVB and EHM.






Christelle Gélis, Stéphanie Girard, Alain Mavon, Maxence Delverdier, Nicole Paillous, Patricia Vicendo (2003)
Assessment of the skin photoprotective capacities of an organo-mineral broad-spectrum sunblock on two ex vivo skin models
Photodermatology, Photoimmunology & Photomedicine 19 (5), 242–253.
UV irradiation can cause cutaneous damage that may be specific according to the wavelength of UV rays. For example, damage from UVB irradiation manifests itself in the form of sunburn cells and enhancement of the expression of p53, while damage from UVA exposure results in an increase in the expression of vimentin. These reactions to UV irradiation were used in this work to evaluate the photoprotective capacities of two sunblock preparations that were applied to the surface of the skin. One sunblock preparation is a UVB absorber containing zinc oxide (ZnO) and titanium oxide (TiO2) exclusively. The other sunblock preparation is a new organo-mineral sunblock containing Tinosorb™ M, OCM, ZnO and TiO2. Evaluation of the photoprotective capacities of both preparations on hairless rat skin and on in vitro reconstructed human epidermis revealed that they were effective in preventing UVB-induced damage. In contrast, only the organo-mineral sunblock was effective in the prevention of UVA-specific damage such as dermal alterations characterized by the expression of vimentin. Furthermore, our data support the fact that hairless rat skin and in vitro reconstructed human epidermis are a reliable basis for the evaluation of the photoprotective capacities of various sunscreens against UVB and UVA damage.
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Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:41 pm      Reply with quote
Wow, thank you THANK YOU for posting these abstracts! Obviously it's not the whole picture, but I'm believing more and more that I need to try some Tinosorb or Meroxyl formulas for myself - damn that FDA for making them so hard to get. I wonder if I'm just being a knee-jerk hippie when it comes to trying these, always suspecting that there's some "catch" - they really do seem safer. Thanks again, this is much appreciated. I appreciate too that you recognize the potential bias in the sources. Smile That's my kinda paranoid research!

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Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:26 pm      Reply with quote
I love Tinsorb! I think it is considred a hybrid between chemical and physical. It is such an effective sunscreen. here is some more information about it:

http://www.smartskincare.com/skinprotection/sunblocks/sunblock_bisoctrizole.html
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:42 pm      Reply with quote
elsaanna wrote:

Christelle Gélis, Stéphanie Girard, Alain Mavon, Maxence Delverdier, Nicole Paillous, Patricia Vicendo (2003)
Assessment of the skin photoprotective capacities of an organo-mineral broad-spectrum sunblock on two ex vivo skin models
Photodermatology, Photoimmunology & Photomedicine 19 (5), 242–253.

...... One sunblock preparation is a UVB absorber containing zinc oxide (ZnO) and titanium oxide (TiO2) exclusively. The other sunblock preparation is a new organo-mineral sunblock containing Tinosorb™ M, OCM, ZnO and TiO2. Evaluation of the photoprotective capacities of both preparations on hairless rat skin and on in vitro reconstructed human epidermis revealed that they were effective in preventing UVB-induced damage. In contrast, only the organo-mineral sunblock was effective in the prevention of UVA-specific damage such as dermal alterations characterized by the expression of vimentin.


Thanks elsaanna for your great research for us re: Tinosorb. It certainly looks like the best there is for UVA protection. So Avene seems to be the only brand that uses Tinosorb and that is the Tinosorb S formula...? Is there a SS available that contains Tinosorb M??
TIA

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Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:55 pm      Reply with quote
I use Avene Emulsion. It is in an orange tube, you can see my review in the review section, it was posted today. Anywho, it contains both type of Tinsorb! Only prob is that it must be ordered online from Europe. I almost wonder if it was the Avene Emulsion that they used in the last study posted there, since it also contains TiDi and ZiDi
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:24 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks amonavis for clearing that up for me! I was so confused about it, but you have helped.

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Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:37 pm      Reply with quote
No problem, you're welcome.
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Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:00 pm      Reply with quote
Another North American etailer for the Avene tinosorb sunscreen (and lots of other European sunscreens and skincare products as well) is frenchcosmeticsforless.com. Good customer service, and very fresh products. Sometimes there is a bit of a delay, since the owner doesn't keep a hefty stock on hand, and you may have to wait for a new shipment from France. But, when I can't get to Europe and need my Euro sunscreens, I order here.
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Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:56 pm      Reply with quote
Trilogy is also using tinsorb for an SPF of 15. Has anyone used it?

trilogy daily defence moisturiser with SPF15
http://www.trilogyproducts.com/index.php?page=daily-defence-moisturiser-with-spf15
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Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:57 am      Reply with quote
My memory on the subject is fuzzy. However, Aren't there two different mexoryls and two different tinosorbs? Iknow the labels are A and B but some letter following each. Each of the four different chemicals protects in a slightly different UVA range? And only one or two of them are approved in Canada, none in the US, and all in most European countries?

THe point I'm trying to get at is the slight differences in range of protection. A mix of things would logically provide better protection *IF* my memory about protection ranges is true.
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