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Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:15 pm  |
I'm looking for a mineral sunblock that has only Titanium and Zinc as it's active ingredients and which all of it's inactive ingredients are natural and certified organic. Also where the Titanium and Zinc are NOT micronized but normal size. I heard the micronized ones are so small that they can absorb into the skin and body and cause toxicity. But the normal size ones don't penetrate the deep layers of the skin because they are not small enough to do so and just stay on top of the skin and wash off.
I don't think such a product exists as what I am looking for. Although it should. Does anyone know if such a type of product is out there? Thanks.  |
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Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:48 pm |
Hi sexy 
Doesn't quite exist, but nearly.
http://www.greenpeople-organic-health.co.uk/Greenpeople_About_Us.htm
Their products are " 100% natural, certified organic"
The only caveat is that their sunscreens' Titanium dioxide IS micronised, but it is also encapsulated, which means it should not penetrate the skin. They used a brand of titanium dioxide called 'z-cote'.
I raised this micronised mineral screen penetration question before on the board and I'm informed that this is a theoretical concern there's no actual evidence or research proving it happens. They didn't say where they got their info from though. If you're very exacting and need to know for sure ask Bad Bird - she said it.
What do you think, is it suitable for you?
M |
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Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:09 pm |
Molly,
I wish you wouldn't go round giving wrong information. First it was about Mexoryl, and now about encapsulated minerals and Z-cote.
The fact that a mineral is encapsulated is not to prevent it from "penetrating" the skin, nor does it mean because it is encapsulated, it "should not penetrate the skin". Encapsulation serves to prevent reactivity of the mineral, decreasing the sensitivity of skin to it and improving the mineral's photostability.
And Z-cote is encapsulated ZINC OXIDE, NOT Titanium Dioxide. |
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Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:45 pm |
Bad Bird
My main point about Mexoryl was that it seems users find it gummy, oily, greasy. and I made a mistake saying it HAD to be used in an oil base. I find your answers never seem to address my main points they just pick at small technical details. GREASY seems to be a big issue when I read the BB thread.
Fine, I'll look through the thread again on encapsulated minerals. Again a technical point probably not relevant to the MAIN question. You say there is no evidence of micronised minerals penetrating the skin, this is useful for the person who asked the question so I pass it on.
I find a lot of what you say useful and interesting, but some people do not want to use 'chemical' sunscreens for their own reasons and I imagine if you were left to answer these people you would just trash the products entirely and I don't believe from all the things I've read outside of this forum that it's a balanced view.
A lot of people ask you, that's fine, but there other OTHER views from valid sources.
 M |
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Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:47 pm |
| ...and I don't claim to be offering professional, extremely technical advice (not that I'm accusing you of that either), but this is a users forum - we pass on our experience and knowledge in layman's terms and sometimes that might appear too simplified for you. |
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Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:55 pm |
| EDS users quite frequently make small technical mistakes about things on other subjects, but no-one jumps on every single little thing. It just seems to be the sunscreen threads that cause this. Why is that? |
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Mabsy
Moderator
 
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:36 am |
| Molly wrote: |
| It just seems to be the sunscreen threads that cause this. Why is that? |
I don't know Molly... but there is no need for that here AT ALL 
Bad Bird - incidentally, and this is not to say that you are wrong, I read just two days ago an article (about "state of the art" skincare of the last decade) that the point of encapsulation is to also prevent the chemical being absorbed into the top layer of the skin thus causing irritation. This was when they were talking about the Sisley All Day All Year sunblock (what a price tag that is! ). |
_________________
45, NW20, combination skin |
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:33 pm |
Check out Living nature and aubrey organics sunblock @www.bewellstaywell.com
Personally I'm all about organic products, and I never use sunscreen (except when I go diving, I use Dr. Hauschka). (I know, alot of people want to lynch me for that...). I live in Miami Beach too, I'm Swedish, and I have never burnt my skin. I love the ocean and always use a cowboy-hat as natural shade. I also wear sometimes Jane Iredale powder which has sunscreen in it. Earth's Beauty also has an organic powder with natural sunscreen in it. My skin has no wrinkles and I'm almost 30, but I take really good care of my skin. I meditate on the sun being healthy for me and so far so good...  |
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swimmer
New Member
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 5
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:47 pm |
| I don't know about the organic part, but there are 2 that I like: Peter Thomas Roth Titanium Dioxide Sunblock SPF 30 and Mustela. PTR has 12% zinc oxide and 5% titanium dioxide. Mustela is for baby and kids, and you can buy it in Nordstrom's children department. Mustela is not as white as PTR but they are both very white. |
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:00 pm |
Thanks. GreenPeople look ok but it looks like they are in the UK. Do they have any US distributors so they are not shipping all the way from the UK? Also it doesn't seem to work on my browser when I click on the ingredients link on the products. So I can't see what the ingredients are. Where do you see on there that it says they are encapsulated or that they are micronized? The downside of reg. size minerals is that it will be a bit chalky, but if it's safer I don't mind.
Living nature, I tried a trial size of their sunscreen and while I liked the ingredients, it smelled so bad. Aubrey's has Paba in it, which I'm not saying is bad, I just don't know anything about it. And Dr. Hauschka has aluminum in their sunscreens. Seems odd. A lot of these products don't state that their minerals are micronized or not or what size they are. But I still wonder if they are anyways. Or else how do they get it to not be whitish or chalky like the old days of it.
This product doesn't say any of it's ingredients are organic, but I like how simple the ingredient list is. I would like to find the same thing, but with organic certification. If not then I'll probably just go with this one.
http://www.nonieofbeverlyhills.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=18
I'm almost 30 too and I have no wrinkles. But I would like to keep it that way. I never really expected to have wrinkles so early, I guess I consider 30 pretty young still. But it can take a while to catch up with you. I grew up in the sun, with no protection usually.
Where I heard about it is I read this article on about how Sunscreens including mineral ones are toxic. Didn't say much though. Then I saw another article that said that these minerals are safe and it's only the micronized ones that cause a problem.
This was the first article I read:
http://www.terressentials.com/truthaboutsunscreens.html
And the second article:
http://www.organicmakeup.ca/CA/titaniumdioxide.asp
"Kumazawa, et. al. in their study, "Effects of Titanium Ions and Particles on Neutrophil Function and Morphology" concluded that cytotoxicity (danger to the cell) was dependent on the particle size of titanium dioxide. The smaller the particle size, the more toxic it is (see Table 2). This conclusion is relevant to the consumer because of the cosmetics industry's increasing use of micronized pigments in sunscreens and colour cosmetics. Nanoparticles of titanium dioxide are used in sunscreens because they are colourless at that size and still absorb ultraviolet light. Many cosmetic companies are capitalizing on metal oxide nanoparticles. We have seen, however, that if titanium dioxide particles used to act as a sunscreen are small enough, they can penetrate the cells, leading to photocatalysis within the cell, causing DNA damage after exposure to sunlight (Powell, et. al. 1996) The fear is that this could lead to cancer in the skin. Studies with subjects who applied sunscreens with micronized titanium dioxide daily for 2-4 weeks showed that the skin can absorb microfine particles. These particles were seen in the percutaneous layers of the skin under UV light. Coarse or fine particles of titanium dioxide are safe and effective at deflecting and absorbing UV light, protecting the skin, but consumers should avoid using products with micronized mineral pigments, either in sunscreens or colour cosmetics." |
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:25 pm |
Hello sexy
Unfortunately you would have to have the Greenpeople flown in from the UK as far as I can see.
They don't seem to say it uses Z-cote now, but I must have seen that in the ingredients list, because I remember being surprised. They're targetting the 'natural' market and, as you say, there are fears about it penetrating the skin. I think they've developed a scripting error on their site. I can't access the ingredients now either, says 'void'.
I've also read and read about these fears about mineral sunscreens and I really can't decide which side to believe either.
Have you also considered Skinbio's sunscreens. They are also of the opinion that micronising could be harmful so they still have the opaque stuff - not organic though.
http://www.suntanscience.com/
the other ingredients might put you off.
M |
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:37 pm |
Hello HappyHippy,
I'm really pleased to hear about your very individual sun protection strategies  especially the meditation. It's not something I'd have thought of before. Might try it myself, although I already consider the sun my friend.
Seriously, I think the health benefits of the sun are real and rather overlooked these days. I guess because the dangers of the sun were ignored for some time it's had a see-saw effect on thinking.
M |
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:20 pm |
Sexy, I finally managed to access your preferred Beverly Hills formula.
IMHO it sounds like a really bad idea. I don't know if you know this, but AHA's are chemical exfoliants. Most people use them at night so that their skin can heal before sun exposure. AHA's and sun is a really bad combination, because you're dissolving the uppermost layers of your skin. I know it also has mineral screens, but if you were considering this for some kind of outdoor, strong sunshine activity it sounds terrible.
If you haven't got wrinkles now I think you might get them very quickly. Sorry, M |
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:46 pm |
Or sexy, seeing as you like simplicity.
How about this
http://www.trcbio.net/acatalog/Moisturizers.html
"Squalane Lipid Replenish (2 oz)
Restores and protects when outdoors with non-toxic UV protectants. Contains pure and safe titanium dioxide to help reflect UV rays and has high levels of the skin's natural sunblockers such as squalane and allantoin"
Squalane is derived from olive oil. Not sure how protective this is, but it's got to be better than using AHA's.
This is only on Skinbio's new European site, but I bet it's available in the US too, maybe they haven't updated yet - their US site's such a complicated mess they might never manage it.
M |
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Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:50 pm |
Thanks Molly. Do you think that AHA's are bad to use period or just during the day? I thought that they were ok to use during the day and that there were a lot of day moisturizers that have them in them.
I just looked at the stuff I have already and it doesn't say what it's ingredients are, only it's active ingredient that is Titanium dioxide. I looked it up though and found a site about it listing all of it's ingredients. I think this is the normal kind of titanium because this stuff is very white and pasty. That's actually why I started looking for a different sunscreen because I wanted to find one I could use everyday that wasn't so noticeable. That was before I started reading all this stuff about the micronized titanium and all. So I might just be better off sticking with this one. I don't think it's something I would use daily though since it's so pasty. Probably just for when I'm really going to be outdoors for any length of time. I would like to find something very safe and natural even if it is a lot milder for daily use. I heard that neem oil and jojoba oil both offer some natural UV protection. I'm sure it's not real high but it's something. Then there is the this clothing. http://www.sunprecautions.com
Here is the site on it:
http://www.suncarecentral.com/WhyUse.asp
Here is another good article on Sunscreens, called Sunscam.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/1998/05/wellbeing.html
And a great article on Vitamin D
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20041009/bob8.asp |
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Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:29 am |
AHAs are used by lots of us including me, daily, often or sometimes. It's a very positive ingredient in anti-aging with a lot of benefits. And has been used at least since the time of Cleopatra - she wrote a book about it.
Some also like to use them by day , but I don't think anyone who cares or knows about skin would use them in the daytime without an effective sunscreen over it.
Maybe the moisturisers you're seeing have extremely small amounts of AHAs in them. The BH page said it was highly concentrated, use sparingly and this is another reason why I think it's the strangest 'sunscreen' I ever saw, because if you only use it sparingly you can't be covering your face with the minerals effectively enough. It's really contradictory. |
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Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:34 am |
| check out
www.totalblock.com |
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Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:29 am |
interesting stuff, i bought some avene physical sunscreen and i was surprised that it uses micronized titanium dioxide..
can someone tell with regards to lrp which one is the physical one. I don't want a chemical one as my skin is attracting the heat too much..
thanks |
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Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:10 pm |
Hi Robbojnr
Do la Roche Posay do a physical screen? I can't find one. Maybe if you ask on the BB and other sunscreeners thread they might know more about it.
Are you finding the Avene physical unsatisfactory in terms of use or is it just these new fears that are putting you off?
I don't know if I'd worry too much about all this micronized absorption business. It does appear to be based on theoretical fears. I can't find anywhere that seems to show it's true. I still wonder where BB got her information - it would be nice if she'd tell us because some of us prefer to use mineral screens.
Are you a man or a woman, I'm not sure. But something else you could look into is mineral makeup. This can be used post-laser procedures and gives some sun protection and is supposed not to irritate delicate skin. Men use it too, but I think it would take some practice for it not to show too much.
http://www.janeiredale.com/whyminerals/whyminerals.html
I read about your skin problems in other threads. Sounds terrible. I don't know if you've had some better advice now. Maybe you've had more than you can handle. I think my priority would be repair first, but then maybe you have to be out in the sun - I dunno.
Have you looked at Skinbio's range. It was first developed for 'at risk' and 'compromised' skin - for seriously damaged hospital patients. Their anti-aging line is a spin off from this. It's extremely healing.
http://www.bioheal.com/
Hope I haven't given you too much.
Good luck
Molly |
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Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:38 pm |
| I would suggest taking a look at Dr. Hauschka's sunscreens. Their product line has an excellent reputation and I know their sunscreens are quite popular. |
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Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:11 am |
hi molly
well my condition hasnt got better, i came off my anti-depressants and since then my skin has gone mad...
generally it itches 24/7 like a prickly heat feeling and i do try to avoid goin out now cause when i do my face gets really hot and becomes photosenstive...i am going the physical sun route because of the heat my skin is generating and i know that the chemical ones absorb the heat plus making the situation worse.
i have looked at many sunscreens, i know that lrp do a physical suscreen but i dont know were to buy their sunscreens in the uk, the problem with avene's sunscreen is that it has so many parabens and also has mineral oil...but at the moment im at my wit ends...
a new sunscreen has come out called z0-1 and is in selfridges it is jus micronized zinc oxide....
anyway i will take a look at those sites, and i should see a derm really..as i have been seeing a naturopath and trying to do it from within but no joy..
and by the way i am a bloke
cheers |
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Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:26 am |
hi Robbojnr, if it's the bases in the Avene and others you've tried that is irritating your skin have you considered one of Avene's sun compacts.
It is going to look a bit like makeup, but then if your face is itching like crazy and it helps it might be worth it.
Either that or the mineral makeup is dry, no base to irritate your skin.
Just a thought, Molly |
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Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:58 pm |
molly
i have been using living nature sunscreen which i quite like bcos, although it does make me look like a snowman..
the problem i was thinking there mightbe with micronized mineral sunscreens is that would it absorb heat ... |
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Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:49 pm |
Hi Robbojnr
If there's something you can actually tolerate maybe you should stick with it until your skin's a bit better.
I'm unsure about the micronised Titanium attracting heat. If it just sits on your skin surface it's supposed to be 'inert' and should just deflect the light, ie. not absorb. If it's not encapsulated then it might be 'reactive' and this can irritate sensitive skin. If it's absorbed and reactive that could certainly trigger some reaction. Sorry, it's beginning to sound like an eternal riddle to me. Too many 'if's.
I've asked one of the green companies why they use micronised Titanium dioxide and what they think about the chances of it penetrating the skin. I'd like to know how they come to their decision with so much conflicting evidence around. Perhaps they can clarify this for us. I'll let you know what they say.
M |
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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:12 am |
| I'm still on a quest for more options for good physical blocks...still; using the skinceuticals physical formula..i keep looking for other sunblocks and when i read the inactive ingredients i get such silly results..such as parabens being first on the list..or ingredients that shouldn't be there... |
_________________
Extremely fair/sensitive skin(mild rosacea)that burns very easy.acne is rare/skin is dry.27 years old. |
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