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sunscreen and MMU
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guapagirl
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Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:53 am      Reply with quote
OK, with all the threads flying about SS, it seems that MMU de-activates chemical sunscreens. Thing is, I thought the minerals in mmu were effectively inert (apart from bis ox) so how would that impact on SS? Also, regular foundation contains the same minerals but just in smaller quantities so does regular foundation also de-activate chemical sunscreens?

I'm finding this all so confusing, I'm tempted to say stuff skincare, I'm gonna tan myself til I look like a rhino's scrotum! Cool

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Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:00 am      Reply with quote
How much would it reduce our protection if we use avo-based sunscreen with foundation that contains titanium dioxide?
avalange
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Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:08 am      Reply with quote
guapa,

i see your point...
i go through waves of clarity and then confusion... can i wear a light dusting of mmu over tinosorbs, for example? [sigh]

--avalange

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Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:46 pm      Reply with quote
there is scientific evidence TiO and ZnO destabilizes avobenzene. one way to prevent this is to make sure that the TiO and ZnO that is used in you MMU is silicone-covered (this would likely apply to regular makeup as well). Only way to find out is to ask the cosmetics company. I get the idea though that a majority of companies don't use specially coated TiO or ZnO and I'm not sure how much it actually destabilizes it--I Can't find many scientific articles on the studies. so if you are that worried about it, don't use ss with avobenzene or, prime your skin with Z-cote before applying MMU.
carolb69
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:15 am      Reply with quote
Someone on MUA told me to wait 20 min after applying sunscreen with avo in it. She said the sunscreen sinks in to the lower layer of your skin anyway and the MMU is on the top of our skin so the two dont really mix in togethor.Or the contact will be minimal. Well i havent explained it well but it made sense at the time.

Either way, i dont care anymore - im over it
Rolling Eyes I could probably do worse to my skn, like smoke, take drugs, eat heaps of crap Confused

Ive been applying my MMU over Bioderma sunscreen.

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m1rox
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:49 am      Reply with quote
Ha, we'll spend a lot of time waiting in the morning. In order to apply the quarter teaspoonful of sunscreen to the face (another quarter for the neck = FDA recommendations of half tsp), I was advised to apply a layer, then wait 10 mins, then apply another layer and so on until I used up the "dose". Otherwise if applied all at once, that amount of sunscreen would make the face look pretty gross and ruin the make up. Then if I have to wait another 20 mins before applying the make up......
avalange
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:58 am      Reply with quote
carolb69 wrote:
Someone on MUA told me to wait 20 min after applying sunscreen with avo in it. She said the sunscreen sinks in to the lower layer of your skin anyway and the MMU is on the top of our skin so the two dont really mix in togethor.Or the contact will be minimal. Well i havent explained it well but it made sense at the time.

Either way, i dont care anymore - im over it
Rolling Eyes I could probably do worse to my skn, like smoke, take drugs, eat heaps of crap Confused

Ive been applying my MMU over Bioderma sunscreen.


I'm going to go back to Bioderma now, which always made my skin feel radiant and very nice, never sticky and alien like the avenes (I AM going to try the avene 20, however, just to be sure). Yesterday I bought Bioderma photoderm AR cream for sensitive skin, which is tinted; I bought the fluide again, for those days I don't wear any powder or plan to do a light dusting later on in the day; and Avene emulsion ultra-fluide 20. All of these boxes claim that they are "new" formulations, so, as we say in France, on verra!
I have the luxury of buying these things really cheaply, since I'm in Paris and a bottle costs me around 8 euros, so I figure when I come back to the states I can donate the ones I don't like to very happy friends.

So far, the biodermas are in my opinion the most "wearable." They contain tinosorbs as well as avobenzone, but I'm wondering how much mineral mu actually destabilizes the ss if the tinosorbs are there to stabilize the avo in the first place....

--avalange

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carolb69
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:28 am      Reply with quote
Avalange I agree with your opinion on the Bioderma. Im really liking the Fluide and the AKN spray is good too. Neither of these feel heavy or look shiny or break me out. Im hoping even with makeup on top im still provided with more protection than alot of other sunscreens here in Aus.

Ive just tried the Avene 20 cream and think Bioderma is better.

Can you post a review on the photoderm cream? Ive been eying that off too Smile

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carolb69
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:42 am      Reply with quote
I found this on MUA

'Here's what I do. S/S experts please read on too. I don't want to give false information.

My understanding is that since avo is a chemical sunscreen it will absorb into the skin. Sunscreen directions usually tell you to apply 15-30 minutes before sun exposure so I'm guessing it takes that long for the avo to absorb and become effective. Mineral makeup just sits on top of the skin and doesn't absorb so my *guess* would be that as long as you wait 30 minutes for the avo to start working you can apply MMU and still be protected. However, this is just my reasoning. If I'm wrong or have overlooked some factors someone PLEASE correct me. HTH'


So I guess its just up to us what we want to believe - but I personally dont stress about it anymore.

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Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:27 am      Reply with quote
I save myself the aggravation by using physical sunscreen only. [Juice Beauty] The additional benefit of physical sunscreen is lack of wait time for it to be effective, unlike chemical sunscreens. I use a less expensive physical block on arms, legs and poolside to avoid the wait time as well. [Ocean & Potion organic]

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guapagirl
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:56 am      Reply with quote
athena123 wrote:
I save myself the aggravation by using physical sunscreen only. [Juice Beauty] The additional benefit of physical sunscreen is lack of wait time for it to be effective, unlike chemical sunscreens. I use a less expensive physical block on arms, legs and poolside to avoid the wait time as well. [Ocean & Potion organic]


but....I thought physical ones don't block UVA rays? That's why we want to use the chem ones because they do? Confused

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avalange
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:57 am      Reply with quote
athena123 wrote:
I save myself the aggravation by using physical sunscreen only. [Juice Beauty] The additional benefit of physical sunscreen is lack of wait time for it to be effective, unlike chemical sunscreens. I use a less expensive physical block on arms, legs and poolside to avoid the wait time as well. [Ocean & Potion organic]


Does anyone know how juice beauty comes up with their protection factor? I don't see anything in the ingredients that would qualify for even a 20 spf... titanium and mica oxides alone?

anyone with info, please advise.

--avalange

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Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:49 pm      Reply with quote
guapagirl wrote:
athena123 wrote:
I save myself the aggravation by using physical sunscreen only. [Juice Beauty] The additional benefit of physical sunscreen is lack of wait time for it to be effective, unlike chemical sunscreens. I use a less expensive physical block on arms, legs and poolside to avoid the wait time as well. [Ocean & Potion organic]


but....I thought physical ones don't block UVA rays? That's why we want to use the chem ones because they do? Confused


Would like to clarify before any MORE confusion starts - physical ss DO block UVA rays, it's just that Tinosorb and Mexoryl does it more effectively in conjunction with the physical ingredients.
guapagirl
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:54 pm      Reply with quote
sormuimui wrote:
guapagirl wrote:
athena123 wrote:
I save myself the aggravation by using physical sunscreen only. [Juice Beauty] The additional benefit of physical sunscreen is lack of wait time for it to be effective, unlike chemical sunscreens. I use a less expensive physical block on arms, legs and poolside to avoid the wait time as well. [Ocean & Potion organic]


but....I thought physical ones don't block UVA rays? That's why we want to use the chem ones because they do? Confused


Would like to clarify before any MORE confusion starts - physical ss DO block UVA rays, it's just that Tinosorb and Mexoryl does it more effectively in conjunction with the physical ingredients.


Yay! Very Happy

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avalange
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:31 pm      Reply with quote
sormuimui,

Then why does everyone say that tinosorb and mexoryl DEGRADE from combination with physical ss ingredients? That's the whole issue here... If we could combine them, MMU + ss would be optimal protection. That's why the new avene ss have specially coated minerals that do not destabilize the tinosorb--hence the better protection. Where did you get this info???

--avalange

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sormuimui
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:42 pm      Reply with quote
I read it while I was reading up on ss on pubmed. I'll try to find the articles again. Generally ZnO and TiO DO give UVA protection - that's not disputed, but I've read that they're more effective when used in conjunction with other chemical ingredients.

I can't find the exact article but here's one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=14535895&ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I also want to mention the fact that I DO NOT know the reason why and how ZnO and TiO in MMU degrade sunscreen ingredients. I'm just stating what I've read when looking up info about sunscreens.
marci65
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:52 pm      Reply with quote
I just stick to physical sunscreens in which ZnO and TiO are the only active ingredients, along with my MMU. I started doing this when my skin became sensitive and would burn/sting from chemical s/s. Not ideal sun protection, I know, but I also avoid the sun, wear hats, etc.
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:15 pm      Reply with quote
sormuimui wrote:
I read it while I was reading up on ss on pubmed. I'll try to find the articles again. Generally ZnO and TiO DO give UVA protection - that's not disputed, but I've read that they're more effective when used in conjunction with other chemical ingredients.

I can't find the exact article but here's one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=14535895&ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I also want to mention the fact that I DO NOT know the reason why and how ZnO and TiO in MMU degrade sunscreen ingredients. I'm just stating what I've read when looking up info about sunscreens.


its simply a chemical reaction. the ZnO and the TiO destablizes the avobenzone by interacting with its molecular structure. when it interacts, the stable form of avobenzone becomes unstable and thus less protective. i can give you a more scientific explanation, but it will be more complex than we all really need to know. lol.
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:30 pm      Reply with quote
ch3r wrote:
sormuimui wrote:
I read it while I was reading up on ss on pubmed. I'll try to find the articles again. Generally ZnO and TiO DO give UVA protection - that's not disputed, but I've read that they're more effective when used in conjunction with other chemical ingredients.

I can't find the exact article but here's one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=14535895&ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I also want to mention the fact that I DO NOT know the reason why and how ZnO and TiO in MMU degrade sunscreen ingredients. I'm just stating what I've read when looking up info about sunscreens.


its simply a chemical reaction. the ZnO and the TiO destablizes the avobenzone by interacting with its molecular structure. when it interacts, the stable form of avobenzone becomes unstable and thus less protective. i can give you a more scientific explanation, but it will be more complex than we all really need to know. lol.


See that's the thing, to me I've always just thought TiO and ZnO interacts with Avobenzone and not OTHER chemical ingredients like Tinosorb. It's just been grouped together on EDS and labeled as "MMU degrades chemical sunscreens" which in fact is not true as stated, it's actually "MMU degrades avobenzone, an ingredient commonly found in many chemical sunscreens".
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:51 pm      Reply with quote
Carolb69 and Avalange,

How on earth do you choose a bioderma product? They have so many sunscreens! Do you know of any sites that offer samples? I tried to contact them via http://lambda.orionis.fr/bioderma_com/english/contact.asp but every time I hit 'send' I get an error message.

Thanks!

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Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:07 pm      Reply with quote
Shawna i got mine here
http://www.skincarecentral.biz/skincare-sun.html

She only has 3 bioderma's. Ive tried all 3. The spray is very nice, same with the emulsion. The tinted cream was too dark. They really need to change that as it wouldnt suit alot of fair girls. My fave is the spray.

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Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:59 am      Reply with quote
sormuimui wrote:
ch3r wrote:
sormuimui wrote:
I read it while I was reading up on ss on pubmed. I'll try to find the articles again. Generally ZnO and TiO DO give UVA protection - that's not disputed, but I've read that they're more effective when used in conjunction with other chemical ingredients.

I can't find the exact article but here's one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=14535895&ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I also want to mention the fact that I DO NOT know the reason why and how ZnO and TiO in MMU degrade sunscreen ingredients. I'm just stating what I've read when looking up info about sunscreens.


its simply a chemical reaction. the ZnO and the TiO destablizes the avobenzone by interacting with its molecular structure. when it interacts, the stable form of avobenzone becomes unstable and thus less protective. i can give you a more scientific explanation, but it will be more complex than we all really need to know. lol.


See that's the thing, to me I've always just thought TiO and ZnO interacts with Avobenzone and not OTHER chemical ingredients like Tinosorb. It's just been grouped together on EDS and labeled as "MMU degrades chemical sunscreens" which in fact is not true as stated, it's actually "MMU degrades avobenzone, an ingredient commonly found in many chemical sunscreens".


So you could use a physical sunscreen that has tinosorb and still use MMU without the SS loosing it's effectivenes?

Runs off crying to stick head in the sand (no uva or uvb there!)

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Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:06 am      Reply with quote
GG: That's what I deduced from what I've read. But I'm definitely open to someone proving me wrong because I am totally not an expert on this subject. That is also why I just purchased an Avene to use when I'm back in HK as I need all the UVA protection I can get. I don't think any of the threads on EDS mention Tinosorb degrading, all the talk as always been on Avobenzone which lead to talk about LRP because it contains Avobenzone.
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Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:12 am      Reply with quote
sormuimui wrote:
GG: That's what I deduced from what I've read. But I'm definitely open to someone proving me wrong because I am totally not an expert on this subject. That is also why I just purchased an Avene to use when I'm back in HK as I need all the UVA protection I can get. I don't think any of the threads on EDS mention Tinosorb degrading, all the talk as always been on Avobenzone which lead to talk about LRP because it contains Avobenzone.


:Brushes sand from hair:

so, any good Physical sunscreens with tinosorb in them? Laughing

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Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:17 am      Reply with quote
Tinosorbs are chemicals, so you can't get a physical sunscreen with tinosorbs, it would be a mixed physical and chemical sunscreen. Sunscreens without avobenzone that contain tinosorbs are from Avene and Galenic brands. Those are the ones I know of.
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